Previous Backup

F

Fats

I want to do a fresh image backup. I've deleted a previous image backup I
took. When I attempt the backup,
the system tells me that my last backup was done on mm/dd/yy. Does anyone
know how to reset this info
(ie I want the system to think this is my first image backup)?
 
J

Jill Zoeller [MSFT]

There isn't a way to reset this. A new image should be created though. Is
this not happening?
 
F

Fats

Not sure... I took an image backup about two months ago. A few weeks later I
was working on a problem (to no avail) that I was told I would have to do a
reinstall of the OS. I remembered the image I took (prior to the problem)
and decided to do an image restore instead. I also decided to take another
image backup first (in case the first restore didn't fix the problem, I
could restore again to my current configuration. I started the backup, it
ran an hour or so, then stopped saying "File not found". The msg didn't give
a file name, location,etc...just not found (love those msg types <G>).
Anyway I went ahead and ran the image restore (the one two months ago) and
it ran without a hitch. But the problem was not fixed (turned out to be an
intermittently bad gateway with my ISP). After the restore, it took a few
days to get current again. I copied the backup off the system, then deleted
the original. When I started the backup process, it informed me my last
backup on drive K (external HD) was from mm/dd/yy. As I had deleted it, I
assumed the process wasn't actually looking at the drive, but some registry
value (or such). With a image backup already having been run, the process
told me the size of the next backup would depend on whether or not files in
the first backup had changed. This made no sense to me as we are dealing
with an image backup..not files (incremental, differential, etc). figuring
there might be some sort of glitch, I wanted to get everything back to
"ground zero". I am going to go ahead and try the backup tonight and see
what happens.
 
J

Jill Zoeller [MSFT]

As you guessed, the "last backup" date is somewhere in the registry. One
thing to note: Complete PC Backups *do* have incrementals when stored on a
hard disk. Basically your most recent backup is stored as a .vhd image and
the incremental changes (previous backups) are stored as shadow copies,
reducing the amount of disk space used to store them.

Give the backup another try. It should work properly.

--
This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.

Want to learn more about Windows file and storage technologies? Visit our
team blog at http://blogs.technet.com/filecab/default.aspx.
 
F

Fats

Thanks...That's interesting. if the "Image files" can work with incremental,
but the "process" thinks there is a previous backup (by checking registry)
when there's not, how can it determine whether or not a file has changed?
What happens on a restore? Please help me understand:

Given. 1 complete image backup
4 additional complete image backups (which if I understand you
correctly are actually "image incremental backups")

Under "normal (my normal <G>)" circumstances, to do a full restore I need
the first backup and all four incremental. For a differential
full restore I need the first backup and the last differential backup.

Now, I want to reclaim some space on the external drive containing the
backup/s.

Scenario 1: I delete all backups. I run a new image backup.

Is process smart enough to know this is the first
(non-incremental) backup in the sequence? (even though he thinks other
backups are present via
the registry, which would normally signal this backup is
to be an incremental)

Scenario 2: I delete first backup (only reaming backups are incremental)

How can a full restore (image) occur? (remaining images
only contain files that have changed).

My understanding of backups (excluding fuzzy logic and those types of
"things" <G> ) is
the first full backup backs up everything. If incremental or differential is
involved, it sets a bit associated with each file to zero. Any time a file
is modified, that bit is set to a one. The next backup job only backs up
files with the bit set. If an incremental backup, the bit is reset to off (a
zero) after being backed up. For a differential backup, the bit is not
reset. Thus (daily backups) the incremental consists of a full backup and a
daily backup of the days changes, while the differential contains a full
backup plus a
daily backup of all changes made since the full. To restore a system you
need the full backup and all of the incremental backups or the full backup
and the last differential.

For me (home use), I would much rather take a full system image every few
months or so because I am interested in recovering from a crashed drive.
Being able to replace a drive, boot from the Vista system disk, and less
that two hours later have a fully restored system is very important to me. I
use SyncToy to keep my files backed up. So I would really like the option of
using incremental....or not. Right now it seems the only way to do this is
by making sure there is no previous backup present (and as my questions will
attest, I'm not sure about that)

Thanks for your time
 
F

Fats

Give the backup another try. It should work properly.Failed to create the shared protection point on the source volumes.
(0x8078006B)

Additional Info

The shadow copy provider had an unexpected error while trying to process the
specified operation.
(0x8004230F)
 
F

Fats

After the error, I did a restart of the OS and tried again. This time it
worked without a hitch. Prior to starting the backup it estimated
the space as 60GB and said that would be smaller if a previous backup
existed. Verbiage on the menu indicated the process thought there
were two backups on the drive (note..not physically there...deleted same).
The total size of the backup was 23GB. So the 24 dollar question..
do I have a complete image backup or do I have some kind of incremental
built off data I don't know about? If I do have a full backup, why the size
discrepancy?
I have a 250GB HD and utilize about 60GB.
 
J

Jill Zoeller [MSFT]

Forget everything you know about incremental backups--they don't apply here.
:) Shadow copies are made at the block level, not file level. Somewhere
I've got a really great email that explains how this works. I need to find
it and I'll post it here.

--
This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.

