Question about spam...

[Anonymous]

This is a question about spam. At first, I thought that it might be
off-topic---but---ACF is continuing to receive spam so I believe that
this posting is on-topic.

I get spam in my inbox. Everyone I know gets spam in their inboxes. We
get spam here in this newsgroup.

Nobody I know has ever bought anything that was advertised on spam.
Europe is passing laws to prosecute and punish spammers with fines and
jail-time. The US Congress is considering similar legislation. All of
my friends and associates hate spam and no one has ever said a nice
word about it. Entrepreneurs have gotten rich by creating and selling
anti-spam products. Everybody I know keeps a mental track of the
companies that use spam just so they remember NOT to buy anything from
that company ever again. Trade magazines, computer forums, and even Fox
News and CNN have all done stories on how much hatred people have
toward spam. Spam is the most reviled and loathed form of marketing in
the history of capitalism.

Spammers and companies that use spam must be totally insane.
Why do they continue to use a marketing tool that backfires each and
every time?

 

[badgolferman]

Why do they continue to use a marketing tool that backfires each and
every time?

Despite what you think it must be working for them. It's also a very
cheap form of advertisement.

 

[Morten Skarstad]

Anonymous skrev:

Nobody I know has ever bought anything that was advertised on spam.

You have not. I have not. Most semi-sane people on this planet have not.
But _somebody_ have. And sending spam is shit cheap, especially
considering it is usually done using stolen resources. So if it takes
10000 unsolicited mail messages to generate one single sale, you send
10000 unsolicited mail messages. And then go back to step 1.

I have seen numbers claiming that the number of spam mails outnumber
other mails by about 9:1. You do the rest of the math.

 

[Lou]

This is a question about spam. At first, I thought that it might be
off-topic---but---ACF is continuing to receive spam so I believe that
this posting is on-topic.

I get spam in my inbox. Everyone I know gets spam in their inboxes. We
get spam here in this newsgroup.

Nobody I know has ever bought anything that was advertised on spam.
Europe is passing laws to prosecute and punish spammers with fines and
jail-time. The US Congress is considering similar legislation. All of
my friends and associates hate spam and no one has ever said a nice
word about it. Entrepreneurs have gotten rich by creating and selling
anti-spam products. Everybody I know keeps a mental track of the
companies that use spam just so they remember NOT to buy anything from
that company ever again. Trade magazines, computer forums, and even Fox
News and CNN have all done stories on how much hatred people have
toward spam. Spam is the most reviled and loathed form of marketing in
the history of capitalism.

Spammers and companies that use spam must be totally insane.
Why do they continue to use a marketing tool that backfires each and
every time?

It will remain a problem until someone figures out how to charge for email.

Lou

 

[Al Klein]

Spammers and companies that use spam must be totally insane.
Why do they continue to use a marketing tool that backfires each and
every time?

Who cares? Go here <http://popfile.sourceforge.net/> and forget about
spam in your email inbox. (Freeware, no nags, open source and it
works.)

 

[Al Klein]

I have seen numbers claiming that the number of spam mails outnumber
other mails by about 9:1.

I think that's orders of magnitude too low.

 

[Al Klein]

It will remain a problem until someone figures out how to charge for email.

Or UCE becomes a felony.

 

[Lou]

Or UCE becomes a felony.

That will have no effect until someone figures how to catch them

 

[Gary R. Schmidt]

Al Klein wrote:




That will have no effect until someone figures how to catch them

That is relatively easy. It just requires some effort and a modicum of
technology.

The stumbling point is political - you need to be able to send a team
straight at a site in Korea, and have them send a team to somewhere near
Albuquerque and so on. _That's_ the real problem.

Cheers,
Gary B-)

 

[Al Klein]

Al Klein wrote:

That will have no effect until someone figures how to catch them

The audit trail on the internet is there, it's just a matter of giving
LE the right to follow it.

