Intel found to be abusing market power in Japan

C

chrisv

http://www.reed-electronics.com/electronicnews/article/CA509320?nid=2019

<quote>
Specifically, the JFTC found that one manufacturer was forced to agree
to buy 100 percent of its CPUs from Intel; another manufacturer was
forced to curtail its non-Intel purchases to 10 percent or less; Intel
separately conditioned rebates on the exclusive use of Intel CPUs
throughout an entire series of computers sold under a single brand
name in order to exclude AMD CPUs from distribution; and the
mechanisms used to achieve these ends included rebates and marketing
practices that includes the “Intel Inside” program and market
development funds provided through Intel’s corporate parent in the
United States.

The recommendation also notes that Intel imposed these restrictions in
direct response to AMD’s growing market share from 2000 to 2002 and
that as a result of this misconduct, the combined market share of AMD
and a second, much smaller CPU company fell from 24 percent in 2002 to
11 percent in 2003.
</quote>
 
Y

Yousuf Khan

chrisv said:

For some reason, the story started to get a lot of play today, even
though it broke last week, just before the weekend. I posted a link
about it too. There's probably hundreds of links in Google about this
story already.

Some of the articles even quote European regulators saying that they too
have an investigation going on about it. Prior to this, it seems like as
if AMD was whistling into the wind, nobody wanted to hear about it. AMD
would file a complaint and the regulators would find no evidence. It was
an ongoing cycle. I think the difference this time was that Japan
actually raided Intel's offices without warning. Prevented Intel from
getting rid of evidence, probably.

Yousuf Khan
 
Y

YKhan

And there was this posting recently, about historical efforts by Compaq
to break Intel's power in the past.

http://www.siliconinvestor.com/readmsg.aspx?msgid=21117891

It's interesting reading the account by this ex-Compaq employee who
found that Intel was becoming less and less cooperative the more and
more it was accumulating power. I found the same thing, I used to be
able to call an Intel 800 number and get all kinds of documentation for
free from Intel, then it started charging for it.

Yousuf Khan
 
R

Robert Myers

And there was this posting recently, about historical efforts by Compaq
to break Intel's power in the past.

http://www.siliconinvestor.com/readmsg.aspx?msgid=21117891

It's interesting reading the account by this ex-Compaq employee who
found that Intel was becoming less and less cooperative the more and
more it was accumulating power. I found the same thing, I used to be
able to call an Intel 800 number and get all kinds of documentation for
free from Intel, then it started charging for it.

Is that because you've become powerful enough for Intel to worry about
you? Let's be friends, Yousuf. ;-).

RM
 
Y

Yousuf Khan

Robert said:
Is that because you've become powerful enough for Intel to worry about
you? Let's be friends, Yousuf. ;-).

What, you didn't know? :)

But seriously, Intel became a much less friendly company sometime ago.

Yousuf Khan
 
C

chrisv

Yousuf said:
For some reason, the story started to get a lot of play today, even
though it broke last week, just before the weekend. I posted a link
about it too. There's probably hundreds of links in Google about this
story already.

Some of the articles even quote European regulators saying that they too
have an investigation going on about it. Prior to this, it seems like as
if AMD was whistling into the wind, nobody wanted to hear about it. AMD
would file a complaint and the regulators would find no evidence. It was
an ongoing cycle. I think the difference this time was that Japan
actually raided Intel's offices without warning. Prevented Intel from
getting rid of evidence, probably.

Yeah, the mindset of the evil businessman is truly a wonder. Intel
has so many advantages over AMD, so much more money, and yet they fell
the need to cheat. Lie, cheat, and steal, and if you don't get
caught, it's all good.
 
R

Robert Redelmeier

Yousuf Khan said:
AMD would file a complaint and the regulators would find no
evidence. It was an ongoing cycle. I think the difference this
time was that Japan actually raided Intel's offices without
warning. Prevented Intel from getting rid of evidence, probably.

I doubt it. Evidence is very hard to get rid of.
Most likely AMD's complaints got minimal investigation:
[Intel to cop]: "Oh no, we would never do that." Case closed.

