Microsoft...Please help these people!

[Wendy Lavender]

I have been reading the recent posts to this group and almost every one has
to do with networking Vista and XP or just trying to get their darn printer
to work through the network using both the OS.........for goodness sake
MICROSOFT help these people with a plain language tutorial on how to get the
two OS talking to each other and keep it simple. You have developed an OS
with so much security in it that the ordinary household can't wade it's way
through it.......most of us don't need all that stuff. We just want our
desktop to talk to the laptop in the living room and vice versa.
I came into the group looking for answers and found that I wasn't the only
one.
I am no expert, far from it, just a grandmother who enjoys computing. So
I've typed out how I got my Vista desktop and XP laptop to communicate if
anyone wants to contact me privately. It may not work for you but might
give you an idea on how to solve your problem.
Also everyone, Google is a wonderful place to start looking........there is
always someone out there who has solved it already and they need lots of
thanks.
Wendy
lotsoflavender@*yahoo*.com*.au* remove the *

 

[Malke]

I have been reading the recent posts to this group and almost every one
has to do with networking Vista and XP or just trying to get their darn
printer to work through the network using both the OS.........for
goodness sake MICROSOFT help these people with a plain language tutorial
on how to get the two OS talking to each other and keep it simple. You
have developed an OS with so much security in it that the ordinary
household can't wade it's way through it.......most of us don't need all
that stuff. We just want our desktop to talk to the laptop in the
living room and vice versa.
I came into the group looking for answers and found that I wasn't the
only one.
I am no expert, far from it, just a grandmother who enjoys computing.
So I've typed out how I got my Vista desktop and XP laptop to
communicate if anyone wants to contact me privately. It may not work
for you but might give you an idea on how to solve your problem.
Also everyone, Google is a wonderful place to start looking........there
is always someone out there who has solved it already and they need lots
of thanks.
Wendy
lotsoflavender@*yahoo*.com*.au* remove the *

It's nice that you've offered to help people directly. You might be the
most wonderful and trustworthy person in the world, but I wouldn't
recommend to anyone that they contact a stranger for help with their
computer. If you really want to provide help, then put up a website
where people can go instead of providing you with their email addresses.

There are many Microsoft and non-Microsoft websites that do exactly what
you describe - give directions for various tasks in language as simple
as possible. Sometimes it is not possible to be completely simple when
the tasks are complex - in any operating system. The difficult truth is
that computers are not simple machines even though they are marketed as
such.

You've also addressed your message to Microsoft and you should be aware
that you are not talking to Microsoft by posting here. These are public
Usenet newsgroups hosted on Microsoft servers. While MS employees
occasionally post to the newsgroups, the vast majority of posters are
volunteers who don't work for the company.


Malke

 

[AJR]

Be aware of an "old" adage in the repair business "The main problem is
between the chair and the keyboard".

Many posts are legitimate in the sense that the perosn who posted has
researched the problem without success, however many do not RTFM (Read The
Friendly Manual) nor do they check the "Help and Support" functions or check
device OEM sites for information.

Most likely if it was possible to go back and check posts during the
introducction of XP the same people posting then are doing so now with
Vista - BTW - If you check microsoft.public.windowsxp.general newsgroup
today note that the posts equal or exceed those in the Vista generl
newsgroup.

 

[Wendy Lavender]

What you say is almost correct. But I'm not a complete idiot, I do know this
is a public Usenet but over the years I have contacted Microsoft without any
sucess and depleated my bank account while doing it. I've had most luck
using the newsgroups from people just like myself who are frustrated beyond
reasoning and I know that Microsoft do cruise the groups that's why I posted
here.
I do have a website that's totally unrelated to computing and when time
allows I will be uploading any information I can gather that may help
others.
You have a website, perhaps you could add your suggestions to it so they can
be access by a wider community?
Cheers
Wendy

 

[Wendy Lavender]

Yep I'm definitely old and between the chair and the keyboard ))

I'll agree, many don't RTFM or can't even tell you where the Help and
Support icon is but in this case I read the F manual, Help and Support
(which it doesn't) checked the device OEM (Dell) which was a waste of time.
For starters, the information on the LLTD patch was not entirely easy to
find at MS and that was AFTER I found out I needed it. Most are still at
the "don't know they need it" bit.