Want to learn more about Windows file and storage technologies? Visit our
team blog at http://blogs.technet.com/filecab/default.aspx.
 
J

Jill Zoeller [MSFT]

OK, I found the email from one of our developers. Since color is key, I switched to HTML. This is supposed to illustrate how shadow copies work--I hope it makes sense. As you can see, this is not in any way related to traditional incremental/differential/full backups. By using this technology known as VSS (volume shadow copy service), Complete PC Backup can minimize the size of the incremental backups. Since there is a finite amount of space on the disk, you can't keep infinite # of Complete PC incrementals. Eventually the oldest will be purged to make room for newer ones.

Also, I don't think that Complete PC Backup is keying off the registry to decide what to do. I will double-check this though.




(3) The shadow copy storage area does not contain whole copies, and the snapshots don't work at file level. The snapshots don't even have way to know about files. They are below the file system. The only case when something is copied to the shadow copy storage area (sometimes called diff area) is when it was used (not free space) at the time the snapshot was created, now is changed, and it was not copied already to the storage area for this or another snapshot. This is done at 16k units granularity, so if you change something small in your .pst, you will end up with 16k-32k diff generated.



Let me give an example.

Let's say the live volume is like this:

Live volume: |a|a|b|b| | |



Then we create snapshot

Live volume: |a|a|b|b| | |

Snapshot1 : |_|_|_|_| []**

Using the brackets next to ** I am trying to represent that the snapshot does not contain the free space, and the reads go directly to the data on the original volume (this is represented with underscores). The diff area is empty.



Now let's change the 1st a to be a (a lot of programs overwrite with the same data).

a

|

Live volume: |a|a|b|b| | |

Snapshot1 : |_|_|_|_| []

As a result nothing changes.



Now let's change the 2nd a to c.

c

|

Live volume: |a|c|b|b| | |

Snapshot1 : |_|a|_|_| [a]

The live volume will contain the c, the snapshot will a, the diff are will contain a.



Now let's write d in the 1st free space

d

|

Live volume: |a|c|b|b|d| |

Snapshot1 : |_|a|_|_| [a]

Nothing changes on the snapshot and nothing is added to the diff area. This is VERY important moment. Free space is not copied. Downloading new mp3 in free space has no additional cost.



Now let's create one more snapshot

Live volume: |a|c|b|b|d| |

Snapshot1 : |_|a|_|_| [a]

Snapshot2 : |_|_|_|_|_| []

Again everything read from the 2nd snapshot goes to the live volume. The newly added data d is protected in the 2nd snapshot, but not in the 1st.



Now let's change the 1st b to e

e

|

Live volume: |a|c|e|b|d| |

Snapshot1 : |_|a|b|_| [a]

Snapshot2 : |_|_|b|_|_|

It appears in both snapshots as expected as b, but it is copied ONLY once in the most recent diff area.



Now let's change the e to f

f

|

Live volume: |a|c|f|b|d| |

Snapshot1 : |_|a|b|_| [a]

Snapshot2 : |_|_|b|_|_|

Nothing changes in the snapshots nor anything is added to the diff area, because the block is already there.



So if you count, we did 5 writes to the volume, but we copied only 2 blocks and we still have 2 snapshots of the volume.
 
F

Fats

Wow...I have really got some reading to do. I obviously know next to nothing
about shadow copies and really need to get up to speed. Thank you
for pointing me in the right direction. I'm retired from IBM and have lived
in Vegas for the past few years "playing". I forgot how quickly things
change in this field.
Vista was/is a definite wakeup call <G>
 
G

gls858

Fats said:
Wow...I have really got some reading to do. I obviously know next to
nothing about shadow copies and really need to get up to speed. Thank you
for pointing me in the right direction. I'm retired from IBM and have
lived in Vegas for the past few years "playing". I forgot how quickly
things change in this field.
Vista was/is a definite wakeup call <G>

Or you could just buy a copy of some good imaging software like Acronis
True Image and forget about MS's backup solution.

gls858
 
F

Fats

I had True Image, but had some bad experiences with it. While hardly unique,
customer service was in India or Borneo <G> (extremely hard to understand
their English). TI doesn't tell you before buying the download version that
the installation disk also serves as a rescue disk. So when you download the
product you need to "build" a rescue disk. The process to do that was full
of bugs, like kept id'ing the disk drive as busy when it wasn't, couldn't be
built with an OEM disk,etc). So like a lot of vendors who say their product
is compatible with Vista, turns out it "ain't". (kind of like Clinton when
he insisted he didn't have sex with Monica, only oral copulation...word
games). Anyway, I was finally able to take a full backup. I deleted a folder
and did a restore of same as a first test. It seemed to be taking way to
long, so I cancelled it. It didn't take long to discover that almost every
directory on the system contained duplicate files with a slightly different
name (turns out TI wasn't very adept at identifying symbolic links). On a
positive note it forced me to learn about many
things I didn't even know existed...Integrity levels, Trusted Installer,
wussy Admin, etc. It took about a week to clear everything up. On the other
hand, the Vista backup/restore worked as advertised. Although I had some
reservations (due to my lack of knowledge about the underlying process) the
full image restore worked flawlessly. I see no reason to buy a 3rd party
program to do backup. I just need to learn more about it.
 

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