This time some [brave?] Japanese company probably complained
to MITI and produced documents that showed their discount
was dependant on %Intel, not just volume Intel.

Japanese law may permit the whistleblower to remain anonymous.
US law probably wouldn't. I doubt even Dell could risk
Intel's retaliation. If indeed Intel has gone to the Dark
Side, and this isn't an isolated bad-saleman case.

-- Robert
 
R

Robert Myers

If indeed Intel has gone to the Dark
Side, and this isn't an isolated bad-saleman case.

[Intel to cop]: "These are the actions of a renegade
[salesman/manager/flunky]. Intel employees have been repeatedly
instructed to stay within the law. Here is a memo that we sent to
everyone on the subject."

I'll get whacked again for the "everybody does it" mentality, but,
everybody does it. That's not to say it's okay, but it's hard to get
excited about it.

For all that everybody whines and bitches, Intel is not a monopoly and
probably never will be. People who don't want to buy Intel chips have
realistic choices, much more so than people who would rather never
give another nickel to Gates or the co-predators who live in that
ecosystem (like symantec).

Even had AMD been forced out of business by Intel, the choices people
have wouldn't be as good, but they'd still have choices and Intel, for
all its muscle and meanness, hasn't forced AMD out of business.

The Japanese nor the European nor anybody else's action is going to
make a difference unless and until somebody uncovers a pattern of
behavior complete with smoking guns. I assume Intel just isn't that
stupid.

RM
 
R

Robert Redelmeier

Robert Myers said:
For all that everybody whines and bitches, Intel is not a
monopoly and probably never will be. People who don't want
to buy Intel chips have realistic choices, much more so than
people who would rather never give another nickel to Gates or
the co-predators who live in that ecosystem (like symantec).

The legal definition of monopoly requires "market control",
not 100%. There is little doubt in my mind that Intel controls
the market for desktop and laptop CPUs. If they dropped the
price, everyone else would have to follow. If they raised
the price, few/none would lag (full fabs).
The Japanese nor the European nor anybody else's action
is going to make a difference unless and until somebody
uncovers a pattern of behavior complete with smoking guns.
I assume Intel just isn't that stupid.

Smoking guns (incriminating docs from high levels) would help
prosecution, but aren't absolutely necessary. A widespread
pattern would be just as good. US Antitrust law is a scary beast.
The burden of proof is "guilty until proven innocent".

I agree that Intel isn't that stupid, and most likely this
is low-level overzealousness. Intel also plays nice with
the DoJ in stark contrast with Microsoft. Charging for
dead trees documents doesn't make them nasty.

-- Robert
 
Y

YKhan

Robert said:
Smoking guns (incriminating docs from high levels) would help
prosecution, but aren't absolutely necessary. A widespread
pattern would be just as good. US Antitrust law is a scary beast.
The burden of proof is "guilty until proven innocent".

I agree that Intel isn't that stupid, and most likely this
is low-level overzealousness. Intel also plays nice with
the DoJ in stark contrast with Microsoft. Charging for
dead trees documents doesn't make them nasty.

I doubt it's just a low-level overzealousness. For example, one of the
companies, NEC, was required to limit its purchases of non-Intel
processors based on region of the world it was destined for: 90% within
Japan, 70% to Europe, and 80% to rest of the world. It's all listed in
here. How can specifying marketshares throughout the world be
considered low-level, unless Intel also has marketshares throughout the
Solar System?

http://www.iser.osaka-u.ac.jp/seminar/2005/Arai_Feb_17.pdf

I keep hearing "Intel isn't that stupid", what is that supposed to
mean? They aren't that stupid as to do these sort of things at all, or
that stupid as to _get caught_ doing these things? My feeling is it's
the latter.

Yousuf Khan
 
Y

YKhan

Robert said:
This time some [brave?] Japanese company probably complained
to MITI and produced documents that showed their discount
was dependant on %Intel, not just volume Intel.