If they're still posting to numerous groups, then they really are stuck and
still looking for answers.

 

[AJR]

Amen!

Yep I'm definitely old and between the chair and the keyboard ))

I'll agree, many don't RTFM or can't even tell you where the Help and
Support icon is but in this case I read the F manual, Help and Support
(which it doesn't) checked the device OEM (Dell) which was a waste of
time. For starters, the information on the LLTD patch was not entirely
easy to find at MS and that was AFTER I found out I needed it. Most are
still at the "don't know they need it" bit.

If they're still posting to numerous groups, then they really are stuck
and still looking for answers.

 

[Guest]

Wendy Lavender,

Actually, there are a number of us who monitor our relevant newsgroups
regularly. Did you know that for May alone, there've been 10 different
Microsoft employees posting to this very newsgroup at least once; and some
posted many more than once.

We hear the feedback from the user group that there is some pain around the
changes in file and printer sharing. We even dedicated two sessions to just
those topics during the recent MVP Summit. We work closely with our MVP's
and Techbeta audience to provide us much appreciated feedback on early builds
of Vista.

Not only that, but we have added lots of detail to local and online help
resources for users. In making Vista more secure out of the box, we realize
we made it more challenging for the user to do things that were quite simple
in XP. But we worked hard with our customers during many rounds of usability
tests, and redesigns. We still have more work to do to make this easier.

To that end, we sincerely appreciate the feedback provided by you, our
users. If you would like to play a greater role in the design of our
software, then check out how to become a Microsoft MVP, or join the TechBeta
group. We value your positive and almost more, your negative feedback. We
realize that if we don't please you, we will lose you as a customer. We
don't want to lose a single one of you. It's hard to design software that's
intuitive for advanced users, while not intimidating our average users. We
have a long way to go.

Thanks for your patience.

 

[...winston]

Kim,
Thanks for the history.

As a long time Msft stockholder and newsgroup contributor, I'm glad to see the visit and posting of Msft personnel in these forums, just as we all value the support and expertise of the talented MVP's and other personnel contributing their knowledge on a volunteer basis. Any new information by anyone on problem areas(solutions and even complaints with added content) brought to the table is helpful to all.

If I read Ms. Lavender's request properly her primary point was in suggesting a much better, simpler and easily available plain English non technical tutorial(than perceived as available today) to remedy networking problems for the ordinary household users. I also suspect that an 'ordinary household' user by her definition is probably not an mvp or beta tester though depending upon area of expertise or application specific interest there is an 'ordinary household user' in all of us.

The inclusion of the following, while interesting from a statistic or information perspective, probably did not meet her request.
a. How many Msft personnel monitor this or other relevant newsgroups
b .How often someone from Msft posted
c. How to become an MVP
d. How to join a Tech Beta group

Keep up the good work and pass on thanks to Gloria, Gabe, Ken, Shubhankar, Rama, Rakesh. Pradeep, Michael, Meredith, Kim, Karl, Jill, Charlene, and Jay. Maybe this team can meet Wendy's tutorial request.

