N
Nick Malik [Microsoft]
friggin troll
J
Jim Hubbard
Oh, no! Some child too afraid to post his real name is not happy with my
post.
Whatever shall I do?
post.
Whatever shall I do?
N
nobody
Hi, Jim and Ted:
I like your guys' comments about dotNet. I compared C++ with dotNet, and
can't clearly see any chance to develop high qualified desktop and middle
tier applications with dotNet. Overall, dotNet is indeed simple and fast to
develop, but its benefit is not really obvious to me. It is good to use
dotnet for non-professional or in-house applications development like old
VB6. However, in many cases, dotNet is not so good as VB6 in simplicity and
development speed for a small and trival project.
If you use dotNet to develop a professional application for sale on
market, you may feel that someone will follow your bussiness ideas and use
C++/WTL and native development to re-engineer it with much cheaper price,
and eventually beat you and your company. I have such a worry, don't you?
To write a professional software, we need collecting bussiness
requirements for its design, coding, extensively test and documentation.
According to my experience, coding may just cost us one third time and
effort roughly. You get 50% time and effort cut in coding with dotNet, but
software quality decrease considrerably and we lost peace in mind.
I firmly believe dotNet is created for non IT professionals, in-house
and web developments, and not for IT professionals, desktop, middle tiers
and low level development.
I like your guys' comments about dotNet. I compared C++ with dotNet, and
can't clearly see any chance to develop high qualified desktop and middle
tier applications with dotNet. Overall, dotNet is indeed simple and fast to
develop, but its benefit is not really obvious to me. It is good to use
dotnet for non-professional or in-house applications development like old
VB6. However, in many cases, dotNet is not so good as VB6 in simplicity and
development speed for a small and trival project.
If you use dotNet to develop a professional application for sale on
market, you may feel that someone will follow your bussiness ideas and use
C++/WTL and native development to re-engineer it with much cheaper price,
and eventually beat you and your company. I have such a worry, don't you?
To write a professional software, we need collecting bussiness
requirements for its design, coding, extensively test and documentation.
According to my experience, coding may just cost us one third time and
effort roughly. You get 50% time and effort cut in coding with dotNet, but
software quality decrease considrerably and we lost peace in mind.
I firmly believe dotNet is created for non IT professionals, in-house
and web developments, and not for IT professionals, desktop, middle tiers
and low level development.
J
Jim Hubbard
nobody said:
IMHO, there are 3 key reasons that Microsoft developed .Net.
#3) Java. They freaked out far too soon in the Sun/Microsoft software
war and gave too much significance to the developers adopting Java. They
should've stayed the course with code optimized for Windows. Cross-platform
has never taken off....and it never will. Code optimized for the platform
will always run faster, do more and be in more demand than any virtual
machine code anyone can write.
#2) Make no mistake about it, Microsoft is run by shareholders. They are
what drives Microsoft decisions.....not developers. That "DEVELOPERS!
DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS!" mantra of Steve Ballmer is bullshit. He's just a
glorified a salesman. And, like any good salesman, he'll tell you what you
want to hear.
But, the second reason for developing .Net is to cut costs within
Microsoft. It is simply cheaper to support a single core (CLR) with a bunch
of GUIs (VB.Net, C++.Net, C#.Net, ad nauseam) than it is to write and
support separate and distinct languages like Visual C++, Visual Basic,
Visual Interdev and Microsoft's JVM. So what if the people didn't ask for
it? So what if they don't like it? What are they gonna do....go to another
OS?
#1) The number one reason Microsoft created .Net is to further their
internal goals of writing software-as-a-service. Microsoft has publicly
stated that their goal is to have all Microsoft products be sold as
services. No longer will you own Microsoft software, you will rent it from
them. This is another decision pushed by the shareholders.
Microsoft had $50 BILLION in CASH reserves last time I looked.
Microsoft isn't hurting for money. But, it does lose billions more in sales
to piracy and theft of its software. It hasn't occurred to the brilliant
minds at Microsoft that $500 for a $.10 cd of Microsoft Office Professional
is just too damned much, and people will take what they need when they can't
afford what they need.
Nonetheless, the greedy bastards at Microsoft continue to require
ridiculous sales prices for software that we only buy because we have to.
