P4P800-E Deluxe and WinXP SP2?

[Nom]

Paranoia? You want a copy of the logs detailing an EMail exchange with
M$ where they admit they installed a routine on my computer that calls
out..., that that portion of the software didn't ask my permission to
install, that there's no way to disable it or prevent the installation
, and that they don't have a fix for the problem?

Er, so ? I don't understand the issue ? Why is that a problem ? This is
first-party Microsoft software we're talking about here - hardly an unknown
source !

Oh, and they never said *why* it was calling out.

Did you ask them ? Their Intellipoint and Intellitype software, checks
online for updates automatically - that's all it was doing ! I use the same
kit with my Internet Keyboard Pro - automatic updates are a good thing

 

[Haggard the Horrendous]

Er, so ? I don't understand the issue ? Why is that a problem ? This is
first-party Microsoft software we're talking about here - hardly an unknown
source !
Exactly.


Did you ask them ? Their Intellipoint and Intellitype software, checks
online for updates automatically - that's all it was doing ! I use the same
kit with my Internet Keyboard Pro -

Of course. They wouldn't/couldn't/didn't say. Please understand.. This
is *my* computer, not M$'s. They have *no* right to install extra
software on my system. I don't care how benign it is. It's *my*
computer. It's *my* decision as to whether I want to check for/install
updates, not theirs.

The software, during the install, did *not* ask my permission to
check for updates. There was no option to disable this 'feature'.
There was no asking after installation if I wanted it to go online
when it did so.

automatic updates are a good thing

No, they're not.

 

[Nom]

Exactly.

Er ?

Of course. They wouldn't/couldn't/didn't say. Please understand.. This
is *my* computer, not M$'s. They have *no* right to install extra
software on my system. I don't care how benign it is. It's *my*
computer. It's *my* decision as to whether I want to check for/install
updates, not theirs.

I don't understand. It's merely a computer - why are you so protective ?
Things like auto-updates make things easier for the user - and that includes
you !

If a condition of using a Microsoft Keyboard, is that their driver attempts
to update itself online, then that's just fine with me. The more things that
autoupdate, the better !

I say again, this is Microsoft we're talking about here - not some random
third-party company. What with all the anti-trust motions etc. I can't
imagine anyone safer to "phone home" !

The software, during the install, did *not* ask my permission to
check for updates. There was no option to disable this 'feature'.
There was no asking after installation if I wanted it to go online
when it did so.


No, they're not.

Of course they are ! Having to continually update every bit of your software
manually, is a huge waste of time !

 

[Haggard the Horrendous]

Note: I changed the subject line to add OT for those that want to
filter it out.

Er ?

Do you understand what M$'s goal in the future is for the consumer? To
put it bluntly, I wouldn't trust Gates and his band of cronies to
update the roll of toilet paper in my bathroom without checking it
first for contaminents.

I don't understand. It's merely a computer - why are you so protective ?

Oh geeze, Louise. Where do I start, Questions:

Are you running an antivirus program and is the signature file up to
date?

Are you running at least Ad-Aware and Spybot on a regular basis and
updating them as well? Do you understand the necessity for running
these?

You have, of course, gone to:

http://grc.com/intro.htm

and done a full port scan on your computer.

You claim that all the keyboard SW was doing was checking for updates.
Did you run a packet filter to deduce this?

Things like auto-updates make things easier for the user - and that includes
you !

They most certainly don't. Do you actually *read* the EULA's that
accompany M$ software? Or any software? Or do you accept it all
blindly?

If a condition of using a Microsoft Keyboard, is that their driver attempts
to update itself online, then that's just fine with me. The more things that
autoupdate, the better !

I say again, this is Microsoft we're talking about here - not some random
third-party company. What with all the anti-trust motions etc. I can't
imagine anyone safer to "phone home" !

Heh. You obviously haven't been following M$'s more than shady past.
And present. If I actually take the time to send you links will you
actually *read* the information presented? Or is this a waste of *my*
time?

Of course they are ! Having to continually update every bit of your software
manually, is a huge waste of time !