...winston

: Wendy Lavender,
:
: Actually, there are a number of us who monitor our relevant newsgroups
: regularly. Did you know that for May alone, there've been 10 different
: Microsoft employees posting to this very newsgroup at least once; and some
: posted many more than once.
:
: We hear the feedback from the user group that there is some pain around the
: changes in file and printer sharing. We even dedicated two sessions to just
: those topics during the recent MVP Summit. We work closely with our MVP's
: and Techbeta audience to provide us much appreciated feedback on early builds
: of Vista.
:
: Not only that, but we have added lots of detail to local and online help
: resources for users. In making Vista more secure out of the box, we realize
: we made it more challenging for the user to do things that were quite simple
: in XP. But we worked hard with our customers during many rounds of usability
: tests, and redesigns. We still have more work to do to make this easier.
:
: To that end, we sincerely appreciate the feedback provided by you, our
: users. If you would like to play a greater role in the design of our
: software, then check out how to become a Microsoft MVP, or join the TechBeta
: group. We value your positive and almost more, your negative feedback. We
: realize that if we don't please you, we will lose you as a customer. We
: don't want to lose a single one of you. It's hard to design software that's
: intuitive for advanced users, while not intimidating our average users. We
: have a long way to go.
:
: Thanks for your patience.
:
:
: "Wendy Lavender" wrote:
:
: > I have been reading the recent posts to this group and almost every one has
: > to do with networking Vista and XP or just trying to get their darn printer
: > to work through the network using both the OS.........for goodness sake
: > MICROSOFT help these people with a plain language tutorial on how to get the
: > two OS talking to each other and keep it simple. You have developed an OS
: > with so much security in it that the ordinary household can't wade it's way
: > through it.......most of us don't need all that stuff. We just want our
: > desktop to talk to the laptop in the living room and vice versa.
: > I came into the group looking for answers and found that I wasn't the only
: > one.
: > I am no expert, far from it, just a grandmother who enjoys computing. So
: > I've typed out how I got my Vista desktop and XP laptop to communicate if
: > anyone wants to contact me privately. It may not work for you but might
: > give you an idea on how to solve your problem.
: > Also everyone, Google is a wonderful place to start looking........there is
: > always someone out there who has solved it already and they need lots of
: > thanks.
: > Wendy
: > lotsoflavender@*yahoo*.com*.au* remove the *
: >
: >

 

[Greg]

Big deal. 10 semi-voluntary MS employees worldwide answering newsgroup
queries. We appreciate what you moonlighting MS employees do, but that's the
point - what kind of support is that? Practically none. Help is usually
useless and unwilling to admit the possibility that something outside the
accepted norm has happened and it often implies that it's simply your fault.

You said "It's hard to design software that's intuitive for advanced users,
while not intimidating our average users." Yet I see plenty of advanced
users who know what they are talking about in these groups still intimidated
and bamboozled by Vista's befuddling and incomprehensible behaviour. It's
not just non-intuitive for people with an IQ under a hundred, it's
non-intuitive to many many intelligent people. Ordinary users should not
have to go through all this hassle just to make the stinking OS do what it
should in the first place.

And it's amusing to say "We realize that if we don't please you, we will
lose you as a customer." You know that's not true, and is the root of the
whole problem - Windows is a virtual monopoly and most people have no choice
but to deal with it. There is almost no competition and that's why MS
(officially - I'm not disparaging the efforts of you guys) could care less
about their customers and release such flawed products.

I will say, however, that despite the many networking problems and other
minor annoyances of Vista, it is ten times better than XP was when it came
out, so MS have obviously learnt something. It is much more stable, crashes
far less, and handles lots of things better. But it appears to be no better
at networking than Win 95 was ten years ago, judging by all the complaints.

You said "We have a long way to go," and that's about the only thing that we
all agree on!

Greg

 

[Barb Bowman]

do you think
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/using/mce/expert/bowman_extenders.mspx
is too technical for the subject I covered? I'm interested in what
might make this kind of article better.

If I read Ms. Lavender's request properly her primary point was in suggesting a much better, simpler and easily available plain English non technical tutorial(than perceived as available today) to remedy networking problems for the ordinary household users. I also suspect that an 'ordinary household' user by her definition is probably not an mvp or beta tester though depending upon area of expertise or application specific interest there is an 'ordinary household user' in all of us.

