Question: Integrated Vs. Add-on Options

[Darren Harris]

Can anyone tell if if integrated options on a motherbaord, like video,
audio, firewire, ect., a better idea than using add-on cards if the
priority is to avoid configuration problems when building a system?

Thanks a lot.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

 

[DaveW]

On-board video is a VERY bad idea. It uses a cheap video chipset that runs
3D poorly and puts a real strain on the CPU and system RAM that slows the
system down.

 

[Dick Sidbury]

Can anyone tell if if integrated options on a motherbaord, like video,
audio, firewire, ect., a better idea than using add-on cards if the
priority is to avoid configuration problems when building a system?

Thanks a lot.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

It depends. I'd say that built in USB, Firewire, serial, parallel,
network are better on the motherboard.

Sound is probably at least as good on the MB and definitely cheaper.

RAID is probably better in terms of configuration but probably not as
good in terms of performance.

Video is likely to be worse on board just because of performance,
although I have two systems with dual video in Shuttle barebones
systems. But these systems are for video editing and web work rather
than game play.

Obviously YMMV, IMHO.

dick

 

[JAD]

The most important thing is "what are you going to with it"? Giving
any advice without knowing this, is merely speculation.

 

[Christopher Pollard]

Can anyone tell if if integrated options on a motherbaord, like video,
audio, firewire, ect., a better idea than using add-on cards if the
priority is to avoid configuration problems when building a system?

It will avoid configuration problems, and all the drivers will go in easily, but
onboard video is not such a good idea. Audio, firewire, network etc. will be
fine though.

Chris Pollard

 

[mcheu]

It will avoid configuration problems, and all the drivers will go in easily, but
onboard video is not such a good idea. Audio, firewire, network etc. will be
fine though.

Chris Pollard

I beg to differ on the audio front. While there are good performers
in integrated audio like nVidia's SoundStorm (integrated with
nForce2Ultra), the more common integrated audio chipsets are from
Realtek and Cirrus Logic. Audio quality will be good, but there will
be a performance penalty involved, and not just in gaming. If you're
doing something that's CPU intensive and using the audio capabilities,
you may experience some weirdness. Noteably, some general
sluggishness, or some glitching in the audio playback/recording.

 

[Conor]

Can anyone tell if if integrated options on a motherbaord, like video,
audio, firewire, ect., a better idea than using add-on cards if the
priority is to avoid configuration problems when building a system?

For a low end system it's OK but for high end work no. Onboard audio
for example may cause lower framerates in intensive action in games.
There is NO difference with configuration problems between onboard and
dedicated.

 

[~misfit~]

DaveW wrote:

On-board video is a VERY bad idea. It uses a cheap video chipset
that runs 3D poorly and puts a real strain on the CPU and system RAM
that slows the system down.

What a wide ranging and crap statement that is! If office use is all the
machine is going to be used for then on-board graphics are fine. If it's a
home machine and a little light gaming may come into it then an nForce 2
mobo with integrated GeForce 4 graphics may be more than adequate.

I'm into gaming and wouldn't personally use on-board graphics but also I
wouldn't make such a broad statement as you did without knowing to what use
the computer is going to be put.

The question was quantified by "if the priority is to avoid configuration
problems when building a system". Doesn't say jack about gaming there does
it?

 

[kony]

DaveW wrote:

What a wide ranging and crap statement that is!

LOL.

I laugh with you, not at you.

Ya know, DaveW's on a streak, it seems intentional... might be a whole
new breed of "hit and run troll".

 

[kony]

I beg to differ on the audio front. While there are good performers
in integrated audio like nVidia's SoundStorm (integrated with
nForce2Ultra), the more common integrated audio chipsets are from
Realtek and Cirrus Logic. Audio quality will be good, but there will
be a performance penalty involved, and not just in gaming. If you're
doing something that's CPU intensive and using the audio capabilities,
you may experience some weirdness. Noteably, some general
sluggishness, or some glitching in the audio playback/recording.
----------------------------------------

I'd have to differ with that...

Audio quality for most every integrated audio is poor unless it's
exclusively digital... analog in and out is poor. Apparently there isn't
enough real-estate on motherboards for sufficient filtering.

I dont know that the performance penalty is all that significant though,
the price differential of the less-CPU-intensive solutions often makes it
cost effective to just buy a faster CPU if that small performance penalty
during audio playback is really THAT important.

