Is linq the final straw for VB?

M

Michael C

Martin H. said:
Besides: Why should I use a keymap which does not have the layout I'm used
to and does not show Umlauts äöüß? The English keymap is not sufficient if
you want to write German.

Ok, fair enough but you didn't answer my other question. Isn't it 2
keypresses anyway, very similar to Shift + [.
Your VB example was also not on one line...
If x < 0 Then x= 1

I only gave a VB example. I wasn't comparing VB to C# with this example, I
was just saying I prefer to use 1 line for something as simple as this,
regardless of the language.

Michael
 
A

Alex Clark

Your analogy is still flawed. A better analogy is to say I prefer using an
electric saw to build a house instead of a handsaw because using an
electic saw is faster. That is perfectly valid and I still end up with a
house in the end, just faster and possibly a better quality house (due to
the fact that my saw has better compiler checks and is a stricter saw).

Assuming your saw in this case is C#, perhaps you could enlighten us as to
how it's:

a) Faster
b) Likely to produce a better quality end result, seeing as how both
languages boil down to virtually identical IL
c) Has better compiler checks and is stricter

There is no performance difference between the two languages, and this point
has been re-hashed here so many times that it's starting to get very
tiresome. The only advantage C# has in performance terms is when you start
to use unmanaged code, which VB can do through the use of the Marshal class
anyway with a small performance penalty. The only people I've heard enquire
about switching to C# because it "produces faster code" were total .NET
newbies who didn't know their strongly typed arses from their elbows.

If you really want the analogy to work, then I believe this is the most
accurate:

We both build wood houses. You prefer your Black & Decker electric saw, I
prefer my DeWalt electric saw. You can take the safety guard off your saw
whereas I cannot on mine - big wow, I've only ever needed to do that once or
maybe twice in all the houses I've built. The grip on my saw is better, the
battery display on your saw is nicer, but in the end they both produce an
identical wooden house and it takes each of us the same time to reach that
result because we're both using the saws we feel most comfortable and
familiar with.

The real difference between the two saws? I don't mind using the Black &
Decker every once in a while, whereas you whinge about the DeWalt even when
you *don't* use it. This is of course not a slam on the B&D saw - just a
slam on some of the people that use it.
 
M

Michael C

Alex Clark said:
Assuming your saw in this case is C#, perhaps you could enlighten us as to
how it's:

a) Faster

Faster to develop because there is less typing and the intellisense is of
better quality.
b) Likely to produce a better quality end result, seeing as how both
languages boil down to virtually identical IL

Stricter compiler checkes.
c) Has better compiler checks and is stricter

This has been discussed here before but I can't remember all the details. C#
just has a larger number of compiler checks that VB lets slip through to the
keeper.
There is no performance difference between the two languages, and this
point has been re-hashed here so many times that it's starting to get very
tiresome.

I never said there was.
If you really want the analogy to work, then I believe this is the most
accurate:

We both build wood houses. You prefer your Black & Decker electric saw, I
prefer my DeWalt electric saw. You can take the safety guard off your saw
whereas I cannot on mine - big wow, I've only ever needed to do that once
or maybe twice in all the houses I've built. The grip on my saw is
better, the battery display on your saw is nicer, but in the end they both
produce an identical wooden house and it takes each of us the same time to
reach that result because we're both using the saws we feel most
comfortable and familiar with.

The real difference between the two saws? I don't mind using the Black &
Decker every once in a while, whereas you whinge about the DeWalt even
when you *don't* use it. This is of course not a slam on the B&D saw -
just a slam on some of the people that use it.

Another flawed analogy. Unfortunately I've used the DeWalt saw plenty (over
12 months full time) and even used the previous model dewalt for close to 10
years. Through bitter experience I know the B&D saw to be better.

Michael
 
M

Martin H.

Hello Michael,

YOU WIN! You are right.
On my next meeting with Steve Ballmer I will give him your comments. I
bet that he will ensure that with VB.NET is to be removed from the next
version of VS.NET.

Best wishes,

Martin
 
C

Cor Ligthert[MVP]

Michael,

DeWalt is an extra brand from Black and Decker, in the same way probably as
Visual C# is a brand from Microsoft.

It gives their Visual product a little bit the image from C++.

The number 1 tool for production software development from Microsoft is
however Visual Basic.

Now I know why Tom liked the anology so much

Beside the number 1 tool are the statements above based on nothing (Null in
C), just as reply in this ridiculous trolling thread.

Cor
 
T

Tom Shelton

Faster to develop because there is less typing and the intellisense is of
better quality.

Hmmm... I'm not sure I agree. Yes, there is no doubt that the intellisense is
better in C#. But, I'm not sure that it is enough of a difference to impede
the progress of someone who uses the vb ide on a regulare basis. I think you
and I tend to notice the poor quality of the vb editor because we happen to
use the C# ide day in and day out, only using the VB.NET editor for the
occasional need...

