Logos/buttons show as plain boxes

[Fred Ma]

My posting doesn't seem to be making it to
microsoft.public.windows.inetexplorer.ie6.browse.
I'm posting again. Sorry if it shows up twice.

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Logos/buttons show as plain boxes
Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 05:24:00 -0400
From: Fred Ma <[email protected]>
Newsgroups: microsoft.public.windows.inetexplorer.ie6.setup,microsoft.public.windows.inetexplorer.ie6.browse

Hello,

I'm usiing MS-IE 6 on Win2K. When I download a page e.g.
http://www.library.carleton.ca/eresources/db_titles.html#A
the CU or FT logos would sometimes show up as blank boxes.
It seems random. Sometimes CU is missing, sometimes FT is
missing. I can reload the page several times, but it's
unpredictable which logo will show as a blank box. This is
not the only page where little designation marks show up as
boxes. I've tried mucking around with various switches in
my internet options (advance tab), but none stand out as
likely candidates for causing this problem. Thanks if any-
one can clue me in on what is causing this. Its is extremely
annoying.

Fred

 

[Robert Aldwinckle]

My posting doesn't seem to be making it to
microsoft.public.windows.inetexplorer.ie6.browse.
I'm posting again. Sorry if it shows up twice.

Hmm... you're right. msnews has not seen

Message-ID: <[email protected]>

(yet.) Google Groups has both. Neither of MS web interfaces
have that one either.

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Logos/buttons show as plain boxes
Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 05:24:00 -0400
From: Fred Ma <[email protected]>
Newsgroups: microsoft.public.windows.inetexplorer.ie6.setup,microsoft.public.windows.inetexplorer.ie6.browse

Hello,

I'm usiing MS-IE 6 on Win2K. When I download a page e.g.
http://www.library.carleton.ca/eresources/db_titles.html#A
the CU or FT logos would sometimes show up as blank boxes.
It seems random. Sometimes CU is missing, sometimes FT is
missing. I can reload the page several times, but it's
unpredictable which logo will show as a blank box. This is
not the only page where little designation marks show up as
boxes. I've tried mucking around with various switches in
my internet options (advance tab), but none stand out as
likely candidates for causing this problem.

By "blank boxes" I assume you mean Red-X?
Nothing on the Advanced tab. It's the General tab's Settings...
button you want. Choose Every visit to the page.

BTW it seems very peculiar to make those graphic images.
Why not just use HTML to change the color of the equivalent text?
The good thing is that at least they have given some ALT= text
to go with them.


HTH

Robert Aldwinckle
---

 

[fred ma]

Sorry for the late follow-up(below), but I neglected to look for
response material below the "---original message---" line.

By "blank boxes" I assume you mean Red-X?
Nothing on the Advanced tab. It's the General tab's Settings...
button you want. Choose Every visit to the page.

No, it's just a box (with a smaller box inside of it).

BTW it seems very peculiar to make those graphic images.
Why not just use HTML to change the color of the equivalent text?
The good thing is that at least they have given some ALT= text
to go with them.

Sometimes, I see them when the buttons are slow to fill in with
button pictures. But it seems that in my case, they are often
permanent. I have the options set to check for new versions of
the stored page "automatically". I suspect it's not the problem,
since a new version of the web page is being checked for. This
is evident because when I press the ReLoad button, the buttons
that become boxes are different each time. I'm not at the PC
that has the problem, but I'll try changing that setting when I
next am. Thanks.

Fred

 

[Fred Ma]

No, it's just a box (with a smaller box inside of it).


Sometimes, I see them when the buttons are slow to fill in with
button pictures. But it seems that in my case, they are often
permanent. I have the options set to check for new versions of
the stored page "automatically". I suspect it's not the problem,
since a new version of the web page is being checked for. This
is evident because when I press the ReLoad button, the buttons
that become boxes are different each time.

Well, it turns out that the problem persists despite setting
Internet Options to check for new webpage versions on every visit
to the web page. Check it out:

http://www.library.carleton.ca/eresources/db_titles.html#A

Fred

 

[Robert Aldwinckle]

....

