Problem scanning very dark Kodachrome

[Don]

Don't eat the yellow snow!

Sorry, couldn't resist...

A Zappa fan!

I was actually thinking of adding this but thought it too obscure!

Don.

 

[Ed Hamrick]

Is the image itself dark with a heavy blue cast, when you
hold it up to the light?

Media type: Slide film

Use Image

Color balance: White balance

Use Neutral

Settings same as above, except:
Media type: Image
After preview, right-click on the snow around the middle of the image.
(There's no feedback so I can't tell exactly where I clicked. I don't
know how to redraw the preview based on this right-click selection, so
I just right-clicked once and pressed the Scan button.)

Just wait a few seconds until it redraws.

What's needed is a raw scan file to diagnose the problem, not
processed images. This will clearly show what the dynamic
range in the actual scan is.

Now, I have always tried to be fair so to show (once again) that I'm
trying to be objective

"tried to be fair", "mutilation", "hide and seek user interface"
don't contribute to the description or solution of the problem.

Regards,
Ed Hamrick

 

[Ed Hamrick]

As can be read here repeatedly, others who do not have a vested
interest (and sporting other Nikon scanners as well) seem to think it
is correct.

No, I don't have any "vested interest" - it would be trivial for
me to add a separate analog gain for each color, it just isn't
the problem. I'm certainly interested in solving technical
problems, and a raw scan file would contribute to this.

I've also personally used most Nikon scanners.

Regards,
Ed Hamrick

 

[Ed Hamrick]

Settings same as above, except:
Media type: Image
After preview, right-click on the snow around the middle of the image.
(There's no feedback so I can't tell exactly where I clicked. I don't
know how to redraw the preview based on this right-click selection, so
I just right-clicked once and pressed the Scan button.)
===> http://members.aol.com/tempdon100164833/VS/VS-2.jpg

You do have "Color|Black point (%)" set to zero, don't you?
If not, you'll see this problem with an image that's almost
all white.

The best way to diagnose VueScan problems is to delete
vuescan.ini to set all the options to their default values.

Then run VueScan, press Preview, adjust the cropping,
click with the right mouse button on a neutral color,
then press the Scan button.

Regards,
Ed Hamrick

 

[ThomasH]

Yes, the fact that VueScan refuses to adjust individual Analog Gain is
just silly (I'm too polite to call it plain dumb - but I take your
word for it...). ;o)

Don.

But you are indeed solely mistaken, Don. The problem with Nikon
Color Management is well known and discussed here for several
years. It is not related to "analog gain," what is simply a
manual exposure correction. Even before introduction of ICC
profiling in Vuescan, Vuescan was capable of a very good color
reproduction, what was the reason for countless users to take
Vuescan.

You should browse google archives for some of the articles
written about these issues and of course do not believe in
the written word to quickly

Thomas

 

[Don]

But you are indeed solely mistaken, Don. The problem with Nikon
Color Management is well known and discussed here for several
years.

Hi Thomas,

This has nothing to do with Nikon Color Management as can be seen from
my own quote below. Please refer to the whole thread for more about
the subject matter.

In a nutshell, it's about bad and inflexible VueScan design decisions
with subsequent dogmatic and self-contradictory attempts to defend it
in the face of overwhelming evidence.

Don.

 

[Don]

No, I don't have any "vested interest" - it would be trivial for
me to add a separate analog gain for each color, it just isn't
the problem.

I'll let you, once again, argue with yourself:

...You might consider the possibility that VueScan
doesn't have separate controls for analog gain because doing so
would mess up color correction. The built-in ICC calibration
depends on a fixed ratio of analog gain between the red, green
and blue colors...

So, which is it? "Trivial" or would it "mess up color correction"?

Don.

 

[Don]

Is the image itself dark with a heavy blue cast, when you
hold it up to the light?

Of course, not. For months now, I've been saying that slides look just
fine when viewed with a naked eye.

Use Image

I did! As advised in *your own post* which I quoted last time. This
resulted in "VueScan mutilation #2".

Use Neutral

Makes no perceptual difference. Actually, I also tried "Landscape" on
the off chance but it made no difference. I ended up using "White
balance" because that's the default.

Just wait a few seconds until it redraws.

OK, I tried clicking on several places but it didn't perceptibly alter
the result either way (better or worse).

What's needed is a raw scan file to diagnose the problem, not
processed images. This will clearly show what the dynamic
range in the actual scan is.

If the dynamic range is what you're after, here are the histograms of
the full "NS-Base" image which was scanned with NikonScan using
neutral settings outlined in the original message:

http://members.aol.com/tempdon100164833/VS/NS-Base-L.jpg
http://members.aol.com/tempdon100164833/VS/NS-Base-R.jpg
http://members.aol.com/tempdon100164833/VS/NS-Base-G.jpg
http://members.aol.com/tempdon100164833/VS/NS-Base-B.jpg

"tried to be fair", "mutilation", "hide and seek user interface"
don't contribute to the description or solution of the problem.

I just call 'em as I see 'em...

Since when has "trying to fair" become a bad thing?

And I don't see you complaining about: "Here's an example of a VS scan
that does work just fine".

Don.

 

[Ed Hamrick]

If the dynamic range is what you're after, here are the histograms of
the full "NS-Base" image which was scanned with NikonScan using
neutral settings outlined in the original message:

What's needed is a raw scan file to diagnose the problem.