SOMEONE owns the site the UCE is telling you to go to, right? The
money from your credit card is going to SOME company.

 

[Al Klein]

The stumbling point is political - you need to be able to send a team
straight at a site in Korea, and have them send a team to somewhere near
Albuquerque and so on. _That's_ the real problem.

Just follow the money - and arrest the guy who spends it.

 

[Lou]

That is relatively easy. It just requires some effort and a modicum of
technology.

The stumbling point is political - you need to be able to send a team
straight at a site in Korea, and have them send a team to somewhere near
Albuquerque and so on. _That's_ the real problem.

Cheers,
Gary B-)

--
______________________________________________________________________________
Armful of chairs: Something some people would not know
whether you were up them with or not
- Barry Humphries

That is exactly what I meant. Catch = grab the person(s) reponsible.

Lou

 

[John Fitzsimons]

The audit trail on the internet is there, it's just a matter of giving
LE the right to follow it.

What's the point of an audit trail to a throw away ISP account ?

SOMEONE owns the site the UCE is telling you to go to, right? The
money from your credit card is going to SOME company.

Yes, a credit card company. Why should they get into trouble for doing
their job ? They and/or a bank cannot know in advance if someone is a
spammer.

Also, if someone who doesn't like you includes a link to "Al Klein
Enterprises" in their spam then you would be happy to see the police
turn up at your place ?

IP6 ? will help but there doesn't seem the interest/will to implement
it. That would ensure that an email could be traced to the originating
ISP.

Regards, John.

 

[Al Klein]

What's the point of an audit trail to a throw away ISP account ?

Someone pays for the web hosting. That audit trail. Someone gets the
end benefit of your credit card payment. That audit trail. Only The
Shadow is untraceable, and Mr. Keane is hot on *his* trail.

Yes, a credit card company. Why should they get into trouble for doing
their job ? They and/or a bank cannot know in advance if someone is a
spammer.

LE can require that the records of that transaction be produced. The
account is usable by someone other than the credit card company - the
spammer.

Also, if someone who doesn't like you includes a link to "Al Klein
Enterprises" in their spam then you would be happy to see the police
turn up at your place ?

Sure. Just show the link between your CC payment and any account I'm
even aware of. There are laws. If we make UCE a felony, even without
the current "a dictatorship would be better" mentality, there are many
current ways to trace a spammer.

 

[John Fitzsimons]

On Sun, 02 Apr 2006 09:57:04 +1000, John Fitzsimons

Someone pays for the web hosting.

Paid in cash using fake names.

That audit trail. Someone gets the
end benefit of your credit card payment. That audit trail. Only The
Shadow is untraceable, and Mr. Keane is hot on *his* trail.

What's the point of an audit trail to China or Korea ? I doubt either
would be interested in LE investigating their citizens.

LE can require that the records of that transaction be produced. The
account is usable by someone other than the credit card company - the
spammer.

Sure, but what use are records of someone who uses a fake name and/or
has closed his/her account ?

Sure. Just show the link between your CC payment and any account I'm
even aware of. There are laws. If we make UCE a felony, even without
the current "a dictatorship would be better" mentality, there are many
current ways to trace a spammer.

LE is hardly likely to be rushing around the world grabbing spammers.
Though most spammers are American American laws are pretty worthless
for the others. Added to that American spammers will just move
offshore if things get too hot at home.

Regards, John.

 

[Al Klein]

Paid in cash using fake names.

Possible, but not likely. The cash part, I mean. Hosting companies
like credit cards.

The banking part isn't so easy to fake - there are already too many
banking laws in place to run a totally anonymous bank account or
merchant account.

What's the point of an audit trail to China or Korea ? I doubt either
would be interested in LE investigating their citizens.

John, it's easy to say "it can't be done under any circumstances".
It's more difficult for a, say, US, citizen to open accounts in North
Korea for the purpose of using the internet to spamvertise. If you
change your return from 95% to 2%, it may not pay to stay in business,
even if you DO make it impossible for law enforcement to catch you.