If they really wanted to stave off Linux, they could sell the Office
Standard for $50 a copy (they already sell Office Student/Teacher for $149
for 3 licenses). It's not like they need the money. It's all about
appeasing the shareholders.
To that end, Microsoft knows that they only way to stop piracy is to
make software an online service. That's the biggest reason for .Net. It's
also why they don't really give a damn about the security holes of
disassembling .Net code...because their code will reside on servers. .Net
wasn't written for writing applications that you sell and ship to your
customers. It is a language specifically for the software-as-a-service
model.
The fact that they pushed it as anything else should be illegal. What
Microsoft has actually done is recruited the largest beta test group in
history for software (.Net) that they will use to bleed those very people
for more and more revenues.
In essence, Microsoft has duped .Net developers into weaving their own
nooses. (Brilliant really.....)
Well, I've said it before, and I stand by it. The adoption of .Net and
abandonment of classic Visual Basic will eventually go down as two of the
biggest blunders in technological history.
Jim Hubbard
T
Ted Nicols
Cor Ligthert said:
I was kidding Cor, of course it is not always necessary to drive as fast as
you can. However a really fast car allows to drive fast when is necessary.
Ted
T
Ted Nicols
Ross Presser said:
Ross, if you read my previous posts you'll know that I don't dislike .NET or
C#, which is an excellent OO language. It is .NET performance on
time-critical applications that bothers me.
BTW I'd be quite happy with .NET if I was a VB6 developer
Ted
T
Ted Nicols
Your nightmare said:
Anti-Microsoft fools ? My dear anonymous "friend", I was seventeen years old
when first got my first MS C v1.0 compiler in a 360K disk.
All these years, I'm using MS tools to make money and develop applications
for MS operating systems.
In any case that doesn't mean that I have to be happy with everything
Microsoft builds. Do you really believe that even Microsoft people don't
know that .NET performance is a bit slow when compared with Win32 native
compiled code?
Maybe you're right. Sometimes I prefer been "stupid" than following
business. You know I'm just a tech guy, not marketing officer.
Ted
T
Ted Nicols
Your nightmare said:
Anti-Microsoft fools ? My dear anonymous "friend", I was seventeen years old
when first got my first MS C v1.0 compiler in a 360K disk.
All these years, I'm using MS tools to make money and develop applications
for MS operating systems.
In any case that doesn't mean that I have to be happy with everything
Microsoft builds. Do you really believe that even Microsoft people don't
know that .NET performance is a bit slow when compared with Win32 native
compiled code?
Maybe you're right. Sometimes I prefer been "stupid" than following
business. You know I'm just a tech guy, not marketing officer.
Ted
G
Guest
Hello,
I am new to the C++ world, and I got my start at what many, and i am sure
you, do not consider real programming with the html world. I have been
plugging around for the last 3-4 years with several of the vb, c#, java,
coldfusion, etc. Unfortunately, I think you are right on many points, and it
is only sad for it took me this long to realize.
I have many complaints with vm not handling the load I need, and I know a
lot of it is for I have not learned how to correctly optimize a machine.
Anyways, that will come with time, but I am not sure where to begin with the
c++ world. I know there are quick starts, demo's, etc. However, for a
language with a much longer history has too have some
lessons/walkthroughs/demos/etc that someone with experience feels are must
do's. Was curios of a couple. I am much more interested in apps that play
on different os' (interoperibility), and I have more use for ones that use
the web. Would love any ideas on directions.
thanks
ian
I am new to the C++ world, and I got my start at what many, and i am sure
you, do not consider real programming with the html world. I have been
plugging around for the last 3-4 years with several of the vb, c#, java,
coldfusion, etc. Unfortunately, I think you are right on many points, and it
is only sad for it took me this long to realize.
I have many complaints with vm not handling the load I need, and I know a
lot of it is for I have not learned how to correctly optimize a machine.
Anyways, that will come with time, but I am not sure where to begin with the
c++ world. I know there are quick starts, demo's, etc. However, for a
language with a much longer history has too have some
lessons/walkthroughs/demos/etc that someone with experience feels are must
do's. Was curios of a couple. I am much more interested in apps that play
on different os' (interoperibility), and I have more use for ones that use
the web. Would love any ideas on directions.
thanks
ian