I've Had Enough

[Chris A. R.]

It's hard to find anyone that knows how to write Threading code without
wrapping themselves in knots. Given that, I find the C/C++ programmers are
much more likely to have a clue on how to write working code in a Threaded
environment. I also find that most VB programmers don't understand the
windows messaging architecture, whereas most C/C++ programmers do
understand.

Of course, there are dud C/C++ programmers, but understanding the foundation
of the windows architecture is important for complex programs. So, as lead
engineer and architect at the company I work for, pointy haired boss and
all, I prefer people with C/C++ experience.

Chris A.R.

"microsoft.public.dotnet.languages.csharp"

terrible. generally speaking, I'd have more faith in Java & C

developers than VB and ASP people. having experienced frustration of
working with these VB and ASP people.

 

[Jon Skeet [C# MVP]]

It's hard to find anyone that knows how to write Threading code without
wrapping themselves in knots.
True.

Given that, I find the C/C++ programmers are
much more likely to have a clue on how to write working code in a Threaded
environment.

I'm not sure I'd go along with that - they may know how to write
working code in C/C++ in a threaded environment, but that doesn't mean
they'll know the .NET threading model. That's why whenever the
singleton pattern is discussed, there's always someone throwing the
Double Checked Locking Algorithm into the mix, despite it
a) not working as usually presented
b) almost always being a worse approach than various others



I'd like to think I understand threading "better than most" but it
still scares the hell out of me really...

 

[Frans Bouma [C# MVP]]

It's hard to find anyone that knows how to write Threading code without
wrapping themselves in knots. Given that, I find the C/C++ programmers
are much more likely to have a clue on how to write working code in a
Threaded environment. I also find that most VB programmers don't
understand the windows messaging architecture, whereas most C/C++
programmers do understand.

Of course, there are dud C/C++ programmers, but understanding the
foundation of the windows architecture is important for complex
programs. So, as lead engineer and architect at the company I work for,
pointy haired boss and all, I prefer people with C/C++ experience.

Odd. I'd prefer people with .NET experience. You see, It's better
to know how .NET works, than to know how win32 works, as .NET does a lot
for you and sometimes differently than in win32 (i.e.: there is no
messageing architecture to post messages between threads, threads don't
have their own messagepump etc.

FB

 

[Julie]

Try closing the IDE and deleting the .suo file. This sounds like a known bug
that has been cropping up for quite some time(I seem to recall filing a bug
report myself), there is hope it will be fixed in whidbey, but I don't know
if there was any official word on that and considering how hard it is to
reproduce I couldn't test. Though I havn't run into it in about a year it
does happen and it will drive you nuts. It seems to crop up most commonly
with large C# or C++ projects and *may* be related to the size of an output
assembly. I imagine someone else here knows waht I'm talking about and
remembers more details that I do.

If this is a known problem, where is the patch? Not coming, have to wait until
whidbey, standard line from Microsoft.

Let's not forget that this is the 13th rev (or so) of the MS compiler suite.
Bugs like this are not to be expected in a product like this, especially at the
price that it is.

Not to sound harsh, but you pretty much sound like a know-it-all in all of
your posts. Considering the content of said posts I'd say you have a long
way to go before that attitude is anywhere near correct.

I'm hardly a know-it-all, but thanks for the comments. I've been programming
Windows since 3.0 -- I've seen how MS operates, and it is frustrating to try
and eek out a living w/ such shoddy tools and lackluster performance. I'm a
contract programmer, and I don't have the time each day to constantly fiddle w/
the fragility of the system, it costs me *big time*. 10+ years ago, Borland
gave MS some serious compiler competition (and had a far superior product), but
alas, those days are gone, so back to non-innovative buggy MS business as
usual.

 

[Andreas Håkansson]

If this is a known problem, where is the patch? Not coming, have to wait until
whidbey, standard line from Microsoft.

Let's not forget that this is the 13th rev (or so) of the MS compiler suite.
Bugs like this are not to be expected in a product like this, especially at the
price that it is.


I'm hardly a know-it-all, but thanks for the comments. I've been programming
Windows since 3.0 -- I've seen how MS operates, and it is frustrating to try
and eek out a living w/ such shoddy tools and lackluster performance. I'm a
contract programmer, and I don't have the time each day to constantly fiddle w/
the fragility of the system, it costs me *big time*. 10+ years ago, Borland
gave MS some serious compiler competition (and had a far superior product), but
alas, those days are gone, so back to non-innovative buggy MS business as
usual.