I've not noticed this sluggishness or glitching you refer to though, but
most of the low-end integrated audio I've been dealing with is from CMI
8738 chipset... then again, my old Aureal Vortex cards sound better than
nForce soundstorm does, not referring to gaming but general 2D sound.

 

[kony]

Can anyone tell if if integrated options on a motherbaord, like video,
audio, firewire, ect., a better idea than using add-on cards if the
priority is to avoid configuration problems when building a system?

Thanks a lot.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

Well you've received a lot of feedback about (a lot of things outside your
question).

Onboard integrated features may have their IRQs set better, which is good
for the simple old OS, but Windows can reassign IRQs so that's not as
significant anymore, plus you can always swap around PCI cards to
different slots.

Otherwise you'll have the same configuration issues with the integrated
feature(s) as you would with same chipset (or in some cases, very similar
technology or system performance requirements) add-on cards. RAID cards
are no different than integrated if they have same chipset (which many do)
except onboard RAID is often the "lite" BIOS version so only RAID 0, 1, or
0 +1 are options.

Onboard video is the same, if that particular chipset wouldn't be
problematic as an AGP card you shouldn't expect problems as an integrated
feature. Same with network adapter except they almost always work fine,
just a bit slower and higher CPU utilization (not very significant) than
high-end solutions like Intel Pro adapters. Sound can be more troublesome
but that's mostly due to quick-n-dirty drivers, either it works or else
most people abandon it for a similarly cheap $10 audio card. If you know
you need very high-end pro quality or special featured audio then you'll
want to buy the exact audio card you need.

The bottom line is that you should build the system you want, keeping your
fingers crossed but mostly putting a fair amount of research into the
particular motherboard, for example in motherboard forums like
http://forums.amdmb.com or a newsgroup dedicated to the respective
motherboard manufacturer. Don't get in a rush and impulse buy the
cheapest (thing) out there.

If you use common, fairly modern hardware from the larger manufacturers
there's a lower chance of configuration or compatibility problems, and the
better motherboard manufacturers will issue an appropriate number of BIOS
revisions to combat any bugs, sometimes even issues with particular
popular hardware that isn't really a motherboard problem per se.

Keeping the details you accumulate in mind, you can just build it any way
you want, integrated or non. For the most part building systems is TOO
easy, you'll get overconfident and overlook something obvious while
getting wrapped up in the finer details... it helps to be fully awake, no
after-midnight builds.

 

[Darren Harris]

For a low end system it's OK but for high end work no. Onboard audio
for example may cause lower framerates in intensive action in games.
There is NO difference with configuration problems between onboard and
dedicated.

Dedicated?

Anyway, thanks everyone for the input. I already know about the
performance issues, which is why I said, the priority is to avoid
configuration problems.

I want to transfer my video(and audio) card to a new SCSI system I'm
building to fill in until I get a higher-end video card.(Audio is no
big deal). But just in case they give me problems, I want the system
to have audio and video built-in to fall back on. I'm assuming that
the integrated options will not be a hinderance to performance when I
have the add-on cards installed, correct?

Also, am I correct in assuming that the higher end mobos tend not to
have audio and video integrated?

I'm looking to go with a Pentium 2.4 minimum, with the option to
upgrade to a more powerful Penium 4.(So the mobo must support a 400FSB
as well as an 800FSB). The other option is to spring for an Athlon64
so I can be a little more future proof.

I say that because I may get into competitive PC gaming next year, at
which point I want to eliminate anything that will cut in to the CPU
and ram resurces.

Thanks a lot.

Darren Harris
Staten ISland, New York.

 

[Gary Tait]

Dedicated?

Anyway, thanks everyone for the input. I already know about the
performance issues, which is why I said, the priority is to avoid
configuration problems.

I want to transfer my video(and audio) card to a new SCSI system I'm
building to fill in until I get a higher-end video card.(Audio is no
big deal). But just in case they give me problems, I want the system
to have audio and video built-in to fall back on. I'm assuming that
the integrated options will not be a hinderance to performance when I
have the add-on cards installed, correct?

Also, am I correct in assuming that the higher end mobos tend not to
have audio and video integrated?

In my looking, all current motherboards have sound, and all full ATX
board have no video (you have to go micro ATX for that AFAIK). You can
disable most on board resouces in favour of add-in card.