Heh. *If* you use M$ software it is. It still boggles my mind that
people will pay for garbage like XP and put up with all the updates
for the security breaches.

You have, of course, closed all the security breaches left open by
SP2?

 

[Nom]

Note: I changed the subject line to add OT for those that want to
filter it out.


Do you understand what M$'s goal in the future is for the consumer?

Their goal is to make as much money as they can, same as any other company !

To put it bluntly, I wouldn't trust Gates and his band of cronies to
update the roll of toilet paper in my bathroom without checking it
first for contaminents.

I can't think of any company I'd trust MORE with regards to this sort of
thing. What with all the recent lawsuits etc. Microsoft are now one of the
most compliant companies around !

Oh geeze, Louise. Where do I start, Questions:

Are you running an antivirus program and is the signature file up to
date?

Yes, yes.

Are you running at least Ad-Aware and Spybot on a regular basis and
updating them as well? Do you understand the necessity for running
these?

Yes, yes and yes.

You have, of course, gone to:

http://grc.com/intro.htm

and done a full port scan on your computer.

Nope - no need. I keep my Windows Hotfixes all uptodate at all times - my PC
may well be visible on the net, but good-luck taking advantage of it

You claim that all the keyboard SW was doing was checking for updates.
Did you run a packet filter to deduce this?

Nope - I just watched what it did ! What are you suggesting it's doing ?

They most certainly don't.

Er ? That's a contradiction in terms.

Do you actually *read* the EULA's that
accompany M$ software? Or any software? Or do you accept it all
blindly?

Nope, nope, yep. I don't give two hoots what the EULA says. If I want to use
the software, then I will. It's that simple.

Heh. You obviously haven't been following M$'s more than shady past.
And present. If I actually take the time to send you links will you
actually *read* the information presented? Or is this a waste of *my*
time?

It's a waste of your time. It's precisely BECAUSE of their shady past, which
now makes them so "trustworthy" (not the right word to use, but I've just
got to work, not had coffee yet, and I can't be bothered to rephrase) - they
wouldn't DARE do anything dodgy these days !

Heh. *If* you use M$ software it is. It still boggles my mind that
people will pay for garbage like XP and put up with all the updates
for the security breaches.

I have no complaints.
As long as you set Automatic Updates to continually download and install the
updates provided, then you remain reasonably secure.

For what it's worth, I'm an MCSE and I administer about 600 PCs along with
the rest of my team. As an institution, we have no complaints at all about
Microsoft's software.

You have, of course, closed all the security breaches left open by
SP2?

You mean the two or three fixes released since SP2 arrived ? Yep.

 

[end user]

You are naive

Locust

 

[Haggard the Horrendous]

I have no complaints.
As long as you set Automatic Updates to continually download and install the
updates provided, then you remain reasonably secure.

Yeah. Continually. And this is acceptable to you?

For what it's worth, I'm an MCSE and I administer about 600 PCs along with
the rest of my team. As an institution, we have no complaints at all about
Microsoft's software.

No, you're not. I *know* techs. I work for an organization which,
spread across Canada, maintains thousands of computers. They refuse to
install XP on *any* of their systems because it's a bug-ridden leaky
POS. They refuse to install it on their home systems. M$ can be
trusted about as far as one is capable of spitting with their mouth
closed.

They've learned? They wouldn't dare?

http://www.theregister.com/2004/10/14/playsforsure_site_keels/

Last paragraph, same shit. And I can a bunch more links to more shit.
Including the truth behind the anti-trust settlement.

You mean the two or three fixes released since SP2 arrived ? Yep.

As I said, you're not. If you were you'd be aware of: Sure glad you're
not maintaining the systems at work.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/09/02/winxpsp2_security_review/
http://www.theregister.com/2004/09/17/xphome_sp2/

And you can't even be bothered to run a port scan? Betcha you're
running everything (home and work) with Administrator rights.