Then there are your accounts with your suppliers - they have to get
paid. You're going to send them cash for each transaction? Open a
credit account in Outer Mongolia? Digging ditches in
mosquito-infested jungles for a living starts to become mighty
attractive.

Sure, but what use are records of someone who uses a fake name and/or
has closed his/her account ?

You mean someone who's violating IRS regs? WHICH prison did you say
he's running this scam from?

LE is hardly likely to be rushing around the world grabbing spammers.

They were hardly likely to be running around grabbing child
pornographers in the 1700s. They were hardly likely to tell people
they couldn't call you on the phone at 6PM to sell you insurance in
the 1950s. There are no structures in place to stop spam, because
spam is considered less a crime than speeding. Now. If it can be
shown that spam costs US big business, say, a few trillion dollars a
year, someone may get real interested in "protecting" big business
from these "annoying" little people. If it IS just an annoyance, run
a filter and we can forget about it.

Though most spammers are American American laws are pretty worthless
for the others. Added to that American spammers will just move
offshore if things get too hot at home.

Not if the law makes it illegal for an American to send UCE regardless
of whether it's being sent from the US or not. He'd have to move. Is
it worth it? Depends on how much it costs to advertise without
spamming. No one stays in business too long doing what he wants even
though it causes him to lose money.

If it becomes expensive enough to spam, spam becomes an unusable
method of advertising.

 

[kazee]

there are already too many
banking laws in place to run a totally anonymous bank account or
merchant account.

Tor/Privoxy http://www.1stdigibank.com/indexx.htm

 

[Al Klein]

Tor/Privoxy http://www.1stdigibank.com/indexx.htm

If you're in the US you're playing tax evasion. They may let you get
away with murder long enough that you die of old age, but the IRS will
get you if they have to ruin half the population of the country.

And with the current attitude of the US government, "if we say you
broke the law, you broke the law, even if you never heard of the
Western Hemisphere - and we'll kidnap you, bring you here, try you and
throw you in prison". They've done it already, more than once. Not
being a citizen and not being physically present is no protection.

All it takes is the will - which isn't there yet.

 

[tim]

John, it's easy to say "it can't be done under any circumstances".
It's more difficult for a, say, US, citizen to open accounts in North
Korea for the purpose of using the internet to spamvertise.

It's done everyday. Some of the biggest spammers have no problem getting
accounts in any number of countries.

If you
change your return from 95% to 2%, it may not pay to stay in business,
even if you DO make it impossible for law enforcement to catch you.

A 2% return on millions of spams daily will not keep a spammer from
spamming.

Then there are your accounts with your suppliers - they have to get
paid. You're going to send them cash for each transaction?

The spammer is getting a piece of the action from the supplier. All the
spammer is doing is sending out email for the supplier. He doesn't need to
worry about sending cash to a supplier.

You mean someone who's violating IRS regs? WHICH prison did you say
he's running this scam from?

When did IRS regs stop *anybody* from breaking the law?

There are no structures in place to stop spam, because
spam is considered less a crime than speeding.

What about your (assuming you are from the US) Can Spam law?
I'm not naive enough to believe that that particular piece of legislation
will actually stop spamming though

Now. If it can be shown that spam costs US big business, say, a few trillion dollars a
year, someone may get real interested in "protecting" big business
from these "annoying" little people. If it IS just an annoyance, run
a filter and we can forget about it.

Your lawmakers have already said it is more than an annoyance, and look
whats happened. Nothing. Can Spam is not, and will never work.

Not if the law makes it illegal for an American to send UCE regardless
of whether it's being sent from the US or not. He'd have to move. Is
it worth it? Depends on how much it costs to advertise without
spamming. No one stays in business too long doing what he wants even
though it causes him to lose money.

If it becomes expensive enough to spam, spam becomes an unusable
method of advertising.