Well, that's exactly what it was, on the day that they raided Intel's
office, they also paid a visit to the offices of about five PC makers,
NEC, Fujitsu, Sony, Toshiba, and Hitachi. Obviously to get
corroborating evidence, that perhaps was missing from Intel's own
offices?

Yousuf Khan
 
R

Robert Redelmeier

YKhan said:
I doubt it's just a low-level overzealousness. For example,
one of the companies, NEC, was required to limit its purchases
of non-Intel processors based on region of the world it was
destined for: 90% within Japan, 70% to Europe, and 80% to rest
of the world. It's all listed in here. How can specifying
marketshares throughout the world be considered low-level,
unless Intel also has marketshares throughout the Solar System?

If true, this is extremely severe, at least under US law.
Japanese law may differ. But the prez of Intel Japan either
knew, or ought ot have known. And possibly the Intel CEO.
I keep hearing "Intel isn't that stupid", what is that supposed
to mean? They aren't that stupid as to do these sort of things
at all, or that stupid as to _get caught_ doing these things? My
feeling is it's the latter.

I meant it as "not so stupid as to do these illegal things".
No-one is smart enough to evade detection forever.

-- Robert
 
R

Robert Redelmeier

YKhan said:
Well, that's exactly what it was, on the day that they
raided Intel's office, they also paid a visit to the offices
of about five PC makers, NEC, Fujitsu, Sony, Toshiba, and
Hitachi. Obviously to get corroborating evidence, that perhaps
was missing from Intel's own offices?

Corroboration is good from all sources. On something
as big as this, they'd pull out all the stops.

-- Robert
 
R

Robert Myers

I keep hearing "Intel isn't that stupid", what is that supposed to
mean? They aren't that stupid as to do these sort of things at all, or
that stupid as to _get caught_ doing these things? My feeling is it's
the latter.

A reasonable person in the business might want to be careful about
making allegations that sound actionable. On the face of it, one
might guess that Intel structures its discounts to make life as
difficult as possible for its competitor AMD. Also on the face of it,
whatever Intel may be thinking, it seems unlikely that they would
structure deals in a way that make it easy to show that they are doing
something illegal.

Corporate values have changed over the years, with significant events
leaving a lasting impression: McDonnell-Douglas being charged under
RICO for bribes to foreign officials, the collapse of Enron, the
collapse of WorldCom--I'm sure I've forgotten a few. Now there's
Sarbanes-Oxley, so that board members can't say they didn't know.

Guys with desks the size of putting greens have could stand having
their every move examined by a jury of Sunday school teachers? What
kind of world do you live in, Yousuf? No offense. I respect your
high standards, but the world just doesn't work that way.

Intel is worse than most? I doubt it.

RM
 
R

Rob Stow

Robert said:
If true, this is extremely severe, at least under US law.
Japanese law may differ. But the prez of Intel Japan either
knew, or ought ot have known. And possibly the Intel CEO.




I meant it as "not so stupid as to do these illegal things".
No-one is smart enough to evade detection forever.

I have little doubt that Intel knew exactly what it was doing and
that they planned to continue until they got caught. They simply
weighed the benefits against the risk and decided it was worth
it. And it looks like they were right: when they were finally
caught all that happened was a finger wagged in there face while
momma said "bad boy".
 
Y

Yousuf Khan

Robert said:
A reasonable person in the business might want to be careful about
making allegations that sound actionable. On the face of it, one
might guess that Intel structures its discounts to make life as
difficult as possible for its competitor AMD. Also on the face of it,
whatever Intel may be thinking, it seems unlikely that they would
structure deals in a way that make it easy to show that they are doing
something illegal.

It's not that difficult to figure out the difference between
monopolistic business practices and just standard business practices.
I'm sure Intel would have you believe it's a fine line, hard to tell the
difference, but it isn't. You give your customers discounts based on the
_volume_ of Intel they sell, then that's standard practice. You give
your customers discounts based on _percentage_ of Intel, then that's
monopolistic practice.
Corporate values have changed over the years, with significant events
leaving a lasting impression: McDonnell-Douglas being charged under
RICO for bribes to foreign officials, the collapse of Enron, the
collapse of WorldCom--I'm sure I've forgotten a few. Now there's
Sarbanes-Oxley, so that board members can't say they didn't know.

