power supply question (newbie)

M

Mike T.

Gabriel said:
Hello, I built a system using this barebone
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16856110044
and would like to upgrade the power supply so I can use a better video
card. Must I get a MicroATX PSU or would a standard ATX PSU work?

TIA

I've never heard of a microatx PSU. There are SFF cases (small form factor)
that come with proprietary power supplies. But the photos of your rig seem
to look like a standard ATX setup. Try the following. -Dave

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16817104954
 
P

Paul

Mike T. said:
I've never heard of a microatx PSU. There are SFF cases (small form factor)
that come with proprietary power supplies. But the photos of your rig seem
to look like a standard ATX setup. Try the following. -Dave

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16817104954

That looks like a good choice, because when that supply is turned
over, the internal cooling fan will point downward. That observation
is based on the position of the (asymmetric) screw holes on the back
of the PSU, and comparing the position of the screw holes as shown
in the Asus user manual.

http://images10.newegg.com/NeweggImage/productimage/17-104-954-01.JPG

The dimensions on an ATX power supply are listed here. You can compare
the dimensions to what you have. The formfactors site has info on
a number of different case types.

http://www.formfactors.org/developer/specs/ATX12V_PSDG_2_2_public_br2.pdf

The supply may be "top" or "bottom" vented, so you want to be
a little bit careful about what you are getting. The pictures
on Newegg help, but some supplies have more pictures than
others.

150 mm (5.91") wide (your case is 6.6" wide on outside, a tight fit)
86 mm (3.39") high
146 mm (5.75") deep (variable - this dimension can be more or less,
with higher or lower power output supplies)

Pull the supply and measure it with a ruler. Newegg doesn't have
dimensions listed for most of their supplies, and looking at pictures
doesn't help in that regard.

HTH,
Paul
 
D

Dorothy Bradbury

Dimensions will indicate if it is a M-ATX or ATX PSU...
o M-ATX tend to have oddly shaped fan outlets/inlets
o ATX are the more conventional big-box formats

Choose a PSU like Antec or similar rather than budget unit.

Only other note is any optical drive near the PSU - some are
quite deep and can make fitting a PSU very difficult. Measure.
 
D

Dorothy Bradbury

One note many people may forget...
o Your high end decent PSU just failed - out of the blue
---- remember an ATX PSU is on standby, not physically off
---- so primary side surges, lightening etc, can still zap the thing
o A failing bad PSU (as well as the above) can take out a PC
---- ATX spec compliance is advisory not legally binding
---- several PSUs have varying approval in various countries
-------- HV hi-pot insulation being a common rejection
---- consider extra cost of a PSU vs components downstream

Rarely a PSU will take out downstream components.
However that it can should be a reminder about backup importance.

There are only a few PSU makers, a lot of specifiers & relabellers.
o Surge & filter components are often cut
---- hence risk of on-standby PSU damage from surges etc
---- even with those components there is still a small risk
o Actual ATX compliance components are often cut
---- crowbar protection re basic short-circuit protection/recovery
---- two rails off one regulator resulting in shorter life
---- undersized heatsinks & "Wattage Label Uprating"
---- oversize heatsinks, underspec rest & same "Wattage Label Uprating"

So sticking with the key brands is not a bad idea, often they buy from
the same PSU makers - but at least specify to ATX compliance etc.

Antec, Sparkle & similar are ok PSUs - Sparkle tend to be slightly
older designs in some cases, but have been OEM to Compaq etc.

An UPS is very useful in areas prone to brownouts etc.

A PSU is not always the cause, but odd behaviour can be caused by them.

In the past you could get away with largely crap SMPS designs, but the
introduction of ATX "standby" exposed PSUs to higher power-on-hours.
Importantly the higher power-on-hours involved Vstandby of 5V 2Amps,
yet the fan is not running. Some poor designs run quite hot in standby,
that heat can heatsoak low quality electrolytic capacitors which have a
high ESR (Effective Series Resistance = Heating). Result is lower life.

Some designs fit inferior secondary caps thinking the heating is masked,
but that can result in instability at the PC side later on in the PSUs life.