Well, it turns out that the problem persists despite setting
Internet Options to check for new webpage versions on every visit
to the web page. Check it out:

http://www.library.carleton.ca/eresources/db_titles.html#A

Apparently the whole thing is cached.
Therefore you should be able to re-render it (*not* refresh)
by setting Work Offline, loading About:Blank, and going back to it.
If About:Blank is your Home page you could do this by clicking on
the Offline, Home, and Back buttons. (Or press Alt-F,W,Alt-Home,
Alt-CursorLeft)


Oops. I just noticed in your other post that you may think that these
images are not Red-X and perhaps not even placeholders?
(Although I can't understand why you would see a "box" then.)
Perhaps your Display Properties won't allow these images or their Red-X
to be resized and rendered?

The IE5 Web Accessory Images List shows that there are seven
of these icons. Each has size 18x18. What's curious is that Images List
shows a "Count on Page" of 1 for all of them!


<excerpts from Partial Source>
http://www.library.carleton.ca/imag...tp://www.library.carleton.ca/images/st_ft.gif</excerpts
from Partial Source>
Can you see each of those? (In order to "see" blank.gif press Ctrl-a.)
BTW they all can also be zoomed, (e.g. in case you still see nothing
before zooming.)

If so, and since they seem to stay cached you could try changing
cache-checking to None and see what your page does then.


Good luck

Robert
---

 

[Fred Ma]

...

Apparently the whole thing is cached.
Therefore you should be able to re-render it (*not* refresh)
by setting Work Offline, loading About:Blank, and going back to it.
If About:Blank is your Home page you could do this by clicking on
the Offline, Home, and Back buttons. (Or press Alt-F,W,Alt-Home,
Alt-CursorLeft)

Yes, going to About:Blank, then going back, does work. Strange that
it should require this. And if I press reload, the boxes come back.

Oops. I just noticed in your other post that you may think that these
images are not Red-X and perhaps not even placeholders?
(Although I can't understand why you would see a "box" then.)
Perhaps your Display Properties won't allow these images or their Red-X
to be resized and rendered?

I put a copy of webpage with boxes at
http://www.doe.carleton.ca/~fma/Boxes.pdf
Note that the exact logos that take on the box-like shapes are not the
same each time I press reload.

The only Display Properties I know of are from right-clicking on the
desktop. There doesn't seem to be a likely candidate for the cause of
the problem in that panel.

The IE5 Web Accessory Images List shows that there are seven
of these icons. Each has size 18x18. What's curious is that Images List
shows a "Count on Page" of 1 for all of them!

What is the Web Accessory Images List?

<excerpts from Partial Source>
http://www.library.carleton.ca/imag...tp://www.library.carleton.ca/images/st_ft.gif</excerpts
from Partial Source>
Can you see each of those? (In order to "see" blank.gif press Ctrl-a.)
BTW they all can also be zoomed, (e.g. in case you still see nothing
before zooming.)

I took each http address and pasted it into the "Address" field of the
browser. The images look fine (blank.gif looks blank, of course).
I don't follow what you mean by pressing ctrl-a to see blank.gif. Is
this using some tool e.g. the Web Accessory? (I'm reading email using
Netscape Communicator 4.77 on solaris).

If so, and since they seem to stay cached you could try changing
cache-checking to None and see what your page does then.

I can't find cache checking in the Internet Explorer Help. It also
doesn't show up in the Internet Options, Advanced tab.

Thanks for your suggestions so far. If I have to, I'll create a
shortcut to About:Blank.

Fred

 

[Robert Aldwinckle]

(interleaved reply)

Yes, going to About:Blank, then going back, does work. Strange that
it should require this. And if I press reload, the boxes come back.


I put a copy of webpage with boxes at
http://www.doe.carleton.ca/~fma/Boxes.pdf
Note that the exact logos that take on the box-like shapes are not the
same each time I press reload.

The only Display Properties I know of are from right-clicking on the
desktop. There doesn't seem to be a likely candidate for the cause of
the problem in that panel.

That's what I meant. I was thinking that a different "Screen resolution"
might give you a different view of those icons. They really do look like
partial Red-X to me.

What is the Web Accessory Images List?

< http://www.microsoft.com/windows/ie/previous/webaccess/ie5wa.asp >

(Google web search for
ie5 "web accessories" site:microsoft.com
)


They mostly work on IE6. MVP Jim Byrd often posts a lists of mods
which make them work better.