I'm looking to go with a Pentium 2.4 minimum, with the option to
upgrade to a more powerful Penium 4.(So the mobo must support a 400FSB
as well as an 800FSB). The other option is to spring for an Athlon64
so I can be a little more future proof.

I say that because I may get into competitive PC gaming next year, at
which point I want to eliminate anything that will cut in to the CPU
and ram resurces.

Thanks a lot.

Darren Harris
Staten ISland, New York.

I'd consider a full ATX system, and get a budget 3D card, which will
be much better than on-board video, for gaming.

 

[Darren Harris]

Well you've received a lot of feedback about (a lot of things outside your

question).

Onboard integrated features may have their IRQs set better, which is good
for the simple old OS, but Windows can reassign IRQs so that's not as
significant anymore, plus you can always swap around PCI cards to
different slots.

Yeah, but after I spend all that time swapping between slots and it
still doesn't work...(I've had a lot of bad luck).

Otherwise you'll have the same configuration issues with the integrated
feature(s) as you would with same chipset (or in some cases, very similar
technology or system performance requirements) add-on cards. RAID cards
are no different than integrated if they have same chipset (which many do)
except onboard RAID is often the "lite" BIOS version so only RAID 0, 1, or
0 +1 are options.

I have RAID hardware, but it appears to be a pain in the butt. My
overiding goal is to be able to manually copy my entire "C" drive to
an equal sized drive/partition. And use siad drive in place of the "C"
if something goes wrong. That sounds simple, but in six years I've yet
to find an *easy* way to do this.

Onboard video is the same, if that particular chipset wouldn't be
problematic as an AGP card you shouldn't expect problems as an integrated
feature. Same with network adapter except they almost always work fine,
just a bit slower and higher CPU utilization (not very significant) than
high-end solutions like Intel Pro adapters. Sound can be more troublesome
but that's mostly due to quick-n-dirty drivers, either it works or else
most people abandon it for a similarly cheap $10 audio card. If you know
you need very high-end pro quality or special featured audio then you'll
want to buy the exact audio card you need.

The bottom line is that you should build the system you want, keeping your
fingers crossed but mostly putting a fair amount of research into the
particular motherboard, for example in motherboard forums like
http://forums.amdmb.com or a newsgroup dedicated to the respective
motherboard manufacturer. Don't get in a rush and impulse buy the
cheapest (thing) out there.

I've spent over 100 hours already "researching". So I don't think I'm
rushing. This is why Dell, Compaq, ect. make so much money. People
just don't want to be, or can't be bothered with the perils of
building their own systems. The day that everything is *really* easy
to install, and "plug and play" is the norm, is the day companies like
Dell go out of business.

If you use common, fairly modern hardware from the larger manufacturers
there's a lower chance of configuration or compatibility problems, and the
better motherboard manufacturers will issue an appropriate number of BIOS
revisions to combat any bugs, sometimes even issues with particular
popular hardware that isn't really a motherboard problem per se.

Yeah, there's that compatability thing again.

Keeping the details you accumulate in mind, you can just build it any way
you want, integrated or non. For the most part building systems is TOO
easy, you'll get overconfident and overlook something obvious while
getting wrapped up in the finer details... it helps to be fully awake, no
after-midnight builds.

I don't think building systems is "too easy". Questions like mine on
the newsgroups prove that.

Nevertheless, I'm basically looking for a mobo that will support The
Pentium Extreme Edition, which I plan to get when the price comes
down.

But in the meantime I want to use a cheaper CPU on the board. This is
just me attempting to be a little "future-proof". I don't want to
spend a lot initially, but don't want to have to upgrade the
motherboard anytime soon.

I'm looking at getting and cannabalizing a barebones system for
this(See below). But the chipset may cause problems, because I don't
think Dual Chanel ram is supported.:

DOF PCPC-533V Intel Celeron (400FSB/DDR/32V/S/L/USB2.0) Tested Value
Barebone Systems
• Boxed Intel Celeron Socket 478 2.4GHz (400FSB) CPU w/128K L2 Cache
• U8668D P4 Socket 478 P4M266A/8235 (400FSB/ATA133/USB2.0) uATX
Motherboard
• Integrated S3 SavagePro Graphics upto 32MB Video
• In-Win V500 Mini Tower Micro ATX Case w/250Watts Power Supply P4 &
USB2.0
• Integrated AC 97 6Ch Digital Audio
• Integrated 10/100BaseT Network Lan

Thanks a lot.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

 

[Dick Sidbury]

I've spent over 100 hours already "researching". So I don't think I'm
rushing. This is why Dell, Compaq, ect. make so much money. People
just don't want to be, or can't be bothered with the perils of
building their own systems. The day that everything is *really* easy
to install, and "plug and play" is the norm, is the day companies like
Dell go out of business.