--

Barb Bowman
MS Windows-MVP
Expert Zone & Vista Community Columnist
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/expertzone/meetexperts/bowman.mspx
http://blogs.digitalmediaphile.com/barb/

 

[Guest]

Wendy,

I'm apologize for waxing poetic, while never answering your question. We've
been honing our Help pages for months now, based a great deal off of feedback
from this community. Please check out the following pages, and let us know
if they don't help. Notice the links to other related articles at the bottom
of each article:
http://windowshelp.microsoft.com/Windows/en-US/Help/e3faee7d-a7cd-40aa-b240-006dca11dc451033.mspx

 

[...winston]

Hello Barb,
Your articles have always been easy to follow. The July 2003 article is still the primer for Wireless Security for Home Networks. I've sent many folks to that link with only a few follow up questions.
I read the Media Center network article and found it to very understandable even though I am not a Media Center or XBox user. Though I don't consider myself an 'average user' and after 30+yrs of computer use(I still believe that if one wants rain, just find some punch cards to carry to a data center...they'll be damp and wrinkled before arrival)

Would I be comfortable sending someone to that page..absolutely..could I send my sister who after 10 yrs of Windows pc use still asks how to open Windows Explorer and has every single file created in my documents without any nested folders save her pictures, probably not.

When writing something about Msft's inner workings knowing the audience is critical..though its probably a safe assumption for the foreseeable future that those capable of finding a newsgroup or knowing how to effectively search would also not be the ordinary household user, Wendy referenced.

While we can all hope the literacy rate and comprehension rate in real life is proportional to computer reading and comprehension is just isn't so. With Vista needing a little push to make networking function writing anything complex might achieve greater understanding at the grade level of newspapers and magazines(iirc most are at the 6-7th scale).

Keep up the good work, it's always good to see you around.!!

...winston


: do you think
: http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/using/mce/expert/bowman_extenders.mspx
: is too technical for the subject I covered? I'm interested in what
: might make this kind of article better.
:

 

[Barb Bowman]

I hope in some future day that all these networkable devices will be
intelligent and self discovering in a home environment so that at
the hardware/driver level it will be as simple as answering two
questions

1. do you want to add ______ to your network
2. check the names of the people (not computer names!) you want to
share_____________with and as they do so, record their fingerprint
with the built in fingerprint scanner.

and technologies that build upon LLTD, etc. will handle the hardware
and driver layer and bio-authentication will handle the credentials

I also see voice recognition technology somewhere in the mix.

But to return to reality, I do think that the steps to make things
work on a mixed XP/Vista network are still to hard for the casual
home user. My 80 year old (former engineer) cousin is my barometer.

When writing something about Msft's inner workings knowing the audience is critical..though its probably a safe assumption for the foreseeable future that those capable of finding a newsgroup or knowing how to effectively search would also not be the ordinary household user, Wendy referenced.

While we can all hope the literacy rate and comprehension rate in real life is proportional to computer reading and comprehension is just isn't so. With Vista needing a little push to make networking function writing anything complex might achieve greater understanding at the grade level of newspapers and magazines(iirc most are at the 6-7th scale).

--

Barb Bowman
MS Windows-MVP
Expert Zone & Vista Community Columnist
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/expertzone/meetexperts/bowman.mspx
http://blogs.digitalmediaphile.com/barb/

 

[...winston]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts Barb.
Just like that old Beatles tune with the verse and backing vocal
"I have to admit it's getting better, a little better all the time(Can't get no worse)"

I just wish for consistency. We've 4 units on our home network with a D-Link DI-624 router with latest firmware and all units using WPA2/PSK(something I learned from your article<g>).
Two Desktops
1. XPPro/Vista Ult.[dual boot] RJ45
2. Vista Ult(last unit added to network,was originally XP Pro) RJ45
Two laptops(wireless)
3. XP Pro with DLink DWL-G630
4. XP Home with DLink DWL-G630

All units have compatible hardware, latest bios, and in the case of Vista latest available network adapter drivers.