And while I'm at it:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/08/20/sp2_scripting_vuln/
http://www.theregister.com/2004/09/15/windows_jpeg_bug/
http://www.theregister.com/2004/10/08/word_exploit/
http://www.theregister.com/2004/10/14/ie_bug_revived/

Using W98SE. Mozilla. OpenOffice. Metapad. ZA PRO feeding a router
(hardware firewall). Other than the OS *NO* M$ software. And soon to
be switching to Linux (Suse).

Administrator? More likely an M$ shill.

 

[Nom]

Yeah. Continually. And this is acceptable to you?

Yes, simply because it requires no user intervention.

We run Microsoft's Software Update Services here, and it continually pushes
out the new security fixes across the domain, as they arrive. Once setup, it
just sits there doing it's thing.

No, you're not.

Er, I think you'll find that I am

I *know* techs. I work for an organization which,
spread across Canada, maintains thousands of computers. They refuse to
install XP on *any* of their systems because it's a bug-ridden leaky
POS. They refuse to install it on their home systems.

Why ?

Our public-facing machines are almost exclusively Windows 2000 at the
moment, but we've got plenty of XP machines spread around the place. We plan
to switch the public machines over to XP in January - "time" is the only
reason we didn't make the switch years ago.
Our laptops are exclusively XP - 2K's boot/shutdown times are a joke for a
portable machine.

XP is neither bug-ridden nor leaky - it's by FAR the best of Microsoft's
desktop operating systems !
No tech worth his salt would run anything less than Windows XP on their home
machine - Windows 2000 is waaaaaaaaay outdated these days !

M$ can be
trusted about as far as one is capable of spitting with their mouth
closed.

I trust them just fine, and they've never caused me any problems whatsoever.
Until they do, then my stance won't change !

They've learned? They wouldn't dare?

http://www.theregister.com/2004/10/14/playsforsure_site_keels/

Last paragraph, same shit. And I can a bunch more links to more shit.
Including the truth behind the anti-trust settlement.

And there are just as many links about all the steps they've taken to comply
with all the suits, and all the initiatives they've implemented to stop
monopolistic practices in the future !

If you're so Anti-MS, then why on earth are you using their stuff ?!?! There
are any number of desktop operating systems around - go use something else !

As I said, you're not. If you were you'd be aware of: Sure glad you're
not maintaining the systems at work.

Except that I am, along with the five other people in my team. We manage
just fine - never had an incident in the four years I've worked for this
particular company.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/09/02/winxpsp2_security_review/

I'm not even gonna BEGIN to reply to that ! Have you actually read the
article ? That guy is a paranoid loonatic ! His general gist is to simply
disable everything you don't use - but if there's no security hole in said
service (because you're uptodate with the HotFixes), then what's the point ?
As I said before, you merely need to keep the hotfixes uptodate, and run a
decent Firewall. That's all we do, and we've never had a problem. It's just
overkill to go any further, and you're needlesly removing functionality.

The best illustration of his stupidity is the following statement :

"Furthermore, Error Reporting (which phones home to Microsoft)" ... "all
features that should not be enabled unless they're needed" !!!!!!!!

Error Reporting makes everyone's computing experience better, once the fault
that caused the error has been fixed. Microsoft DO act on these reports, and
they've fixed plenty of issues since the system went live. It's an EXCELLENT
feature !

And you can't even be bothered to run a port scan?

On the desktop machines, correct. Not much point on our servers - the only
ports open on the Firewall for the servers, are the ports they actually use
for said server duty.

Betcha you're
running everything (home and work) with Administrator rights.

*I* am yes, as are the other members of the I.T. Team. Our public users are
all allocated User-level accounts.

There's no reason for this to change - anyone with reasonable nouse can use
an Admin account on a daily basis with no problems at all. If you manage to
run some malware that can take advantage of this, then it's your own fault.
I've got 100% faith in my protection against such things - otherwise I
wouldn't be logged in with an Admin account.

And while I'm at it:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/08/20/sp2_scripting_vuln/
http://www.theregister.com/2004/09/15/windows_jpeg_bug/
http://www.theregister.com/2004/10/08/word_exploit/
http://www.theregister.com/2004/10/14/ie_bug_revived/

So ?