So as a contract programmer you kind of have the option to decide which work
you take. If this is so bad, and to be expected of Microsoft then why not
change
your mo and move to java, linux, borland stuff etc? Or are you neglecting to
say
that even though you feel like this for the MS tools, they are still better
than the
others? Or what gives? Its like saying "I really want to loose weight,
honest *eats
a pound of sugar*" =)

//Andreas

 

[Daniel O'Connell [C# MVP]]

If this is a known problem, where is the patch? Not coming, have to wait
until
whidbey, standard line from Microsoft.

Let's not forget that this is the 13th rev (or so) of the MS compiler
suite.
Bugs like this are not to be expected in a product like this, especially
at the
price that it is.

As I said, its a rather complex one. I've yet to meet anyone who can
reproduce it at will. Sorry but a bug I've heard maybe 6 complaints about in
the last 2 years that would require a considerable amount of time to fix
isn't something that warrents being rushed to in my opinion. Especially when
virtually everyone who has had it managed to get around it by modifying
their project layout slightly. Its annoying but its not a show stopper. At
worst, get nant and build with that.
The new project system in whidbey will hopefully squash it, but I can't tell
you for sure. The bug is strange and transient, and its rather hard to
reproduce even when I have a project that exhibits in in some situations.

I'm hardly a know-it-all, but thanks for the comments. I've been
programming
Windows since 3.0 -- I've seen how MS operates, and it is frustrating to
try
and eek out a living w/ such shoddy tools and lackluster performance. I'm
a
contract programmer, and I don't have the time each day to constantly
fiddle w/
the fragility of the system, it costs me *big time*. 10+ years ago,
Borland
gave MS some serious compiler competition (and had a far superior
product), but
alas, those days are gone, so back to non-innovative buggy MS business as
usual.

Frankly, I would suggest either finding another profession or another system
to work in\build with. I hear Delphi is nice, sharp develop is decent, and
borland C# builder isn't bad either.
Personally I rarely have problems to the point where I need to come on
newsgroups and be snotty about it. If you want help with something ask for
help, if you want to provide answers, provide correct, precise, and
non-predjudiced answers, but if you want to bitch about things(especially
everything except the C# langauge) there are plenty of newsgroups to suit
your needs, its really rather off focus here. I don't have much sympathy for
people who come here to whine, bitch, pass incorrect information, and ask
for help simultaneously.
I rather resent having to waste time reading these posts. This goes to you,
C# Learner, and anyone else here who is even peripherally focused on
complaining. I bothered to respond to you only because I could provide a
little insight into your problem, but you have to take my annoyance and
disdain along with it. I won't let petty whining stop me from providing any
answers I might be able to give, but I won't always do it silently.

 

[bob holder]

not outside projects solve known a wait all I'm

So as a contract programmer you kind of have the option to decide which work
you take. If this is so bad, and to be expected of Microsoft then why not
change
your mo and move to java, linux, borland stuff etc? Or are you neglecting to
say
that even though you feel like this for the MS tools, they are still better
than the
others? Or what gives? Its like saying "I really want to loose weight,
honest *eats
a pound of sugar*" =)

//Andreas

Probably because as a contractor they are at the mercy of the hosting
company. It is rare to come in and completely change a company's
environment, even if there are better choices as you mention. Usual mantra
as a contractor is "anything, anywhere, anytime" (that's what I used when I
did body-shop work). Best bet is to keep whatever they have and plug them
for lot's of overtime if it's buggy.

bob

 

[C# Learner]

Daniel O'Connell [C# MVP] wrote:

<snip>

If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen.

 

[C# Learner]

Not to sound harsh, but you pretty much sound like a know-it-all in all of
your posts. Considering the content of said posts I'd say you have a long
way to go before that attitude is anywhere near correct.

To be honest, I think that you make yourself out to be a _god_ in /your/
posts.

I remember the first time I ever replied to you in a thread. I think
the thread was on the subject of coding with Notepad when not using an
IDE. I posted a reply to you giving a joke about Notepad.

From your reply to my post, I got the impression that you were
thinking, "Who the hell are you to reply to me?!"

I get a similar impression to many of your posts.

 

[Jon Skeet [C# MVP]]

To be honest, I think that you make yourself out to be a _god_ in /your/
posts.