I disagree. These companies will stay in business simply because they
can build systems of equal quality to home built cheaper because they
buy in such quantity that they get better prices.

Now homebuilt systems will always be around because it's fun to build
them AND even though they (Dell and others) COULD build what I want and
sell it to me for less than I could build it, they don't.

dick

 

[kony]

Yeah, but after I spend all that time swapping between slots and it
still doesn't work...(I've had a lot of bad luck).

Apparently you have had a lot of bad luck. For the most part you could
just throw the cards in without a care in the world and they'd work,
though in some cases there were issues like sound or video cards hogging
the bus or chipsets with flaky/slow PCI bus (Via 686 southbridge in
particular). Of course there are other possibilities, but for the most
part you are taking a gamble either way, moreso if you don't do the
researching of parts first, but most people do set up (both, integrated or
non-integrated) without significant problems.

I have RAID hardware, but it appears to be a pain in the butt. My
overiding goal is to be able to manually copy my entire "C" drive to
an equal sized drive/partition. And use siad drive in place of the "C"
if something goes wrong. That sounds simple, but in six years I've yet
to find an *easy* way to do this.

Huh? The software that comes with the retail packaged drives should do
so. You don't mention your RAID config though. Popular cloning programs
like DriveImage or Ghost are also widely used.

I've spent over 100 hours already "researching". So I don't think I'm
rushing. This is why Dell, Compaq, ect. make so much money. People
just don't want to be, or can't be bothered with the perils of
building their own systems. The day that everything is *really* easy
to install, and "plug and play" is the norm, is the day companies like
Dell go out of business.

Not necessarily, some people don't want to do it themselves... two kinds
of people in the world: hands-on and, not.

There are a lot of other reasons to pick homebuild or OEM besides
configuration "issues". Price, part selection, features, expandability,
customization, out-of-warranty repair costs, no need for OEM-bundled
software (added cost of it), desire to overclock, the overall feeling that
OEMs build systems out of polished mid-grade parts for the most part, not
really GOOD parts except with very limited selection and at a price
premium.

Yeah, there's that compatability thing again.

Let me put it like this-

I have drawers full of hardware, and enough systems that I lost count long
ago. For the most part I can just throw any combination of parts together
and expect it to work, it's unusual for any problems to arise, and even
more unusual to have problems that aren't well-known issues with the
particular hardware (where the research comes into play beforehand).

I don't think building systems is "too easy". Questions like mine on
the newsgroups prove that.

But you're not really asking a specific question regarding a problem,
you're expecting a problem with no specific reason to yet (jumping into
the great black hole of "what if" abyss).

Nevertheless, I'm basically looking for a mobo that will support The
Pentium Extreme Edition, which I plan to get when the price comes
down.

Why? It'll always be disproportionately priced, horrible value, and given
your apprehension of the whole build-a-system process, you'll probably
wait too long before upgrading again so you'd be paying premium price for
just a moment's worth of great performance instead of upgrading again on a
regular interval.

But in the meantime I want to use a cheaper CPU on the board. This is
just me attempting to be a little "future-proof". I don't want to
spend a lot initially, but don't want to have to upgrade the
motherboard anytime soon.

But this doesn't really have much to do with whether you get a board with
a lot of integrated features. Any decent board will allow disabling any
integrated features if you don't want to use them. Just don't lock
yourself into a system with limited expansion capability (too few PCI
slots and/or no AGP slot) unless reducing the size of the system case is
the most important factor.

I'm looking at getting and cannabalizing a barebones system for
this(See below). But the chipset may cause problems, because I don't
think Dual Chanel ram is supported.:

DOF PCPC-533V Intel Celeron (400FSB/DDR/32V/S/L/USB2.0) Tested Value
Barebone Systems
• Boxed Intel Celeron Socket 478 2.4GHz (400FSB) CPU w/128K L2 Cache
• U8668D P4 Socket 478 P4M266A/8235 (400FSB/ATA133/USB2.0) uATX
Motherboard
• Integrated S3 SavagePro Graphics upto 32MB Video
• In-Win V500 Mini Tower Micro ATX Case w/250Watts Power Supply P4 &
USB2.0
• Integrated AC 97 6Ch Digital Audio
• Integrated 10/100BaseT Network Lan

It looks cheap. Biostar.