Spamming can cost little or nothing to the spammer. Seed P2P networks with
a few trojans/rootkits, and all the spamming is done by ignorant joe user
who happily spams until his ISP calls and tells him they are shutting off
his access until it gets cleaned up. That's asuuming the ISP even cares.

 

[Al Klein]

It's done everyday. Some of the biggest spammers have no problem getting
accounts in any number of countries.

Accounts not known to the IRS? They're not paying taxes on the money
they're raking in? Hmmm. I wonder if the 10% rule apples. Would you
mind becoming fabulously wealthy for a phone call? 10% of all the
taxes all those people owe, and you collect it?

Or are you wrong?

A 2% return on millions of spams daily will not keep a spammer from
spamming.

It will if he needs a 20% return to make a profit. How long can he
throw 18% into a hole before he runs out of money?

The spammer is getting a piece of the action from the supplier. All the
spammer is doing is sending out email for the supplier. He doesn't need to
worry about sending cash to a supplier.

Not everyone drop-ships. And the supplier sends the spammer either a
check or an EFT for each sale/week/month - something. And deducts it
from his profits, so he doesn't pay taxes on it. And the IRS wants to
know where it goes - and that the guy who gets it pays taxes on it.

You want to hide profit from the IRS? I'm not that brave. Cheat a
little bit? People do. But pay no tax on any income derived from the
entire spam business? Amortize the income over the length of the
sentence and McDonald's pays better. A lot better. So does
panhandling or finding money in parking lots.

When did IRS regs stop *anybody* from breaking the law?

Exactly what charges do you think Al Capone served time for?
Bootlegging? Murder? The night Chicago died?

Failing to pay the IRS. You mess with them, you've had it. They make
a scorpion seem like a nice pet. And if they're wrong and wipe your
life out by accident? They don't even say "oops". YOU want to deal
with people like that? Why would a spammer?

What about your (assuming you are from the US) Can Spam law?
I'm not naive enough to believe that that particular piece of legislation
will actually stop spamming though

Any law that no one wants to enforce does only 2 things - wastes
everyone's time and makes the law itself a little more ludicrous. Oh,
we feel good - Congress "did something". Those who can be bought with
that candy do, anyway.

Now tell the IRS who's running an off-shore mail-order drop-ship and
not reporting income (and don't even bother to mention that it's one
of the worst spammers on the internet - they could care less, as long
as it doesn't tie up THEIR servers), and the company will be hanging
"went out of business" signs pretty quickly. But they'll be made with
old pencils on old newspaper, because the IRS will have stripped the
company down to the bare walls.

Your lawmakers have already said it is more than an annoyance

Talk is cheap. They already said that we have to stop terrorism. They
already said that we have to stop relying on foreign (as if we had
much domestic) oil. They already said that kids are too overweight.
They already said ... (the internet's not big enough for everything
they already said.)

Mommy keeps telling the kid, "if you don't stop, you're going inside".
Over and over. Day after day. Kid grows up spoiled rotten after 15
years of "she already said".

Mommy says it once. Kid disobeys. Mommy takes him inside. Three
times. Four times. Unless he's acephalic, he learns.

So far, Mommy hasn't said "enough with the spam". When you read the
story about the spammer going to prison for 10-15 for spamming, you'll
notice a sudden drop in spam. Will it ever happen? If I could
foresee the future I'd be playing the market earning 20% a day.

Spamming can cost little or nothing to the spammer.

If it's made expensive, it no longer costs little or nothing. Say the
IRS imposes a $10 on EACH PIECE of UCE. Send a million spam emails
and you're out of business until you pay Uncle. Could be years. Could
be never. Could be Joe Spammer won't even bother - the mails are
cheaper. Hand delivery is cheaper, and no one ever made a profit
selling that way.

I will say this - if all we do is say "it's impossible", it's
impossible. Is it possible if we try to do something? Who knows? But
if we don't, it's *NOT*. Guaranteed! They're not just going to get
tired of making money.