I remember the first time I ever replied to you in a thread. I think
the thread was on the subject of coding with Notepad when not using an
IDE. I posted a reply to you giving a joke about Notepad.

The only thread I can see on groups.google.com where you posted and
there was anything about Notepad, Daniel didn't post at all. Were you
thinking of William Stacey, perhaps?

 

[Daniel O'Connell [C# MVP]]

To be honest, I think that you make yourself out to be a _god_ in /your/
posts.

Now now, I'm a jerk, not a god, .

I remember the first time I ever replied to you in a thread. I think the
thread was on the subject of coding with Notepad when not using an IDE. I
posted a reply to you giving a joke about Notepad.

From your reply to my post, I got the impression that you were thinking,
"Who the hell are you to reply to me?!"

I get a similar impression to many of your posts.

Your first reply to me, as best I can tell, was on the subject of naming
conventions. I argued that forcing all developers to use one single
convention was impossible while you felt it should be done. I don't see
where I came off as egotistical there however. Indeed I can only find 3
references to notepad in any of my posts, you were involved with none.

Now, maybe I am arrogant. It really doesn't matter to me much. I'm here to
help when I can, learn when I can't, and participate in the rare interesting
discussion where there isn't an answer. I don't think I'm particularly
egotistical, but if you feel my posts are, then you are free to ignore them.

Also, in general I prefer responses to silence. An extra post doesn't take
up much time to read, as long as its somewhat on subject. Generally the only
time I'll lambaste a reply is when its purpose is entirely to 1) enrage, 2)
bitch, or 3) tell me I'm wrong because the person doesn't want my answer to
be right. (I will often reply sharply to someone who is intentionally
spreading mis-information, either by willful ignorance or by malicious
intent, but that isn't strictly applied to replies to my posts).

 

[C# Learner]

The only thread I can see on groups.google.com where you posted and
there was anything about Notepad, Daniel didn't post at all. Were you
thinking of William Stacey, perhaps?

You're right -- I made a mistake here, confusing Daniel with William.

My stated general feeling about Daniel's posts still remains, though.

 

[Alvin Bruney [MVP]]

I think you will find in this newsgroup, people who are very passionate
about the technology they work in and down right top-notch. It really is a
no bullshit approach. If you are wrong, expect to get chewed thoroughly.
There seldom will be a nice way to spin it. It may not be politically
correct but I believe if you leave your feelings at the door, you can
definitely learn in here.

At least you will learn to post technically accurate stuff or research
issues thoroughly before you post. I am very guilty of jumping technically
inaccurate posters (something i learned in here btw). And I've been jumped
more times than i care to remember. It's rarely personal. It's tough love.
You grow to be technically correct as a result. And that makes you a better
professional.

 

[Chris A. R.]

Frans & Jon,

Perhaps I should have clarified... of course I prefer people with .Net
experience. I was referring to a previous posting talking about VB versus
C/C++ programmers (I left out Java programmers, since they may have a clue
about OOP, but usually not about the Windows architecture).

So, the comparison I was making was in pre-.Net, windows directed languages
only. While there is no message pump for threads, it is important to
understand how threading works on the GUI components and how Invoke,
BeginInvoke, and EndInvoke actually do work with the GUI's message
architecture in these situations.

Continuing on that concept, there are often times when knowing the
underlying architecture can make a programmers ability to program .Net
programs a lot better.

Chris A.R.

 

[C# Learner]

Now now, I'm a jerk, not a god, .


Your first reply to me, as best I can tell, was on the subject of naming
conventions. I argued that forcing all developers to use one single
convention was impossible while you felt it should be done. I don't see
where I came off as egotistical there however. Indeed I can only find 3
references to notepad in any of my posts, you were involved with none.

I was wrong, and confused you with someone else; sorry.

I think you're right that the first thread where we communicated was the
thread on naming conventions. In it, you were not unfriendly at all.

Now, maybe I am arrogant. It really doesn't matter to me much. I'm here to
help when I can, learn when I can't, and participate in the rare interesting
discussion where there isn't an answer. I don't think I'm particularly
egotistical, but if you feel my posts are, then you are free to ignore them.