In other words, I think it's more about what your used to :)
Stricter compiler checkes.

Maybe... Maybe not. I'm not so sure about that - when Option Strict On.
 
M

Michael C

Alex Clark said:
We both build wood houses. You prefer your Black & Decker electric saw, I
prefer my DeWalt electric saw. You can take the safety guard off your saw
whereas I cannot on mine - big wow, I've only ever needed to do that once
or maybe twice in all the houses I've built. The grip on my saw is
better, the battery display on your saw is nicer, but in the end they both
produce an identical wooden house and it takes each of us the same time to
reach that result because we're both using the saws we feel most
comfortable and familiar with.

The real difference between the two saws? I don't mind using the Black &
Decker every once in a while, whereas you whinge about the DeWalt even
when you *don't* use it. This is of course not a slam on the B&D saw -
just a slam on some of the people that use it.

Try this:
DeWalt make 2 saws (remember MS make both these tools). Both saws are equal
priced and similar but have differences. One saw has fiddly controls and the
stuff you use on it day in and day out is slower and more cumbersome to use.
The other saw the controls are much better layed out and make a lot more
sense. One saw is aimed at the tradesman while the other is aimed at the
home handyman. The one aimed at the handyman was designed to be easier to
use but just ended up being more confusing to use. Despite what other
tradies have said some still insist on using the home handyman saw.

Michael
 
M

Michael C

Tom Shelton said:
Hmmm... I'm not sure I agree. Yes, there is no doubt that the
intellisense is
better in C#. But, I'm not sure that it is enough of a difference to
impede
the progress of someone who uses the vb ide on a regulare basis. I think
you
and I tend to notice the poor quality of the vb editor because we happen
to
use the C# ide day in and day out, only using the VB.NET editor for the
occasional need...

In other words, I think it's more about what your used to :)

Well I guess most of the VBers just get used to the problems with VB but
that doesn't mean those problems don't exist. I found it quite frustrating
to use and found that it slowed my progress every minute of every day. In
some cases on the celery 2.6 it couldn't even keep up with my typing,
sometimes making me wait for 10 or 20 seconds at a time.
Maybe... Maybe not. I'm not so sure about that - when Option Strict On.

Even with option strict on VB isn't as strict. I can't remember the exact
checks, I'd have to fire VB up to find out.

Michael
 
M

Michael C

Martin H. said:
Hello Michael,

YOU WIN! You are right.
On my next meeting with Steve Ballmer I will give him your comments. I bet
that he will ensure that with VB.NET is to be removed from the next
version of VS.NET.

Thank you! Finally some sense ;-)

Michael
 
M

Michael C

Cor Ligthert said:
Michael,

DeWalt is an extra brand from Black and Decker, in the same way probably
as Visual C# is a brand from Microsoft.

Not really. C# is a product and vb.net is a product both from MS.
It gives their Visual product a little bit the image from C++.

The number 1 tool for production software development from Microsoft is
however Visual Basic.

This is if you include vb6, vba, vb.net and vb whatever. C# is ahead of
vb.net.


Michael
 
H

Herfried K. Wagner [MVP]

Michael C said:
Not really. C# is a product and vb.net is a product both from MS.


This is if you include vb6, vba, vb.net and vb whatever. C# is ahead of
vb.net.

I wonder what's the purpose of raising most of the points mentioned in this
discussion.

There is simply no objective metric to measure the quality of a programming
language because (*) programming languages are designed for different
purposes and audiences, (*) the number of users of a certain programming
language at a certain point of time is no suitable an indicator for the
quality of the programming language, (*) programming languages today must
not be analyzed without taking tool support into account, and (*)
programming languages evolve over time.

There are for sure many more factors which would have to be taken into
account in order to describe the characteristics of a programming language
qualitatively. Nevertheless, I believe that (quantitatively) summing up
apples and bananas is completely useless, as is the whole thread which is
based on the debatable (because of its subjectiveness) metric of counting
characters to find out which of two programming languages is superior.
 
M

Michael C

Herfried K. Wagner said:
I wonder what's the purpose of raising most of the points mentioned in
this discussion.

There is simply no objective metric to measure the quality of a
programming language because (*) programming languages are designed for
different purposes and audiences, (*) the number of users of a certain
programming language at a certain point of time is no suitable an
indicator for the quality of the programming language, (*) programming
languages today must not be analyzed without taking tool support into
account, and (*) programming languages evolve over time.

There are for sure many more factors which would have to be taken into
account in order to describe the characteristics of a programming language
qualitatively. Nevertheless, I believe that (quantitatively) summing up
apples and bananas is completely useless, as is the whole thread which is
based on the debatable (because of its subjectiveness) metric of counting
characters to find out which of two programming languages is superior.