If the vulnerability can be exploited, then a HotFix will arrive. It's a
complete none-issue. There are hundreds of vulnerabilities across all
versions of Windows !

Using W98SE.

ROFL !!!!!!!!!!!

Perhaps you should start by getting an Operating System that actually WORKS,
before attempting to preach to others ?

Mozilla. OpenOffice. Metapad. ZA PRO feeding a router
(hardware firewall). Other than the OS *NO* M$ software.

Win XP SP2. IE 6. Outlook 2003. Outlook Express for newsgroups.
No Firewall at all at home, Firewall at work has plenty of ports open.
*MASSES* of Microsoft Software.

And soon to
be switching to Linux (Suse).

Oh dear. Good luck with that - I've tried two or three flavours of Linux
recently, and all were a *nasty* experience.

Administrator? More likely an M$ shill.

Yep, and very happy with it. If things change, I'll go somewhere else. But
the current situation suits me just fine.

 

[Nom]

You are naive

Not at all - our current licensing agreement with Microsoft cost us in the
region of a million pounds (about US$1,900,000) - if we had big problems
with their stuff, then we wouldn't have paid them all that money, and we
wouldn't be using it !

Granted, there are LOTS of issues with Windows and Microsoft. But they can
all be trivially overcome - otherwise the huge Fortune 500 companies of the
world, wouldn't be staking their business on them !

 

[Haggard the Horrendous]

Yes, simply because it requires no user intervention.

Well, what it all seems to boil down is that I don't trust M$ and
demand I be given the choice to decide what goes on my computer. You
trust them and don't care.

For me W98 does everything I want and is stable. I don't like either
W2K or XP (yes, I've used them). btw. If *that* amused you I mainly
use DOS on my laptop. If it wasn't for a couple of needed W32 programs
I could get by just fine just using WFWG on it.

As for the author of those articles being paranoid, yes. He looks at
it from a security viewpoint. As do I. ALL access points are secured
and controlled. btw, FWIW, I'm a security supervisor at one of the
branches of the company I work for.

Oh dear. Good luck with that - I've tried two or three flavours of Linux
recently, and all were a *nasty* experience.

Which ones? I've downloaded and run the live versions of both Mandrake
and Suse. Both ran and detected pretty well all (as far as I could
tell) of my hardware. Within 5 minutes of booting I was online. Keep
in mind that neither of the distros got installed. They both ran off
the CD.

Yep, and very happy with it. If things change, I'll go somewhere else. But
the current situation suits me just fine.

Only time will tell. I wish you luck.

 

[Nom]

Well, what it all seems to boil down is that I don't trust M$ and
demand I be given the choice to decide what goes on my computer. You
trust them and don't care.

Yeah, I think that's about the size of it.

As for the author of those articles being paranoid, yes. He looks at
it from a security viewpoint. As do I. ALL access points are secured
and controlled. btw, FWIW, I'm a security supervisor at one of the
branches of the company I work for.

Ah, that explains your standpoint then.

I work at a satellite site, but our main site does have a specific computer
security guy, and he takes much the same view as you. I suppose if he didn't
(and you didn't), then you wouldn't be the right man for the job ?

Which ones?

Mandrake and Redhat within the last year, but various others before that.
All had the odd problem with my hardware (currently an nForce 2 based setup,
and stacks of USB stuff) - nothing too drastic, but it took lots and lots of
digging before I managed to find some decent instructions to install drivers
for things - and even with them, it was none-trivial.
The other bugbear I had, was installing software - again, couldn't be done
without a guide, and even then it was none-trivial.
Both things are easily sorted out though, and I don't doubt Linux will one
day be ready for the desktop.

Only time will tell. I wish you luck.

It's all going great so far ! <scoots off to touch some wood>

Congratulations on your half of an excellent debate ! It's very rare to find
people on Usenet who don't just resort to insults and namecalling at the
first sign of a challenge

 

[Haggard the Horrendous]

Ah, that explains your standpoint then.