<
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=i...ff=1&selm=#YTZa23nBHA.1516@tkmsftngp07&rnum=1 >

(Google Groups search for
ie5 "web accessories" author:byrd group:microsoft.*.browser
)


Damn OE! That list looked perfect when I sent it.
Shift-Enter to insert line breaks in that set of links...

http://www.library.carleton.ca/images/cu.gif
http://www.library.carleton.ca/images/ft.gif
http://www.library.carleton.ca/images/blank.gif
http://www.library.carleton.ca/images/st.gif
http://www.library.carleton.ca/images/im.gif
http://www.library.carleton.ca/images/im_ft.gif
http://www.library.carleton.ca/images/st_ft.gif

I took each http address and pasted it into the "Address" field of the
browser. The images look fine (blank.gif looks blank, of course).
I don't follow what you mean by pressing ctrl-a to see blank.gif. Is
this using some tool e.g. the Web Accessory? (I'm reading email using
Netscape Communicator 4.77 on solaris).

Ctrl-a is the keyboard equivalent of the Select All Edit command in IE
(and many other Microsoft products too.) Doing a Select All on the "page"
which contains only the image of the blank causes a reverse video image
of the blank, thus allowing you to see its size. Zooming it (e.g. using the
Web Accessory Zoom In) allows you to see the image larger.

I can't find cache checking in the Internet Explorer Help. It also
doesn't show up in the Internet Options, Advanced tab.

Cache checking is the feature that we used from my first reply to this
discussion to do it "Every visit..." Oh. Sorry. By None I meant Never.
Keystrokes: Alt-T,O,Alt-S,N

Thanks for your suggestions so far. If I have to, I'll create a
shortcut to About:Blank.

An alternative would be, after setting Work Offline, to clone the window:
Keystrokes: Alt-F,W,Ctrl-N


Robert
---

 

[Fred Ma]

Robert,

Thanks for the pointer on IE5 Web Accessory. However, I think you're right.
The problem is in fact related to screen resolution. I set the resolution
to 1024x768, which is less than the maximum. I don't have a need for such
a high resolution. Not only does it make things too fine, lines too
thin, and icons/pictures too small, but it also makes remote desktop
over a 32kbps lines unusable. Hence, I will leave the hi rez to
graphics artists.

The only things which I don't understand is why different icons are
unrenderable each time I hit reload.

Cache checking is the feature that we used from my first reply to this
discussion to do it "Every visit..." Oh. Sorry. By None I meant Never.
Keystrokes: Alt-T,O,Alt-S,N

Yes, tried all those.

An alternative would be, after setting Work Offline, to clone the window:
Keystrokes: Alt-F,W,Ctrl-N

I get asked to reconnect after Ctrl-N, but it seems easier than typing
in About:Blank. Thanks for your help.

Fred

 

[Robert Aldwinckle]

....

....
I get asked to reconnect after Ctrl-N

Really? Then that could be a clue that you have some spyware on board.
It's interesting that re-rendering in the same window and loading a new
one with identical content would have two different effects. The only other
explanation could be that some of its files were flushed to make room for
others (e.g. if you have an extremely small cache) because none of its files
would be flushed due to expiry. (I just reloaded it again and checked.)

I really wish that there was some way to discover while that prompt
was up exactly which connection it was being made for. It would make
this kind of diagnosis so much easier. Otherwise, unless the user has
some sniffer software he is forced to improvise using other less capable
tools.


Robert
---

 

[Fred Ma]

...

Really? Then that could be a clue that you have some spyware on board.
It's interesting that re-rendering in the same window and loading a new
one with identical content would have two different effects. The only other
explanation could be that some of its files were flushed to make room for
others (e.g. if you have an extremely small cache) because none of its files
would be flushed due to expiry. (I just reloaded it again and checked.)

It seems normal for me to be asked to reconnect. After all, Alt-F,W causes
MS-IE to work offline. (The key sequence was Alt-F,W,Ctrl-N).

One thing I neglected to mention last posting was that I don't just suspect
the screen resolution, I actually confirmed it. I set the resolution to the
native resolution of the screen (some number much higher than 1024x768) and
the logos stopped showing up as boxes. Repeatedly. The moment I stepped
down resolution, the problem came back again.

Anyway, thanks again for your suggestions. It is a workaround.

Fred

 

[Robert Aldwinckle]

....

