Optimum cluster size...

H

Harry

I have to re-do my boot disk and am wondering if
specifying a larger than 4k cluster size would help
improve performance given that most processing will occur
with large files (video stuff -- up to 5GB in size).

Thanks for your time.

Harry
 
S

S.Heenan

Harry said:
I have to re-do my boot disk and am wondering if
specifying a larger than 4k cluster size would help
improve performance given that most processing will occur
with large files (video stuff -- up to 5GB in size).

The optimal cluster size for NTFS is 4KB. This size allows the use of NTFS
file compression, if desired, and keeps slack space to a minimum.
 
G

Guest

OK -- thanks... so I guess the message here is "don't try
to fool mother nature" -- just thought I'd ask.

Harry
 
M

MiiKey

Hi;
It's a question of balance.

NTSF at 4KB is v.efficient "slackwise" but may NOT be the speediest overall.
That size was selected by Ms for the OVERALL average system and user.
IF and only "IF" yours is markedly "deviant" from the norm then you MAY find
some (% is variable for each individual instance) "boost" or "lost" in
overall perf.

What is the average size of ALL of your files?

What is the PERCENTAGE of time you are exploiting those very large files?
Upwards of 50%==> Consider more and more as the % increases.

Total space used on the disk (minus swap file if set to a fixed size and on
the same disk) divided by # of files (including system, hidden, etc) = YOUR
Average.

Now check many PCs (5-10) with typical and complete"D" installations = The
close to TYPICAL Average.

Compare the figures.
Yours are twice or quadruple?

Remember that it is "ULTRA-TUNING" and it is far being NEEDED for the
"run-of-the-mill" machine!

Be it on FAT32 or NTSF formatted disks, the reported "efficiency" varied
[goes up (OR) down] from 2% to 7%.
The v. rare "STRAY" went to an about +/-11% variations.

Was that the real "worldwide" variation?
Many do NOT report.
Is it worthwhile?
You decide.

Whatever YOU decide: YOU set it then YOU live with it.

COMPLETE system wipe, partition, reformat and reinstall to alter aftewards.

Weight it!
 
C

Carey Frisch [MVP]

When performing a clean install, Microsoft recommends that NTFS be used and
that the system be installed in a single partition on each disk. Under Windows XP,
big partitions are better managed than in previous versions of Windows. Forcing
installed software into several partitions on the disk necessitates longer seeks
when running the system and software.

Benchmarking on Windows XP
http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/hwdev/platform/performance/benchmark.mspx

NTFS Preinstallation and Windows XP
http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/hwdev/tech/storage/ntfs-preinstall.mspx

--
Carey Frisch
Microsoft MVP
Windows XP - Shell/User

Be Smart! Protect your PC!
http://www.microsoft.com/security/protect/

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------


|I have to re-do my boot disk and am wondering if
| specifying a larger than 4k cluster size would help
| improve performance given that most processing will occur
| with large files (video stuff -- up to 5GB in size).
|
| Thanks for your time.
|
| Harry
 
C

Carey Frisch [MVP]

Because file compression is not supported on cluster sizes above 4 KB,
the default NTFS cluster size for Windows XP Professional never exceeds 4 KB.

--
Carey Frisch
Microsoft MVP
Windows XP - Shell/User

Be Smart! Protect your PC!
http://www.microsoft.com/security/protect/

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"MiiKey" <savagem[-delete-]@sympatico.ca> rambled in message:

| Hi;
| It's a question of balance.
|
| NTSF at 4KB is v.efficient "slackwise" but may NOT be the speediest overall.
| That size was selected by Ms for the OVERALL average system and user.
| IF and only "IF" yours is markedly "deviant" from the norm then you MAY find
| some (% is variable for each individual instance) "boost" or "lost" in
| overall perf.
|
| What is the average size of ALL of your files?
|
| What is the PERCENTAGE of time you are exploiting those very large files?
| Upwards of 50%==> Consider more and more as the % increases.
|
| Total space used on the disk (minus swap file if set to a fixed size and on
| the same disk) divided by # of files (including system, hidden, etc) = YOUR
| Average.
|
| Now check many PCs (5-10) with typical and complete"D" installations = The
| close to TYPICAL Average.
|
| Compare the figures.
| Yours are twice or quadruple?
|
| Remember that it is "ULTRA-TUNING" and it is far being NEEDED for the
| "run-of-the-mill" machine!
|
| Be it on FAT32 or NTSF formatted disks, the reported "efficiency" varied
| [goes up (OR) down] from 2% to 7%.
| The v. rare "STRAY" went to an about +/-11% variations.
|
| Was that the real "worldwide" variation?
| Many do NOT report.
| Is it worthwhile?
| You decide.
|
| Whatever YOU decide: YOU set it then YOU live with it.
|
| COMPLETE system wipe, partition, reformat and reinstall to alter aftewards.
|
| Weight it!
 
C

cquirke (MVP Win9x)

On Wed, 17 Mar 2004 09:30:15 -0800, "Harry"
I have to re-do my boot disk and am wondering if
specifying a larger than 4k cluster size would help
improve performance given that most processing will occur
with large files (video stuff -- up to 5GB in size).

