Move pagefile to faster drive ?

[Twayne]

In db typed on Sat, 22 Aug 2009 17:36:32 -0500:

I haven't found one yet. Name one and we will talk.

He's right. Go and find some of them yourself; you have the info, now
go and do your own verification.

Don't expect others to do your research for you.

 

[Twayne]

Photoshop works just fine without a paging file.

Windows will not function without a page file, It's not a "paging"
file; it's a "page" file. You cannot prevent a page file from being
created regadless of your settings.

 

[Twayne]

Applications only deal with virtual addressing. They don't care about
where data is actually stored - in physical memory or the paging file.
That is all internally to Windows. You cannot explicit code your
application to write to the paging file.

Oh, yes, you certainly can. It's "explicit" code that XP uses to do it;
nothing fancy, defined in the right KB, and talked about a lot in some
of the pro design groups. You're not a code writer, are you?

 

[Twayne]

perhaps, you should argue your
professional opinion with the
software engineers:

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/315270

Aww, I wouldn't have made it so easy for him<g>!
I did learn something though:
"
....If you modify the NTFS permissions on a volume in Windows, the System
account may be inadvertently removed from the partition. If this occurs,
the System account cannot manage some system resources such as the
paging file.

By default, the Everyone group has Full Control permissions on an NTFS
volume. This permission might have been removed to provide additional
security. Individual accounts, such as the Administrator account, may
have been added. However, the Everyone group includes the System
account. Removing the Everyone group without adding the System account
as an individual account renders the paging file unusable.
"

So, maybe you can't literally kill the pf but you CAN render it
unusable.
OK, since I learned someting today I can go back to bed now; chow!

Twayne`

 

[dennis]

Oh, yes, you certainly can. It's "explicit" code that XP uses to do it;
nothing fancy, defined in the right KB, and talked about a lot in some
of the pro design groups. You're not a code writer, are you?

You don't really know what I am talking about, do you?

 

[dennis]

Windows will not function without a page file

Of course it will, as long as there is a decent amount of physical ram.

 

[Twayne]

In my case, the older drive is probably at least 5 years older than
the new drive.

So it's gonna be faster.

Not necessarily. The only way to know that would be to compare the specs
for rpm, cache, etc.. Age has very, very little to do with it and
"faster" would never would be noticeable except with instrumentation.

How many files are on it is a matter of housekeeping.
Sure


If a fixed pagefile size is based on past page file usage, it is a
good choice.

If no other programs are ever run and no file larger than in the past is
ever edited, created. IN other words, if nothing ever changed.
Unlikely IMO simply due to updates, let alone natural progression of
using a computer.

And since it is fixed, it can be placed in a better position by
defragmenters.

Sort of, but the excessive waste of disk space 100% of the time only
hurts things IMO. The pf just won't become excessively fragmented
unless it is created that way on a highly fragmented disk to start with.
But OTOH it's not harmful either, so each to his own, really. IMO
it's just not a best practice type of thing unless an application
requires it. But it's not a huge deal, so no arguement with you.

Twayne`

 

[dennis]

Windows will not function without a page file, It's not a "paging"
file; it's a "page" file. You cannot prevent a page file from being
created regadless of your settings.

A "paging file" is synonym for "page file". And no, if you disable it,
it is disabled.

 

[John John - MVP]

This really has nothing whatsoever to do with the pagefile/no pagefile
debate. If the pagefile is disabled Windows will not try to create a
paging file on the volume, so permissions are irrelevant.

John

 

[Lil' Dave]

I recently put a second drive on my computer.

My primary drive is 18.6 GB and the 2nd drive is 160 Gb.

Would it be beneficial to move my fixed pagefile to the new drive?
(I am assuming that the 2nd drive is probably a little faster.)


Thanks.

If your assumption is correct and you do it like I instruct, yes. On the
bare hard drive, create a 4GB partition while in XP. Preferrably NTFS.
Move the swapfile assignment to that partition letter and its size
determined by XP, reboot. Disable system restore for the same partition
letter. Use that partition for nothing else.