Regards,
Ed Hamrick

 

[Don]

You do have "Color|Black point (%)" set to zero, don't you?
Yes.

The best way to diagnose VueScan problems is to delete
vuescan.ini to set all the options to their default values.

I'm tempted to say "The best way is to delete VueScan" but I'll resist
the temptation, too easy... ;o)

But seriously, the problem has been diagnosed long ago: The absence of
separate Analog Gain control.

Then run VueScan, press Preview, adjust the cropping,
click with the right mouse button on a neutral color,
then press the Scan button.

I just downloaded the program, ran it and - after turning on "display
all options" - I made minimal changes as indicated in my previous
message. I tried to stick to defaults as much as possible.

Don.

 

[Thomas F. Unke]

with subsequent dogmatic and self-contradictory attempts to defend it
in the face of overwhelming evidence.

I haven't seen much evidence. Just a blueish scan. You were asked to
publish a raw scan file to be able to really analyze the problem.

 

[Don]

What's needed is a raw scan file to diagnose the problem.

All right... I'll jump through yet another hoop and call your bluff...

Specify in exact detail what you want (settings, etc).

My only proviso is that I don't want to waste more time and money
uploading megabytes of stuff to "solve" something we all already know
an answer to, so please keep the file size to under a megabyte.

Don.

 

[Bart van der Wolf]

SNIP

If the dynamic range is what you're after, here are the histograms of
the full "NS-Base" image which was scanned with NikonScan using
neutral settings outlined in the original message:

http://members.aol.com/tempdon100164833/VS/NS-Base-L.jpg
http://members.aol.com/tempdon100164833/VS/NS-Base-R.jpg
http://members.aol.com/tempdon100164833/VS/NS-Base-G.jpg
http://members.aol.com/tempdon100164833/VS/NS-Base-B.jpg

Seems to be on the underexposed side, but NS does strange things to raw data
so it's a guess based on the histograms alone. That's the reason Ed Hamrick
needs the true raw data. Easy to obtain by outputting Raw only after
checking the appropriate Output tab option in VueScan. You can reduce the
file size by increasing the file size reduction option for raw. It is always
a good basis to delete the VueScan.ini file before starting the diagnosis.

I understand your frustration, but don't let it get in the way of the
solution, Ed is really trying to help.

Bart

 

[Bart van der Wolf]

SNIP

So, which is it? "Trivial" or would it "mess up color correction"?

Both, it is trivial to implement, and it would mess up automatic color
correction.

Bart

 

[Roger Halstead]

Hi Thomas,

This has nothing to do with Nikon Color Management as can be seen from
my own quote below. Please refer to the whole thread for more about
the subject matter.

In a nutshell, it's about bad and inflexible VueScan design decisions
with subsequent dogmatic and self-contradictory attempts to defend it
in the face of overwhelming evidence.

That may be true, but then it's also a problem using Nikons "Nikon
Scan". Turning off the Nikon Color Management cured a lot of problems
for me. OTOH I'm "relatively" new to using Nikon Color Management
software.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

 

[Wilfred]

Seems to be on the underexposed side, but NS does strange things to raw data
so it's a guess based on the histograms alone. That's the reason Ed Hamrick
needs the true raw data. Easy to obtain by outputting Raw only after
checking the appropriate Output tab option in VueScan.

I guess his real problem is that he hasn't paid for VueScan yet, so he
cannot produce a raw scan file (or can he?).

 

[Philip Homburg]

SNIP

Both, it is trivial to implement, and it would mess up automatic color
correction.

This is what I don't like about most scanner software. I want to have
scanner software with a mode that just controls the scanner and doesn't
do any (additional) processing except when explicitly enabled.
When trying to figure out why something doesn't work, or when trying to
get the most out of a scan, all that automatic stuff just gets in the way.

If the hardware supports different analog gain settings for each channel,
then I want to be the judge of the effects.

 

[Don]

I haven't seen much evidence. Just a blueish scan.

Again, please check the whole thread:

VueScan mutilation #1:
===> http://members.aol.com/tempdon100164833/VS/VS-1.jpg

VueScan mutilation #2:
===> http://members.aol.com/tempdon100164833/VS/VS-2.jpg

VueScan's inability to remove this blue cast (in spite of boasts to
the contrary) is the evidence.

By adjusting NikonScan's individual Analog Gain (which VueScan is
incapable of) the cast can be removed without loss of dynamic range.

You were asked to
publish a raw scan file to be able to really analyze the problem.

I was asked many things. I supplied them all, and then some.

As to the latest hoop I'm asked to jump through, see parallel message.
I'm awaiting instructions...

Don.

 

[Ed Hamrick]

Specify in exact detail what you want (settings, etc).

1) Delete vuescan.ini (this is important)
2) Run VueScan
3) Set "Output|Output raw file"
4) Press Preview button
5) Adjust cropping
6) Press Scan button
7) Put scan0001.tif somewhere I can download it from

My only proviso is that I don't want to waste more time and money
uploading megabytes of stuff to "solve" something we all already know
an answer to, so please keep the file size to under a megabyte.

Set "Input|Scan resolution" to a value that makes the raw scan
file less than 1 MByte.

Regards,
Ed Hamrick

 

[Ed Hamrick]

I guess his real problem is that he hasn't paid for VueScan yet, so he
cannot produce a raw scan file (or can he?).

Ah - I hadn't thought of that. If he e-mails me, I'll give him
a free license - I would like to get to the bottom of this.

Regards,
Ed Hamrick