Also, in general I prefer responses to silence. An extra post doesn't take
up much time to read, as long as its somewhat on subject. Generally the only
time I'll lambaste a reply is when its purpose is entirely to 1) enrage, 2)
bitch, or 3) tell me I'm wrong because the person doesn't want my answer to
be right. (I will often reply sharply to someone who is intentionally
spreading mis-information, either by willful ignorance or by malicious
intent, but that isn't strictly applied to replies to my posts).

I am pleasantly surprised that your reply (quoted here) isn't a flame.

 

[Daniel O'Connell [C# MVP]]

Daniel O'Connell [C# MVP] wrote:

Not to sound harsh, but you pretty much sound like a know-it-all in all
of your posts. Considering the content of said posts I'd say you have a
long way to go before that attitude is anywhere near correct.

To be honest, I think that you make yourself out to be a _god_ in /your/
posts.

Now now, I'm a jerk, not a god, .

I remember the first time I ever replied to you in a thread. I think the
thread was on the subject of coding with Notepad when not using an IDE.
I posted a reply to you giving a joke about Notepad.

From your reply to my post, I got the impression that you were thinking,
"Who the hell are you to reply to me?!"

I get a similar impression to many of your posts.

Your first reply to me, as best I can tell, was on the subject of naming
conventions. I argued that forcing all developers to use one single
convention was impossible while you felt it should be done. I don't see
where I came off as egotistical there however. Indeed I can only find 3
references to notepad in any of my posts, you were involved with none.

I was wrong, and confused you with someone else; sorry.

I think you're right that the first thread where we communicated was the
thread on naming conventions. In it, you were not unfriendly at all.

Now, maybe I am arrogant. It really doesn't matter to me much. I'm here
to help when I can, learn when I can't, and participate in the rare
interesting discussion where there isn't an answer. I don't think I'm
particularly egotistical, but if you feel my posts are, then you are free
to ignore them.

Also, in general I prefer responses to silence. An extra post doesn't
take up much time to read, as long as its somewhat on subject. Generally
the only time I'll lambaste a reply is when its purpose is entirely to 1)
enrage, 2) bitch, or 3) tell me I'm wrong because the person doesn't want
my answer to be right. (I will often reply sharply to someone who is
intentionally spreading mis-information, either by willful ignorance or
by malicious intent, but that isn't strictly applied to replies to my
posts).

I am pleasantly surprised that your reply (quoted here) isn't a flame.

There is no reason to flame you. However I don't think you have much
standing to be rude yourself.

 

[C# Learner]

Daniel O'Connell [C# MVP] wrote:
[...]

There is no reason to flame you. However I don't think you have much
standing to be rude yourself.

I wasn't trying to be rude; I was just letting you know that I was
pleasantly surprised in not getting flamed.

 

[Roy Fine]

threads don't
have their own messagepump etc.

actually, .Net threads don't have access to the message queue - i.e. no
inherent GetMessage/DispatchMessage support from which to build a pump.

roy fine

 

[C# Learner]

Daniel O'Connell [C# MVP] wrote:
[...]

There is no reason to flame you. However I don't think you have much
standing to be rude yourself.

I wasn't trying to be rude; I was just letting you know that I was
pleasantly surprised in not getting flamed.

Or did you mean my other two posts about god and the kitchen? Just to
make sure...

 

[Dave]

Odd. I'd prefer people with .NET experience. You see, It's better
to know how .NET works, than to know how win32 works, as .NET does a lot
for you and sometimes differently than in win32 (i.e.: there is no
messageing architecture to post messages between threads, threads don't
have their own messagepump etc.

I have to disagree. I find it important to understand not only the tool that
is in your hand, but where it came from and the design choices that were
made in building it (i.e. the limitations and why they exist).

It may be that you can do 95% or more of your work without needing to know
what lies below the surface, but the small percentage that is left can be
the difference between relying on voodoo programming and being able to
design a good solution or fix a difficult problem. You can be a good .net
programmer without a win32 background, but it's a lot tougher then for
someone with a good win32 background.

Programmers certainly need experience in .net, but if that's all they have
there will be some problems that are just plain mysterious (and perhaps
unsolvable) to them. Part of that is because the .net platform is still
immature and you can't go very far before it p/invokes back to a win32 API
or COM object. I think you'll find that a number of the
limitations/restrictions of the .net platform and the BCL are directly
derived (even when it's not obvious) from the platform.

As the platform matures more services will be ported to .NET so this will be
less of a problem, but that could be a long ways in the future.

Dave