Did your last system have these low-end parts? If so, no wonder you had
problems. Testing and followup support, bios upgrades, etc, cost the
manufacturer $, and so the buyer as well.

Don't buy junk. Don't buy a barebones assembled to be very cheap else
you're asking for more problems. That's more likely to give you grief
than whether things are integrated onto a board or not.
Buy a decent foundation for a system. Intel or Asus motherboard, 300+W
name-brand power supply, decent heatsink, memory, etc.

Prosavage video is poor performance but IS ok if you don't need to do
gaming or anything else demanding... would be fine for 4 year old games or
DVD/video, median sized image editing, office/'net/email/etc.

 

[~misfit~]

Keeping the details you accumulate in mind, you can just build it any
way you want, integrated or non. For the most part building systems
is TOO easy, you'll get overconfident and overlook something obvious
while getting wrapped up in the finer details... it helps to be fully
awake, no after-midnight builds.

LOL. I attempted to build a machine after midnite last night, decided I
wanted a Win98SE machine to play some of my older games and to put a SCSI
card in so I can use my old SCSI scanner (no XP/2k drivers available for
it). Just used a cheapo desktop case I had lying around that has good
ventilation, not many older desktops that have places for two 90mm fans (I
get sick of towers everywhere). It's based on a Gigabyte/Via mobo that I
know worked last time I used it, with a Celly Tualatin 1.3GHz CPU. Well,
after gashing myself twice on sharp edges on the case (but making sure no
blood got on any components) I just couldn't get it to work. Fans spin up as
soon as I plug the PSU in, monitor indicator light flicks on, then nothing,
nada, dead. If I unplug the PSU for 30 secs and plug it back in it does the
same thing. Tried less RAM, different RAM, different PSU, different AGP
card, PCI graphics card, unplugging the HDD, CDROM and floppy, different CPU
(Celly 600 coppermine, the board supports them) removed the NIC, checked for
mobo shorts. No luck at all. I cleared CMOS, you name it, I tried it. I went
to bed annoyed and didn't sleep for ages. I'm gonna frisbee the board. I
wasn't using it as it's a dog, it's this board that put me off Via, it's had
all of 100 hours use. I stopped using it as, with the 1.3GHz tui, it only
benchmarked 10% better than a Celly coppermine 900MHz (with half the L2
cache) on a BX board. I just wish I had another board that could run the
tui, I haven't got one and I like tuis, I hate having the CPU on the shelf.

Looks like my 98SE machine will be a Celly 600 instead, the problem is, the
board I have for that has integrated graphics and no AGP slot. Oh well, the
games I have that won't run on XP (mainly Dungeon Keeper 2) aren't all that
demanding of graphics. The problem is, the integrated board I have only
allocates 2MB RAM for graphics and I can't find a setting in BIOS to change
it, and I've looked hard.

If it didn't mean re-formatting my main machine and starting from scratch
I'd just set it up to dual-boot. It took me weeks to get my XP installation
and apps just how I like them. I wish now I'd put 98SE on it first on a 5 -
10GB partition then installed XP on the rest of the drive.

I don't think this was a case of lack of attention due to the hour though,
I'm an insomniac and do my best work at night usually. A few hours after the
sun goes down my brain wakes up. Bloody annoying if I have to get up early.

 

[Bob Adkins]

Can anyone tell if if integrated options on a motherbaord, like video,
audio, firewire, ect., a better idea than using add-on cards if the
priority is to avoid configuration problems when building a system?

Of course this depends on your needs. Generally speaking, onboard LAN is OK,
onboard sound is fair, and onboard video is not so great.

Having said that, an integrated board is a cheap and a good way to build a
system on the cheap.

Always buy a board with an AGP slot, at least 5 additional PCI slots, and 3
RAM slots. You can always disable the onboard stuff and add better sound,
video, etc. later on if you feel you need it.

Bob

Remove "kins" from address to reply.

 

[Darren Harris]

I disagree. These companies will stay in business simply because they
can build systems of equal quality to home built cheaper because they
buy in such quantity that they get better prices.