It seems normal for me to be asked to reconnect. After all, Alt-F,W causes
MS-IE to work offline. (The key sequence was Alt-F,W,Ctrl-N).

If you aren't asked to reconnect when you load About:Blank
and then go back to re-render the page, why should you be asked
to reconnect when you try to clone the window? (FWIW I don't.)
That's why I am suggesting that some spyware could have its hooks
in the open window routine, something which would not be happening
when you just go back.

Try another test, a hybrid of the two. Launch About:Blank in a new
window and then go to the Carleton page. (Use History to avoid making
typos.) Again, when I do that there is no reconnect prompt. Unless our
hypothetical spyware is astute enough to avoid trying to connect to its
server for local pages you may get a prompt to connect with a new window
for About:Blank too. That would be even stronger evidence to support
the suspicion.

Since you don't have About:Blank as your Home page some instructions
I prepared recently for someone else on another issue may help:

<excerpt>
Please create a Desktop shortcut for About:Blank and give it a keyboard
shortcut of Ctrl-Alt-1. (Note: use a different key if you are already
using Ctrl-Alt-1 for something else or if you would prefer to use something
else; I am just giving that as an example to simplify further discussion.)

Detailed instructions for above:
1. open About:Blank
2. use File, Send, Shortcut to Desktop (Alt-F,e,S)
3. right-click the new Desktop icon, select Properties,
4. press Tab to enter the Shortcut key field, press 1 and Enter to set the
keyboard shortcut.
5. Ignore any error message. (If the shortcut was already there any
changes to it will be too.)

Test your change. E.g. press Ctrl-Alt-1 and verify an IE window is
launched with About:Blank opened.
</excerpt>


BTW thanks for the feedback about the screen resolution suggestion.
I was actually only anticipating that you would be able to see the Red-X
more clearly. I had no idea that it might affect the actual rendering of
the images. I have always thought that most invalid Red-X were due to
improperly handled network timing issues.


Robert
---

 

[Fred Ma]

I can't understand why my reponse hasn't shown up yet, so I'm
reposting...

From: Robert Aldwinckle ([email protected])
Subject: Re: Logos/buttons show as plain boxes
Newsgroups: microsoft.public.windows.inetexplorer.ie6.browser
Date: 2004-05-22 03:41:36 PST



If you aren't asked to reconnect when you load About:Blank
and then go back to re-render the page, why should you be asked
to reconnect when you try to clone the window? (FWIW I don't.)
That's why I am suggesting that some spyware could have its hooks
in the open window routine, something which would not be happening
when you just go back.

I think that I'm getting prompted to connect because the Alt-F,W
switches MS-IE to work offline.

Try another test, a hybrid of the two. Launch About:Blank in a new
window and then go to the Carleton page. (Use History to avoid making
typos.) Again, when I do that there is no reconnect prompt. Unless our
hypothetical spyware is astute enough to avoid trying to connect to its
server for local pages you may get a prompt to connect with a new window
for About:Blank too. That would be even stronger evidence to support
the suspicion.

Since you don't have About:Blank as your Home page some instructions
I prepared recently for someone else on another issue may help:

<excerpt>
Please create a Desktop shortcut for About:Blank and give it a keyboard
shortcut of Ctrl-Alt-1. (Note: use a different key if you are already
using Ctrl-Alt-1 for something else or if you would prefer to use something
else; I am just giving that as an example to simplify further discussion.)

Detailed instructions for above:
1. open About:Blank
2. use File, Send, Shortcut to Desktop (Alt-F,e,S)
3. right-click the new Desktop icon, select Properties,
4. press Tab to enter the Shortcut key field, press 1 and Enter to set the
keyboard shortcut.
5. Ignore any error message. (If the shortcut was already there any
changes to it will be too.)

Test your change. E.g. press Ctrl-Alt-1 and verify an IE window is
launched with About:Blank opened.
</excerpt>

Thanks for the educational material. I am not asked to reconnect, but
I think it's because in the above procedure, I never switch to working
offline. In any case, the repeatable trend is that I don't see boxes
when I backup to the webpage after About:Blank. Any reload causes the
boxes to show rather than the logos. The exact logos that are
replaced by boxes change each time I press reload.