XP will revert to the default location if there is ever a removal of that
partition or access to it.

 

[db]

in theory, one should be able to
run all programs in memory.

the more memory the better.

but the fact is that in practice, there
are programs that are written to
utilize the page file.

this is likely due to the fact that
memory in pc's all over the world
can be anywhere from 64 megs
to ??? (over 6 gigs).

so it is my belief that software
developers are in a conundrum
when writing software for use
on many differring configuration,
is pc's with different amounts
of memory

to circumvent the conundrum,
the software is written for the
minimal memory requirements.

and for any additional need for
memory the failsafe is coded
into the software, which is the
page file / virtual memory.

--------------

in theory, one should be able to
run everything in memory with the
more ram one has.

but in practice the memory amounts
are an unknown variable.

however the paging / virtual memory
is a known variable.

---------------

I sent you the kb because it simply
showed that microsoft has addressed
issues that occur when the page file
is turned off or too small.

it was just some proof that you couldn't
really turn off the virtual memory with
out having an error.

----------------

another program that uses virtual memory
is windows defrag.

----------------

all of the above is simply my
understanding.

I haven't studied any white papers
on the page file because it is something
that we shouldn't have to watch over.

the virtual memory / page file simply
helps us to not worry about the mechanics
of windows so that we can simply enjoy
and use windows instead.

if you do have written contradictions
or white papers that disputes any of
the above, then please provide them.

but if not then be sure to follow my
rule:

"do as I do and not as I say".

therefore, in order for the above
to be applied from you,

you would be using your system
without virtual memory for a good
while in order to validate your
argument.

but somehow I don't think you
have been using windows without
any virtual memory.


--
db·´¯`·...¸><)))º>
DatabaseBen, Retired Professional
- Systems Analyst
- Database Developer
- Accountancy
- Veteran of the Armed Forces
- @Hotmail.com

"share the nirvana mann" - dbZen

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

[John John - MVP]

this is likely due to the fact that
memory in pc's all over the world
can be anywhere from 64 megs
to ??? (over 6 gigs).

so it is my belief that software
developers are in a conundrum
when writing software for use
on many differring configuration,
is pc's with different amounts
of memory

to circumvent the conundrum,
the software is written for the
minimal memory requirements.

and for any additional need for
memory the failsafe is coded
into the software, which is the
page file / virtual memory.

Nonsense. Windows is a Virtual Memory operating system and all
applications have access to a flat 2GB Virtual Address Space. The
Windows Virtual Memory Manager translates this Virtual Address Space
into hardware addresses, unless the application is using Address
Windowing Extensions it has no clue as to where its code and data
actually resides.

John

 

[Twayne]

Of course it will, as long as there is a decent amount of physical
ram.

That shows exactly what over snipping can do:

Windows will create its own pagefile even if you set it to OFF. It
starts out large enough to hold mini dumps if that's what you're set
for; Full dumps if you're set that way. So, windows does not/will not
run without a pagefile, because it creates one where it needs it, rather
than crash.

 

[Twayne]

A "paging file" is synonym for "page file". And no, if you disable it,
it is disabled.

You need to do more research on what happens when you turn off the page
file.
Also, a "page file" is a "paging file" but a "paging file" is not just a
"page file".

Twayne`

 

[Twayne]

This really has nothing whatsoever to do with the pagefile/no pagefile
debate. If the pagefile is disabled Windows will not try to create a
paging file on the volume, so permissions are irrelevant.

lol, he's a lot closer than you are! That KB is a great beginning; keep
going now and you'll find the details you need to be aware of in order
to participate here.

 

[Twayne]

Nonsense. Windows is a Virtual Memory operating system and all
applications have access to a flat 2GB Virtual Address Space. The
Windows Virtual Memory Manager translates this Virtual Address Space
into hardware addresses, unless the application is using Address
Windowing Extensions it has no clue as to where its code and data
actually resides.

John

Actually, it does. Every address' location is known to the table/s.

 

[John John - MVP]

lol, he's a lot closer than you are! That KB is a great beginning; keep
going now and you'll find the details you need to be aware of in order
to participate here.