Everything(sharing- file and print) worked perfectly for 1, 2, 3, and 4 in XP. Adding Vista Ult to 1 in a dual boot was also pretty uneventful once Network and Sharing was setup and all units shutdown and restarted..in less than a minute they all found each other. No issues experienced later regardless which machine was started first like others reported. Changing/Adding the #2 Vista U to the mix was a battle(it was a new drive with clean install in perfectly Vista compatible prior XP Pro unit that networked without fail with 1, 3, and 4). Following the same sequence to set up the 2nd Vista unit worked but only intermittently. Ran all the available tests from Msft(acceptable results with the Internet Connectivity Eval Tool), firewall settings and permissions on all machines configured properly etc..
Not until I went back in the router settings and configured it for 802.11g only mode **and** to 'only allow computers by MAC address to access the network(still haven't figured out why the second works -- if I disable mac filtering that 2nd unit returns to intermittent..toggle it back on and everything works again flawlessly). Maybe something else(single obscure setting, registry anomaly etc) is present, but since it worked and no loss of functionality or security..I left it alone.

Would an 'casual home user' have a chance at doing this...probably not without outside support.
Would this work on another setup ? I don't know. It won't hurt anything as long as the hardware supports it, but I've seen mixed network machines that work without 802.11g only and mac allow filter settings.

Bring on the voice recognition, fingerprint and retina scans..I'm ready, until then I'll be content that our mixed network works!

..winston



:I hope in some future day that all these networkable devices will be
: intelligent and self discovering in a home environment so that at
: the hardware/driver level it will be as simple as answering two
: questions
:
: 1. do you want to add ______ to your network
: 2. check the names of the people (not computer names!) you want to
: share_____________with and as they do so, record their fingerprint
: with the built in fingerprint scanner.
:
: and technologies that build upon LLTD, etc. will handle the hardware
: and driver layer and bio-authentication will handle the credentials
:
: I also see voice recognition technology somewhere in the mix.
:
: But to return to reality, I do think that the steps to make things
: work on a mixed XP/Vista network are still to hard for the casual
: home user. My 80 year old (former engineer) cousin is my barometer.
:

 

[Barb Bowman]

I remember you posting some of this a few months back, but I don't
recall the details. I have to think the single obscure piece is a
combination of things and partially on the router side. I'm inclined
to not tinker if it is working in this (somewhat unexplainable)
combination of G only and mac filtering.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts Barb.
Just like that old Beatles tune with the verse and backing vocal
"I have to admit it's getting better, a little better all the time(Can't get no worse)"

I just wish for consistency. We've 4 units on our home network with a D-Link DI-624 router with latest firmware and all units using WPA2/PSK(something I learned from your article<g>).
Two Desktops
1. XPPro/Vista Ult.[dual boot] RJ45
2. Vista Ult(last unit added to network,was originally XP Pro) RJ45
Two laptops(wireless)
3. XP Pro with DLink DWL-G630
4. XP Home with DLink DWL-G630

All units have compatible hardware, latest bios, and in the case of Vista latest available network adapter drivers.

Everything(sharing- file and print) worked perfectly for 1, 2, 3, and 4 in XP. Adding Vista Ult to 1 in a dual boot was also pretty uneventful once Network and Sharing was setup and all units shutdown and restarted..in less than a minute they all found each other. No issues experienced later regardless which machine was started first like others reported. Changing/Adding the #2 Vista U to the mix was a battle(it was a new drive with clean install in perfectly Vista compatible prior XP Pro unit that networked without fail with 1, 3, and 4). Following the same sequence to set up the 2nd Vista unit worked but only intermittently. Ran all the available tests from Msft(acceptable results with the Internet Connectivity Eval Tool), firewall settings and permissions on all machines configured properly etc..
Not until I went back in the router settings and configured it for 802.11g only mode **and** to 'only allow computers by MAC address to access the network(still haven't figured out why the second works -- if I disable mac filtering that 2nd unit returns to intermittent..toggle it back on and everything works again flawlessly). Maybe something else(single obscure setting, registry anomaly etc) is present, but since it worked and no loss of functionality or security..I left it alone.

Would an 'casual home user' have a chance at doing this...probably not without outside support.
Would this work on another setup ? I don't know. It won't hurt anything as long as the hardware supports it, but I've seen mixed network machines that work without 802.11g only and mac allow filter settings.