BTW thanks for the feedback about the screen resolution suggestion.
I was actually only anticipating that you would be able to see the Red-X
more clearly. I had no idea that it might affect the actual rendering of
the images. I have always thought that most invalid Red-X were due to
improperly handled network timing issues.

I can't seem to repeat that. No matter what resolution I use, I now
get the above repeatable behaviour. When I first tried different
resolutions, I was connecting to the PC via remote desktop software
"VNC", wheras I am now sitting right at the PC console. Perhaps the
difference is due to using VNC, or it could have been human error on
my part.

Fred

P.S. My apologies that this posting responds to an earlier article,
thus messing up the threading. For some reason, my mail reader
doesn't show your latest posting (nor my response, whereas Google
Groups does show your latest posting.

 

[Robert Aldwinckle]

I think that I'm getting prompted to connect because the Alt-F,W

switches MS-IE to work offline.

Nope. As I explained the entire page is cached. As long as everything
is available offline you can browse offline without being prompted.
In some cases you can browse offline even though there is a prompt
if you cancel the prompt and insist that you want to stay offline.
E.g. that may happen if some embedded frames contain advertising
but the main page is still available for rendering. Normally you don't
even get a prompt if an image is missing. In that case it will just show
up as a Red-X.

It has to be something else and if there's "something else" it could
imply there's malware on board and that could explain any number
of odd symptoms, including your original symptom of Red-X.

However, I have just realized that we haven't discussed what happens
if you disallow the prompt. Try that please and report what happens.

If you have any way of tracing the requests which are being sent
as a result of letting IE connect instead I think it could be interesting.
If your Win2K is a server product you may have netmon which
could do it for you; otherwise the only (freeware) tool I am aware of
is Ethereal.

A poor alternative which might still show you something (e.g. unexpected
site name) would be

netstat -a -p tcp 3

(The 3 establishes a three second loop rate. Press Ctrl-c to end it.)

....
Thanks for the educational material. I am not asked to reconnect, but
I think it's because in the above procedure, I never switch to working
offline.

Sorry for not being clear in my instructions. I was expecting you
to replace the Ctrl-N with these two new steps and of course be
offline when you are doing them. The idea is that if you get a prompt
to connect by opening a window with About:Blank we will have exposed
more clearly that something is intercepting the open window function.
We would not expect you to get a prompt by actually going to the Library
page because you are browsing offline and the page is fully cached.


HTH

Robert

 

[Fred Ma]

However, I have just realized that we haven't discussed what happens
if you disallow the prompt. Try that please and report what happens.

Well....here it is, after much trial and error.

Launching new window with about:blank, then entering in library site
--------------------------------------------------------------------
- No problem if another window is already opened on the library site
- Boxes otherwise, until 3-4 tries have been made in going to
about:blank and back to library site
- Fine thereafter

Splitting off a new window with Ctrl-N
--------------------------------------
- Always works fine

Pressing Reload
---------------
- Always shows boxes
- Regardless of whether I work offline or not
- Regardless of whether another window is opened to the same page

From a "boxy" rendering, going to about:blank and back to library site
----------------------------------------------------------------------
- Always fine
- Regardless of whether I'm offline or online, and regardless of
whether I allow/deny reconnection (in the case of offline)
- Regardless of whether I press "Back" or paste the address in
- But pressing reload afterward still generates the boxy rendering

None of this is affected by the screen resolution, or whether I'm
logging in through remote desktop vs. being right at the console.

I also tried netscape communicator 4.61, and it didn't have the same
problem with logos showing as boxes.

If you have any way of tracing the requests which are being sent
as a result of letting IE connect instead I think it could be interesting.
If your Win2K is a server product you may have netmon which
could do it for you; otherwise the only (freeware) tool I am aware of
is Ethereal.

A poor alternative which might still show you something (e.g. unexpected
site name) would be

netstat -a -p tcp 3

(The 3 establishes a three second loop rate. Press Ctrl-c to end it.)

I used the Kerio personal firewall to monitor the remote connections.
It seems to display similar information, and it showed now suspicious
connections.

Sorry for not being clear in my instructions. I was expecting you
to replace the Ctrl-N with these two new steps and of course be
offline when you are doing them. The idea is that if you get a prompt
to connect by opening a window with About:Blank we will have exposed
more clearly that something is intercepting the open window function.
We would not expect you to get a prompt by actually going to the Library
page because you are browsing offline and the page is fully cached.