You really are utterly clueless. As usual you don't know what you are
talking about so you blow smoke through your hat! Perhaps *you* should
read the article again and this time engage your brain so that you might
understand what the article says! The article states:

CAUSE

This error message may occur *if* Windows tries to create a paging file
on an NTFS volume, but the System and Administrators accounts do not
have the correct NTFS permissions on the volume.

*If* the system is configured to *not* create a pagefile this is a non
issue. Of course I wouldn't expect you to know any better...

John

 

[John John - MVP]

Actually, it does. Every address' location is known to the table/s.

More B/S! The applications don't write or read directly to RAM and
unless they are using AWE they have no clue whatsoever as to where their
code and data actually resides!

Memory Manager

The 32-bit versions of Windows are able to address 232 bytes (4 GB) of
memory by default. Windows splits that memory, allocating 2 GB of memory
to the kernel and up to 2 GB of memory to each application’s private
address space. This is done in order to provide protection for both the
operating system and the applications. The kernel mode functions get 2
GB so that they will have enough room to perform mandatory processes
without running out of space. User mode applications therefore cannot
address memory in the kernel mode space and accidentally corrupt kernel
mode memory.

Each application can also utilize up to 2 GB of memory. This is true
regardless of the number of applications on the server and despite the
operating system’s ability to natively recognize only 4 GB of total
memory. If the total memory requirements of all applications exceed 4
GB, the memory manager uses a paging file to substitute for RAM. This
process is described in the following paragraphs.

The memory manager is responsible for allocating and tracking memory
assignments for both the kernel and applications. The memory manager
translates virtual memory addresses used by the operating system and
applications to actual physical memory locations. The translation of
virtual memory to physical memory is transparent to the applications.
User mode processes are never able to directly write to real memory and
never actually know where their data resides. A user mode process can
request a block of memory and write to it. The data written to the
memory location might be written to real memory, or might be written to
a paging file. A paging file (also known as a swap file) is a file on
the hard disk that the memory manager uses to hold data that does not
fit in memory. The memory manager moves data from the paging file to
memory as needed and moves data from memory to the paging file to make
room for new data.

[end quote]

http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc786709(WS.10).aspx

All user applications use Virtual Addresses, they don't translate
anything to physical addresses and they don't know where their code and
data actually is! And that applies even if you run without a pagefile,
the applications will still be living in the Virtual Addressing realm,
the Virtual Memory Manager will translate the VAS to RAM addresses.

You're not in Kansas any more, Dorothy. And Windows XP doesn't run on
x86 processors with Local Descriptor Tables! Maybe it's time that *you*
did a bit of reading:

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms810616.aspx
The Virtual-Memory Manager in Windows NT

John

 

[John John - MVP]

You need to do more research on what happens when you turn off the page
file.
Also, a "page file" is a "paging file" but a "paging file" is not just a
"page file".

Of all your preposterous posts that one takes the cake! Would you care
to take your foot out of your mouth long enough to explain your logic?
Or will you just stick your other foot in there and keep on arguing
about things you know nothing of?

From Microsoft glossaries:

page file

A file on the hard disk that holds parts of applications and data
files that do not fit in memory. Data is moved from the page file to
memory as needed and moved back to the page file to make room for new
data. The paging file and physical memory, or RAM, comprise virtual
memory. Also called a swap file.

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa459177.aspx


paging file

A hidden file or files on the hard disk that Windows uses to hold parts
of programs and data files that do not fit in memory. The paging file
and physical memory, or random access memory (RAM), comprise virtual
memory. Windows moves data from the paging file to memory as needed and
moves data from memory to the paging file to make room for new data.
Also known as a swap file.

http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc778676(WS.10).aspx

John

 

[dennis]

but the fact is that in practice, there
are programs that are written to
utilize the page file.

Nope. There are no API for doing that. And only the kernel have access
to it.

when writing software for use
on many differring configuration,
is pc's with different amounts
of memory

And that is why virtual addressing is so beautiful. As a programmer you
don't have to care one bit about it, it is all virtualized. Windows will
take care of it for you.