Possibly not, because 4k is a very attractive size for virtual memory
paging (since invention in the i386, this has been hard-coded to
operate in 4k chunks).

So I use 4k on C:, but larger cluster for large streaming content for
reasons you describe. On video editing systems that use a separate
RAID 0 workspace, I've been setting the largest size for RAID's blocks
as well. I leave the system HD (C: etc.) un-RAID'd, set up as:

C: FAT32 7.99G OS, swap, temp, core apps; nil else
Extended...
D: FAT16 2G small data files
E: FAT32 or NTFS, laaargeG work-in-progress "parking" space
F: FAT16 2G "cold storage" i386, auto-backups from D:, etc.

That way, C: is fast to maintain, and no matter how fragged it gets,
the head travel should always be within the first 10% of the HD.

Whether you use FAT32 or NTFS is up to you (especially for E:, where
you may need support for single files over 2G in size). There are
pros and cons either way, both for speed as well as survivability.


-------------------- ----- ---- --- -- - - - -
Running Windows-based av to kill active malware is like striking
a match to see if what you are standing in is water or petrol.
 
C

cquirke (MVP Win9x)

On Wed, 17 Mar 2004 13:41:31 -0600, "Carey Frisch [MVP]"
When performing a clean install, Microsoft recommends that NTFS be used and
that the system be installed in a single partition on each disk.

Yeah, but MS has also recommended:
- autorunning scripts in unsolicited email "message text"
- dumping downloaded .EXE in the data set
- using up to 1G+ for web cache PER USER PROFILE
- using NTFS in consumerland
- not bothering to back up in consumerland
- not bothing to look at file extensions when "opening" files

That's going by duhfaults, such as "hide file name extensions", "run
email messages in Internet Zone", "IE default save location is My
Documents" (as well as web pages that suggest putting .EXE there so SR
doesn't fiddle with them), offering Disk Compression but no Backup as
the Win9x installation duh-faults, not offering Backup with XP Home
even as they push NTFS at them, etc.

So please, don't cite MS advice as "best practice" !
Under Windows XP, big partitions are better managed than in previous
versions of Windows.

YMMV there; Defrag does tend to strew material from one end of the
volume to the other. Do you have documentation on how MS decides what
should go at the far end, for maximum head travel? Even when the
entire file set is 10G on a 120G HD?
Forcing installed software into several partitions on the disk
necessitates longer seeks when running the system and software.

Well, that's the result if your partitioning logic is poor, sure.

What I do is:

7.99G FAT32 C: (4k clusters, OS, core apps, page file, temp)
Extended:
2G FAT16 D: (the cleaned-out "My Documents" objects)
largeG FAT32 E: (games, bulky stuff)
2G FAT16 F: (autobackups, "cold storage")

More on "cleaned-out My Documents" and "bulky stuff":

By duhfault, MS dumps incoming ?malware (IE downloads, MS Messenger's
unsolicited "My Recieved Files") and bulky material (My Pictures, My
Music, My Videos) in the My Documents data set - making this too big
to backup, and polluting it with incoming malware that may be brought
back onto the system after a payload-necessitated rebuild.

That's the junk I rip out of the data set and relocate to E:

With the above scheme, C: can blow itself to pieces and the data's
safe. The inevitable auto-check that follows bad exits may kill, bury
and deny files when it "fixes" them, but that's less likely to happen
to D:. Defragging and ChkDsking C: is quick, because C: is small, and
less hassle with the big E:, because the big E: is seldom in use.

No matter how sharp, lazy or just plain clueless Defrag's file
positioning logic may be, C: and D: (combined) can never be worse than
the first 10% of a 120G HD. The heads will never have to step over
all the gunk on E: just to swap, temp or make new files, when E: is
not un use. So even after you accumulate 90G of videos, pics and
music, the system stays as fast as it was when new.

If you decide to use NTFS, then C:'s MFT stays small, thus less likely
to break (large structures, longer critical window times).

This is a highly cynical and objectionable article.

Sure; once the OEM forces one big NTFS, the user's f$%!ed, because the
crappy Instant Restore CD enforces it, and nothing would convert back
from NTFS to FATxx. Much better than setting up as FAT32, and
allowing the user to convert to NTFS if they wanted to **, eh?

Great for OEMs; no pesky "what does it mean when Scandisk says..."
calls, and every virus infection or data burp can be fobbed off with
"NTFS? Sorry, nothing we can do - just run the Recovery CD".

** There is one technical advantage in installing directly to NTFS
rather than on FAT32 and converting later; the former allows more
appropriate per-file permissions, whereas the latter ends up with
"flat" permissions for everything as the installation process cannot
set permissions on FAT32.

So if you know it's more important to you to stop Other People from
reading your stuff than, say, being able to recover data or safely
remove malware without hosing the system, then go NTFS from Day Zero.


-- Risk Management is the clue that asks:
"Why do I keep open buckets of petrol next to all the
ashtrays in the lounge, when I don't even have a car?"
 

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