Yup. Security is one of the few fields where being paranoid and a
control freak are good things.

Mandrake and Redhat within the last year, but various others before that.
All had the odd problem with my hardware (currently an nForce 2 based setup,
and stacks of USB stuff) - nothing too drastic, but it took lots and lots of
digging before I managed to find some decent instructions to install drivers
for things - and even with them, it was none-trivial.
The other bugbear I had, was installing software - again, couldn't be done
without a guide, and even then it was none-trivial.
Both things are easily sorted out though, and I don't doubt Linux will one
day be ready for the desktop.

Oh yeah. I'm prepared (at least I think I am) for a steep learning
curve. Working with Linux *does* requires a whole new shift in
thinking. That's why, since this computer does everything I *need* to
do, I'll keep W98 on it for now.

I'm planning to assemble a new computer based around the P4P800 MB
(which is why I'm in this NG). That one will only get Linux installed
on it. (Best way of forcing myself to learn it). Once I have it doing
what I need then I'll wipe this one and install Linux on it.
Fortunately my needs aren't extensive (I'm not a game player or
anything) and I'm already used to non-M$ alternatives in the way of
software. Now just to see how many visits Murphy pays.

Congratulations on your half of an excellent debate ! It's very rare to find
people on Usenet who don't just resort to insults and namecalling at the
first sign of a challenge

Anything else would put the lie to my belief that it's all about
choice. But thanks for the words.

btw. If you want, we could start a discussion involving politics
and/or religion? Betcha that would be cause for a few flamefests.

 

[troop]

I'm planning to assemble a new computer based around the P4P800 MB (which is why I'm in this NG).

Best place to do that is
http://www.abxzone.com/forums/index.php

Best Regards,

 

[Nom]

I'm planning to assemble a new computer based around the P4P800 MB
(which is why I'm in this NG)...

Any reason you've chosen Intel ?
I build PCs for people outside of work, and it's a long long time since I've
used Intel chips - their priceerformance ratio simply doesn't cut it any
more. And what with their excessive heat production (Prescott) and
not-as-good-as-the-Athlon-64 CPUs it'll probably be a long long time before
I go back

I built my work PC from Intel parts that we had lying around though, and
funnily enough, it's based around the P4P800-E-Deluxe as above. It's a fine
choice - I've found it to be an excellent board.

 

[Haggard the Horrendous]

Any reason you've chosen Intel ?

Not really and not specifically. First criteria was that due to
generally piss-poor across the board (pun intended) manufacturers
support there had to be a NG devoted to the manufacturer. I checked
the NG's and generally Asus was regarded as pretty good, quality wise.
Generally. Read the posts for a bit and posted a question. Most of the
responses recommended the P4C800 or P4P800. The specs looked good, met
my needs and it was stable. If more responses had recommended an AMD
board I would have gone that way.

I build PCs for people outside of work, and it's a long long time since I've
used Intel chips - their priceerformance ratio simply doesn't cut it any
more.

Quite possible. I read a bunch of the discussions (aka flamefests) and
decided that following them was the road to madness. And since I'm
already partway down that road...

And what with their excessive heat production (Prescott) and
not-as-good-as-the-Athlon-64 CPUs it'll probably be a long long time before
I go back

I wouldn't be going Prescott. Too much heat for too little gain.

I built my work PC from Intel parts that we had lying around though, and
funnily enough, it's based around the P4P800-E-Deluxe as above. It's a fine
choice - I've found it to be an excellent board.

I don't really *need* a new computer now. I just want to do it before
TCPA and DRM get established on the hardware level.

http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rja14/tcpa-faq.html

http://www.theregister.com/2004/10/19/nvidia_nforce_4/

Whoo Hoo. I knew I could bring it back to the paranoia if I tried,

 

[Geneve]

To suggest that all the above are great to have, and then suggest that an
outgoing firewall isn't necessary is just plain WACKO!

Personally I like having firewall outgoing protection when it can
discern it...

I use Zone Alarm registered (legal version subscribed)

 

[tk]

Outgoing protection isn't wacko, perhaps you are though.