Guys with desks the size of putting greens have could stand having
their every move examined by a jury of Sunday school teachers? What
kind of world do you live in, Yousuf? No offense. I respect your
high standards, but the world just doesn't work that way.

Play devil's advocate with somebody else, it's simply not working.
Corporate values have not changed -- they've always been like this.
Enron, Worldcom, etc. are just today's examples of things that have
happened in the past, and will happen again in the future. The
anti-trust laws were first put into place over 100 years ago, originally
to control out-of-control railway barons, who were gobbling each other
up and leading towards a monopoly railway (and that's also why the game
of Monopoly is based around railways and land properties). Over the
years, the robber barons have changed from railway magnates, to oil
tycoons, to telephone companies, to full-service computer firms, to
software and chip companies. But their goals have always been exactly
the same -- complete domination of their own industries.

Sunday school teacher morality? Not even close, just enforcement of laws
that are already in place, specifically designed to stop this kind of
behaviour. A sociopathic behaviour so common that the laws have already
been in place for hundreds of years.
Intel is worse than most? I doubt it.

Who cares if Intel is worse than most or not? I don't care if it's
accumulating its monopoly so that it could feed the hungry children of
the world. Completely irrelevant. Think carefully about why there is no
excuse for this behaviour no matter what.

Yousuf Khan
 
Y

Yousuf Khan

Rob said:
I have little doubt that Intel knew exactly what it was doing and that
they planned to continue until they got caught. They simply weighed
the benefits against the risk and decided it was worth it. And it looks
like they were right: when they were finally caught all that happened
was a finger wagged in there face while momma said "bad boy".

Whatever fines are levied against it, whether it is $1 or $1 million is
chicken feed compared to what will come after that. Once Intel has a
record as a monopolist, AMD is free to sue it and use this record as its
proof. Intel will be hounded forever after.

Without sounding too dramatic, make no mistake about it, this is
probably *the* biggest crisis that Intel faces. It is probably its one
nightmare scenario, much more important than any Prescott heat
dissipation problems, fab process problems, Itanium vs. Xeon 64-bit, or
any of the others. Intel's squeeky clean image will disappear if it
either admits to it, or fights it in court and loses. That image has
been what's kept it out of trouble so far -- none of the allegations has
ever stuck to it. It's a bit like hunting for UFO's, you suspect they're
there, but you just can't find the proof. After this everything will
stick to Intel, which is the last thing they wanted to happen.

Yousuf Khan
 
Y

Yousuf Khan

Robert said:
I meant it as "not so stupid as to do these illegal things".
No-one is smart enough to evade detection forever.

Not doing illegal things doesn't require intelligence, it requires
morality and ethics. There's no proof that Intel posesses either of
those things.

Yousuf Khan
 
R

Robert Myers

It's not that difficult to figure out the difference between
monopolistic business practices and just standard business practices.
I'm sure Intel would have you believe it's a fine line, hard to tell the
difference, but it isn't. You give your customers discounts based on the
_volume_ of Intel they sell, then that's standard practice. You give
your customers discounts based on _percentage_ of Intel, then that's
monopolistic practice.
Right. And you know, human beings being the way they are, that the
more loyal customers get the better volume discounts. Pricing can be
wildly arbitrary, and some customers are treated better than others.
Showing that a pricing strategy is predatory could be _very_ difficult
if the pricing strategy is structured properly, even though, in fact,
the strategy is aimed at rewarding loyalty at the expense of a
competitor. That's just the way it goes. Maybe Intel got careless
here. We'll have to see.
Play devil's advocate with somebody else, it's simply not working.
Corporate values have not changed -- they've always been like this.
Enron, Worldcom, etc. are just today's examples of things that have
happened in the past, and will happen again in the future. The
anti-trust laws were first put into place over 100 years ago, originally
to control out-of-control railway barons, who were gobbling each other
up and leading towards a monopoly railway (and that's also why the game
of Monopoly is based around railways and land properties). Over the
years, the robber barons have changed from railway magnates, to oil
tycoons, to telephone companies, to full-service computer firms, to
software and chip companies. But their goals have always been exactly
the same -- complete domination of their own industries.
Laws are actually not all that effective, IMHO, in regulating this
kind of behavior. Market discipline is much more effective. The
Justice Department went after IBM for years for what really were
monopolistic practices. By the time the Justice Department got
anywhere close to enforcement action, one was beginning to wonder
about the survival of IBM, not about market domination.