Prescott boards & higher RAM capacity boards impose high demands...
o Prescott imposes high load on the m/b VRM in itself
o RAM capacity was once limited by RAM VRM capability re cooling

PC baseline wattage has risen - Prescott SOI dissipates 50W at idle.
Even a 60W lightbulb manages to create light whilst also at "idle" :)

Standby convective cooling can be quite poor in some designs, and
the PSU in standby is still exposed to mains (primary) side risk.

Graphics cards can impose very high current demands - idle wattage
on GPUs can be pretty abysmal, and peak wattages can be quite severe.

There are a lot of parts in a PC SMPS, and thus a basic minimum price.
 
L

larry moe 'n curly

Dorothy said:
There are only a few PSU makers, a lot of specifiers & relabellers.
o Surge & filter components are often cut
---- hence risk of on-standby PSU damage from surges etc
---- even with those components there is still a small risk

And more interference on broadcast TV and AM radio. The latter was
drowned out completely by my cheapo MaxPower/Soyo PSU sitting 20 feet
away and plugged into another AC circuit, but my Delta PSU that was
plugged into the same outlet as the radio and sitting three feet from
it didn't affect the sound noticeably..

Even some former high-quality manufacturers now produce cheapos,
HEC/Heroichi being an example with their Orion series -- no EMI filter
at all but FCC "approved".
o Actual ATX compliance components are often cut
---- crowbar protection re basic short-circuit protection/recovery

I don't think that Antec, Fortron, or even PC Power & Cooling include
crowbars, just a turn-off mechanism.
---- undersized heatsinks & "Wattage Label Uprating"

Topower Aspire and any $20 PSU rated for 500W?
---- oversize heatsinks, underspec rest & same "Wattage Label Uprating"

Topower OCZ and Tagen? Some fanless PSUs that weren't redesigned for
higher efficiency?
 
D

Dorothy Bradbury

---- undersized heatsinks & "Wattage Label Uprating"
Topower Aspire and any $20 PSU rated for 500W?

Topower are also sold under the Tagan label.
Topower OCZ and Tagen? Some fanless PSUs that weren't
redesigned for higher efficiency?

The list is long and it changes - some false label PSUs also.

To make a fanless PSU requires a lot of redesign
o Fanless at 100W, 200W, 250W?
---- even the most efficient starts dumping some heat
---- most efficient requires quality high temp parts eg, low-ESR caps
o Essentially they assume a typical PC
---- Cel-2.2, HD, DVD, onboard graphics idles 63W, peaks 115W
---- P4-Prescott, 2x HD, DVD, added graphics idles 130W, peaks 200W

A secondary problem is fanless does not mean airflowless
o If cooling is by convection, where does it get the airflow?
---- does the PSU act as another intake hole for exhaust fans?
-------- so exposing the PSU to cooler room-ambient
-------- but putting heated PSU air into the case-ambient
---- does the PSU act as an exhaust hole where intake fans dominate?
-------- so exposing the PSU to heated case-ambient
-------- particularly heated air off the CPU cooler exhaust
-------- original ATX spec was for the PSU to extract hot CPU air
---- without the PSU exhaust fan, the case fans must compensate
-------- impingement heatsinks recirculate 40-70% heated air as it is
o So the chassis as well as PSU design has a part to play
---- for low power PCs the error margin is quite large
---- for higher power PCs some fanless PSUs are a revenue stream


It can get such a mess that affiliate advertisers review the same
PSU under different labels with quite different results, amusingly.

We've had a lot of "label wattage inflation" as a competition...
o 1U 300W PSU -- will run a high end PC
---- Dual MP + GB + onboard RAID + SCSI HDs + continuous IOPS
o 2U 350W PSU -- will run very high end dbase servers
---- Dual Xeon + 4-8GB + RAID + 4 SCSI HD + continuous IOPS
o 3U+ 460W PSU -- will do a lot more

So for most home users a true 350W PSU is fine - better to have a
real 350W than a fake 500W cheapy which struggles at half that load.

At the low end the basic lower-volume & higher-price components should
raise a few flags at the cheaper prices claiming power-station watts
fanfree.
Price in itself is not necessarily a guide in the snowstorm of relabelling.

One reason I have stuck to 1U - high efficiency is common & small size.
Better to have several small PCs than one high-end one re response time
being a KVM click away vs sharing slow head seeks across applications.

It's the IT industry, best viewed with letters "sh" at the front very often
:)
 

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