Normally what you say would be very true but never before (that I know of)
has there been a case of 2 languages so similar. We are not comparing 2
different languages, more 2 variants of the one language. It's a high level
language, it's not C++. They are both based on the same framework and
produce pretty much the same results. We have the luxury of picking the same
enviroment but with a different syntax and some minor feature differences.
The C# syntax is a little more streamlined and many of the features are
better. I think a lot of VBers think the difference is bigger than it is.
It's really not a terribly different language.

Michael
 
A

Andrew Morton

Herfried said:
I wonder what's the purpose of raising most of the points mentioned
in this discussion.
There are for sure many more factors which would have to be taken into
account in order to describe the characteristics of a programming
language qualitatively. Nevertheless, I believe that
(quantitatively) summing up apples and bananas is completely useless,
as is the whole thread which is based on the debatable (because of
its subjectiveness) metric of counting characters to find out which
of two programming languages is superior.

Exactly. The correct metric is surely *which* characters are used. I just
happen to hate typing { and }.

Coat? No, not today: the bracing wind has gone away.

Andrew
 
H

Herfried K. Wagner [MVP]

Michael C said:
Normally what you say would be very true but never before (that I know of)
has there been a case of 2 languages so similar. We are not comparing 2
different languages, more 2 variants of the one language. It's a high
level language, it's not C++. They are both based on the same framework
and produce pretty much the same results. We have the luxury of picking
the same enviroment but with a different syntax and some minor feature
differences. The C# syntax is a little more streamlined and many of the
features are better. I think a lot of VBers think the difference is bigger
than it is. It's really not a terribly different language.

Well, personally I am perfectly bi-lingual. Contrary to you I prefer VB.
Nevertheless, I do neither claim that VB is perfect nor that it's "better"
than C#.
 
M

Michael C

Andrew Morton said:
Exactly. The correct metric is surely *which* characters are used. I just
happen to hate typing { and }.

This is a common complaint from VBers and something I used to hate also.
Along with case sensitivity. I can tell you with a great deal of confidence
that these are both a non issue and the need to type { and } is well
compensated for with the many other keystroke savings.
 
M

Michael C

Herfried K. Wagner said:
Well, personally I am perfectly bi-lingual. Contrary to you I prefer VB.
Nevertheless, I do neither claim that VB is perfect nor that it's "better"
than C#.

Well I certainly think C# is the better choice, sorry if you don't like
that. I didn't come to that conclusion lightly I used VB for 10 years and
did quite like it when I was using it. It didn't take long for me to realise
I prefer the C style syntax. I can understand why someone would be against
it but only due to lack of experience with it.

Michael
 
H

Herfried K. Wagner [MVP]

Michael C said:
Well I certainly think C# is the better choice, sorry if you don't like
that. I didn't come to that conclusion lightly I used VB for 10 years and
did quite like it when I was using it. It didn't take long for me to
realise I prefer the C style syntax. I can understand why someone would be
against it but only due to lack of experience with it.

Personally I have used C-style languages (especially "pure" C) and different
dialects of BASIC for many years in parallel.

My conclusion is that the difference in the syntax is negligible compared to
other differences, especially semantical differences or differences in IDE
the support. For example, > 10 years ago I really preferred VB over C (for
user-level development) because it was almost impossible to provoce buffer
overruns and to dereference invalid pointers as it was possible in C without
using certain odd tricks.

As for the comparison between VB and C# I tend to prefer VB because of some
handy features it provides opposed to C#, such as 'My', declarative event
handling, XML literal support directly built into the language.
Nevertheless, I believe that even those features are only a plus for VB if
you really need them. When building a library dealing with XML (Office Open
XML or similar) heavily, XML support of VB is really a huge advantage over
C#. On the other hand, if using Lambdas etc. forms a core part of the code,
C# would have advantages over VB.

What I basically want to say: The number of charactes one has to type to
achieve a certain task is often irrelevant because there are so many other
factors which play a crucial role in determining which programming language
is more suitable for a certain task.
 
C

Cor Ligthert[MVP]

Herfried,

I hear you only telling about writting.

Did you know that some people have to maintain as well programs.

Do you know what nice almost impossable to maintain spaghethi programmers
can make.

You won't me say that VB is better then C#.

However, C# invites in my idea more to make almost impossible maintanable
programs more.

Cor
 
H

Herfried K. Wagner [MVP]

Cor Ligthert said:
Did you know that some people have to maintain as well programs.

Sure, I know...
Do you know what nice almost impossable to maintain spaghethi programmers
can make.

You won't me say that VB is better then C#.

However, C# invites in my idea more to make almost impossible maintanable
programs more.

Could you describe how C# or VB invites programmers to write
hard-to-maintain programs more easily than the other programming langauge?

I have seen horrible code written in both programming languages. In most
cases the problem was sitting in front of the computer (legacy C/C++ or
BASIC/VB developers who tried to imitate the style of programming they have
used for many years). I have seen VB programmers still using 'GoTo', and I
have seen C# programmers using pointers and other odd constructs although it
would have been easily possible to use methods of the .NET Framework or more
secure syntax.
 

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