Yeah, but we don't get those better prices. Their profit margin would
have to drop significantly in order for them to survive under the
conditions I mentioned.

Now homebuilt systems will always be around because it's fun to build
them AND even though they (Dell and others) COULD build what I want and
sell it to me for less than I could build it, they don't.

That's the point. They don't. If is things become as easy as I
mentioned, I don't that they will change to adapt.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

 

[Darren Harris]

Apparently you have had a lot of bad luck. For the most part you could
just throw the cards in without a care in the world and they'd work,
though in some cases there were issues like sound or video cards hogging
the bus or chipsets with flaky/slow PCI bus (Via 686 southbridge in
particular). Of course there are other possibilities, but for the most
part you are taking a gamble either way, moreso if you don't do the
researching of parts first, but most people do set up (both, integrated or
non-integrated) without significant problems.

Most people.

Huh? The software that comes with the retail packaged drives should do
so. You don't mention your RAID config though. Popular cloning programs
like DriveImage or Ghost are also widely used.

Yeah, I had a non-working copy of Drive Image installed on that
systema also. I finally took it off because all it was doing was
increasing the already too long booting-up time.

Not necessarily, some people don't want to do it themselves... two kinds
of people in the world: hands-on and, not.

Well, I believe that if putting a PC together was as easy as I said,
that proportion would swing greatly in the direction
"do-it-your-selfers".

There are a lot of other reasons to pick homebuild or OEM besides
configuration "issues". Price, part selection, features, expandability,
customization, out-of-warranty repair costs, no need for OEM-bundled
software (added cost of it), desire to overclock, the overall feeling that
OEMs build systems out of polished mid-grade parts for the most part, not
really GOOD parts except with very limited selection and at a price
premium.

Basically, it comes down to if what I'm looking for is available, and
so far it doesn't seem so.

Let me put it like this-

I have drawers full of hardware, and enough systems that I lost count long
ago. For the most part I can just throw any combination of parts together
and expect it to work, it's unusual for any problems to arise, and even
more unusual to have problems that aren't well-known issues with the
particular hardware (where the research comes into play beforehand).

If I had that may parts, perhaps I could say the same thing.

But you're not really asking a specific question regarding a problem,
you're expecting a problem with no specific reason to yet (jumping into
the great black hole of "what if" abyss).

Actually the reason was specific. Integrated options to fall back on
until I get relatively high-end cards, or if I have configuration
problems.

Why? It'll always be disproportionately priced, horrible value, and given
your apprehension of the whole build-a-system process, you'll probably
wait too long before upgrading again so you'd be paying premium price for
just a moment's worth of great performance instead of upgrading again on a
regular interval.

You're assuming too much. I never said I have an apprehension of the
whole "build-a-system process". If anything I have an apprehension of
big name manufactured systems. And the idea is to make this the last
32 bit system I build, before 64 bit takes over. So obviously I'll
want to have a minimum ceiling as for a processor when the time comes
to squeeze as much as I can out of the system.

But this doesn't really have much to do with whether you get a board with
a lot of integrated features. Any decent board will allow disabling any
integrated features if you don't want to use them. Just don't lock
yourself into a system with limited expansion capability (too few PCI
slots and/or no AGP slot) unless reducing the size of the system case is
the most important factor.

That is what this is all about. I was searching for an integrated mobo
that has all the features I need. But it may not exist.

It looks cheap. Biostar.

Did your last system have these low-end parts? If so, no wonder you had
problems. Testing and followup support, bios upgrades, etc, cost the
manufacturer $, and so the buyer as well.

My last system was purchased in 1998 is a SCSI system considered to be
relatively high-end at the time. And it's actually lasted longer than
a lot of big name PCs, considering how much running time it's had.

Don't buy junk. Don't buy a barebones assembled to be very cheap else
you're asking for more problems. That's more likely to give you grief
than whether things are integrated onto a board or not.
Buy a decent foundation for a system. Intel or Asus motherboard, 300+W
name-brand power supply, decent heatsink, memory, etc.

I've also been looking at the Asus P4P800* and P4C800*, but I'm told
that Intel mobos would be more reliable, and tend to have more
integrated features.

Prosavage video is poor performance but IS ok if you don't need to do
gaming or anything else demanding... would be fine for 4 year old games or
DVD/video, median sized image editing, office/'net/email/etc.

Well if I get into gaming next year, I'd have to spring for a high-end
video card.

Thanks.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.