It looks like that's not the case, since opening about:blank doesn't
ask for a reconnection. It seems only reload asks for a
reconnection.

Regarding tracing the requests, I think I have to let this one go.
I've got a deadline that's coming at me like a speeding train. I
appreciate the time you've put into providing advice on tracking this
down. Thanks.

Fred

P.S. It's really odd, but the microsoft server isn't showing any of
the most recent posts. Only google groups is.

 

[Robert Aldwinckle]

Well....here it is, after much trial and error.

Launching new window with about:blank, then entering in library site
--------------------------------------------------------------------
- No problem if another window is already opened on the library site
- Boxes otherwise, until 3-4 tries have been made in going to
about:blank and back to library site
- Fine thereafter

Bizarre! You'd almost wonder if your video card was caching
it and bit by bit improving the cached image. You could test
that idea by switching to a different task (say Task Manager's
Performance tab fullscreen) between tries and see if that
decreased the likelihood of success with *only* "3-4 tries".


Other tests less remarkable depending on the meaning
of "reload":

....

It seems only reload asks for a reconnection.

Reload == Refresh? That makes sense.
Reload == Enter URL while online and not cache checking Never? Ditto.
Reload == Enter URL while offline when the page is cached? Makes no sense.
That's why I was suggesting you trace that case (whenever you have the time and inclination.)
But it is equally important to check that that the contents remain cached.
If that assumption is contradicted it is unnecessary to hypothesise external factors
to cause a connection--one missing file would be enough.

BTW for all your testing it's still not clear what happens if you disallow the prompt.

P.S. It's really odd, but the microsoft server isn't showing any of
the most recent posts. Only google groups is.

Then you should stop using your local news server and connect
directly to this one. Here is a link which OE users can use to create
a new news "account." The syntax is not RFC approved so your
news reader may not accept it. If not just use the server name
however you would to create a new account. The server is public
and does not expect a userid.

< news://msnews.microsoft.com/ >


HTH

Robert
---

 

[Fred Ma]

Bizarre! You'd almost wonder if your video card was caching
it and bit by bit improving the cached image.

That might the case except that in those first 3 or 4 tries, the
cached image doesn't get progressively better. In fact, they stay the
same. Waitaminute....this is different from what I get from
repeatedly pressing _refresh_, in which case different logos become
boxes each time.

You could test that idea by switching to a different task (say Task
Manager's Performance tab fullscreen) between tries and see if that
decreased the likelihood of success with *only* "3-4 tries".

I did this. And so long as I start up the Performance tab before the
4th round trip (to about:blank and back), the boxes never go away, and
never change. I must have cached the boxes, or rather the page with
missing logos.

Other tests less remarkable depending on the meaning
of "reload":

...

Reload == Refresh? That makes sense.

Yes, this is what I mean. Sorry, but I'm using throwback terminology
from netscape.

Reload == Enter URL while online and not cache checking Never? Ditto.
Reload == Enter URL while offline when the page is cached? Makes no sense.
That's why I was suggesting you trace that case (whenever you have the time and inclination.)
But it is equally important to check that that the contents remain cached.
If that assumption is contradicted it is unnecessary to hypothesise external factors
to cause a connection--one missing file would be enough.

BTW for all your testing it's still not clear what happens if you disallow the prompt.

I think I could have been clearer about this. It's under "whether I
allow/deny reconnection...":

From a "boxy" rendering, going to about:blank and back to library site
----------------------------------------------------------------------
- Always fine
- Regardless of whether I'm offline or online, and regardless of
whether I allow/deny reconnection (in the case of offline)
- Regardless of whether I press "Back" or paste the address in
- But pressing reload afterward still generates the boxy rendering

Then you should stop using your local news server and connect
directly to this one. Here is a link which OE users can use to create
a new news "account." The syntax is not RFC approved so your
news reader may not accept it. If not just use the server name
however you would to create a new account. The server is public
and does not expect a userid.

< news://msnews.microsoft.com/ >

This is what I use....those missing posts finally showed up, long
after they did on google.

Thanks again for your suggestions. I think I need to put this on hold
for the time being. I'll keep your final suggestion about tracing in
mind, but I have a feeling I will come up for air after graduating.

Fred