Bring on the voice recognition, fingerprint and retina scans..I'm ready, until then I'll be content that our mixed network works!

..winston



:I hope in some future day that all these networkable devices will be
: intelligent and self discovering in a home environment so that at
: the hardware/driver level it will be as simple as answering two
: questions
:
: 1. do you want to add ______ to your network
: 2. check the names of the people (not computer names!) you want to
: share_____________with and as they do so, record their fingerprint
: with the built in fingerprint scanner.
:
: and technologies that build upon LLTD, etc. will handle the hardware
: and driver layer and bio-authentication will handle the credentials
:
: I also see voice recognition technology somewhere in the mix.
:
: But to return to reality, I do think that the steps to make things
: work on a mixed XP/Vista network are still to hard for the casual
: home user. My 80 year old (former engineer) cousin is my barometer.
:

--

Barb Bowman
MS Windows-MVP
Expert Zone & Vista Community Columnist
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/expertzone/meetexperts/bowman.mspx
http://blogs.digitalmediaphile.com/barb/

 

[...winston]

I don't recall posting about my units g and mac network issues, but I do recall suggesting mac filtering with respect to fine tuning security for allowable pcs on the net(especially when one doesn't use strong encryption by choice or an inability to use Wpa/Wpa2/Psk due to hardware constraints)

I'm fortunate, I'm so rural in location I've yet to see any network except mine but, lol, hardly naive enough to believe that the lack of other networks' presence is a substitute for not securing a network to its fullest capacity.

Agreed on leaving things alone..one day I'll dig deeper into each setting or maybe not<g>
..winston

:I remember you posting some of this a few months back, but I don't
: recall the details. I have to think the single obscure piece is a
: combination of things and partially on the router side. I'm inclined
: to not tinker if it is working in this (somewhat unexplainable)
: combination of G only and mac filtering.
:
:

 

[Barb Bowman]

sounds like a plan to me.

I don't recall posting about my units g and mac network issues, but I do recall suggesting mac filtering with respect to fine tuning security for allowable pcs on the net(especially when one doesn't use strong encryption by choice or an inability to use Wpa/Wpa2/Psk due to hardware constraints)

I'm fortunate, I'm so rural in location I've yet to see any network except mine but, lol, hardly naive enough to believe that the lack of other networks' presence is a substitute for not securing a network to its fullest capacity.

Agreed on leaving things alone..one day I'll dig deeper into each setting or maybe not<g>
..winston

:I remember you posting some of this a few months back, but I don't
: recall the details. I have to think the single obscure piece is a
: combination of things and partially on the router side. I'm inclined
: to not tinker if it is working in this (somewhat unexplainable)
: combination of G only and mac filtering.
:
:

--

Barb Bowman
MS Windows-MVP
Expert Zone & Vista Community Columnist
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/expertzone/meetexperts/bowman.mspx
http://blogs.digitalmediaphile.com/barb/

 

[Guest]

I have been reading the recent posts to this group and almost every one has
to do with networking Vista and XP or just trying to get their darn printer
to work through the network using both the OS.........for goodness sake
MICROSOFT help these people with a plain language tutorial on how to get the
two OS talking to each other and keep it simple. You have developed an OS
with so much security in it that the ordinary household can't wade it's way
through it.......most of us don't need all that stuff. We just want our
desktop to talk to the laptop in the living room and vice versa.
I came into the group looking for answers and found that I wasn't the only
one.
I am no expert, far from it, just a grandmother who enjoys computing. So
I've typed out how I got my Vista desktop and XP laptop to communicate if
anyone wants to contact me privately. It may not work for you but might
give you an idea on how to solve your problem.
Also everyone, Google is a wonderful place to start looking........there is
always someone out there who has solved it already and they need lots of
thanks.
Wendy
lotsoflavender@*yahoo*.com*.au* remove the *

 

[Guest]

Do you in any way think that Microsoft wants to help anyone, my god, they are
teh most Gestopo company on the planet. They in no way care about you and me.
Clearly a trash company.