As to the timelessness of what is deemed unacceptable, you're right at
least that monopolistic practices have a long history of legislation
and enforcement actions. What I was talking about was the
timelessness of people trying to get away with whatever they can get
away with. When something big happens, there is a flurry of activity,
and then people go back to seeing how far they can bend the rules. In
this case, the rule-bending is applied to using pricing in creative
ways that cross over from creative into illegal. No amount of
legislation or jawboning will ever stop such things.
Sunday school teacher morality? Not even close, just enforcement of laws
that are already in place, specifically designed to stop this kind of
behaviour. A sociopathic behaviour so common that the laws have already
been in place for hundreds of years.
You don't think use of the loaded term "sociopathic" a little over the
top?
Who cares if Intel is worse than most or not? I don't care if it's
accumulating its monopoly so that it could feed the hungry children of
the world. Completely irrelevant. Think carefully about why there is no
excuse for this behaviour no matter what.
There are laws, and there are people to enforce the laws, and they
will do their thing. Sometimes events occur, like the collapse of
WorldCom, that lead to meaningful action, like Sarbanes-Oxley. I
suspect that Sarbanes-Oxley is going to prove sufficiently cumbersome
and annoying to highly-paid directors who are unaccustomed to being
encumbered with actual responsibility, that it will be duly watered
down in due course. That's how hard it is to change the way business
is done with legislation and enforcement. The Intel enforcement
action would be interesting if it turned into something other than
isolated enforcement. I'm doubting that it will.

Your comments seem uncharacteristically intense. No plausible action
against Intel will restore the fortunes of Sun.

RM
 
Y

Yousuf Khan

Robert said:
Right. And you know, human beings being the way they are, that the
more loyal customers get the better volume discounts. Pricing can be
wildly arbitrary, and some customers are treated better than others.
Showing that a pricing strategy is predatory could be _very_ difficult
if the pricing strategy is structured properly, even though, in fact,
the strategy is aimed at rewarding loyalty at the expense of a
competitor. That's just the way it goes. Maybe Intel got careless
here. We'll have to see.

I don't think they got careless, I think that this time, their
time-honoured "how to build a monopoly without getting caught" technique
was not fast enough to prevent damage. I am guessing the raid on their
offices a year ago caught them off-guard, as it was meant to. Otherwise
they would've had time to take precautions. My guess is that the
European and/or American regulators are studying the Japanese technique
and getting ready to implement it themselves soon. Previous nice-guy
methods have yielded no evidence, this time it did.
As to the timelessness of what is deemed unacceptable, you're right at
least that monopolistic practices have a long history of legislation
and enforcement actions. What I was talking about was the
timelessness of people trying to get away with whatever they can get
away with. When something big happens, there is a flurry of activity,
and then people go back to seeing how far they can bend the rules. In
this case, the rule-bending is applied to using pricing in creative
ways that cross over from creative into illegal. No amount of
legislation or jawboning will ever stop such things.

There's nothing wrong with giving discounts based on volume. Based on
marketshare percentage is another matter. That sort of thing was
well-known to be illegal long before this case. They are not breaking
any new ground with Intel.
You don't think use of the loaded term "sociopathic" a little over the
top?

Psychopathic is little over the top, sociopathic is right in line.
Your comments seem uncharacteristically intense. No plausible action
against Intel will restore the fortunes of Sun.

Sun? What's Sun gotta do with it?

Yousuf Khan
 

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