Installing Non-Windows Programs for All

[C. Pangus]

I have repeatedly found that non-Windows programs installed as an
Administrator do not work for Users or Power Users. The programs appear on
all Start Menus but when a non-administrator tries to start the programs an
"Access Denied" message appears or the programs' splash screen will freeze
(the *.exe for the program appears in the Process tab of Windows Task
Manager but not under the Applications tab).
I am now looking at a recommendation from a Corel (WordPerfect 10)
newsgroup which advises modifying the default settings of the Windows
Installer in Group Policy Edit to enable "Always install with Elevated
Privileges" under both Computer and User configurations. This seems to me
to be aimed more at allowing anyone to install any program rather than
allowing Administrators to install for everyone's access. Does this work
both ways? (User install for Admin and Admin install for User)
Does this sound like a good, safe, fix for installing non-windows
programs for all users? Does it break down security to the extant that a
virus or program could access and/or install itself to the computer root
which a simple User account would not allow access to?


More basically, why does XPpro install non-Windows programs, which are
rated for XP, differently than MS programs? Is this a case of Bill and
Ballmer trying to push other software makers out of business?

 

[Sharon F]

I have repeatedly found that non-Windows programs installed as an
Administrator do not work for Users or Power Users. The programs appear on
all Start Menus but when a non-administrator tries to start the programs an
"Access Denied" message appears or the programs' splash screen will freeze
(the *.exe for the program appears in the Process tab of Windows Task
Manager but not under the Applications tab).
I am now looking at a recommendation from a Corel (WordPerfect 10)
newsgroup which advises modifying the default settings of the Windows
Installer in Group Policy Edit to enable "Always install with Elevated
Privileges" under both Computer and User configurations. This seems to me
to be aimed more at allowing anyone to install any program rather than
allowing Administrators to install for everyone's access. Does this work
both ways? (User install for Admin and Admin install for User)
Does this sound like a good, safe, fix for installing non-windows
programs for all users? Does it break down security to the extant that a
virus or program could access and/or install itself to the computer root
which a simple User account would not allow access to?


More basically, why does XPpro install non-Windows programs, which are
rated for XP, differently than MS programs? Is this a case of Bill and
Ballmer trying to push other software makers out of business?

I think the use of the term "elevated" is referring to a certain method of
installing programs that are not designed for the XP multi-user environment
and where XP permissions can become a stumbling block.

Elevate the account that will be using the program to administrator status.
Log on to that account and install the program.

After the install is finished, launch the program as that user at least
once to allow any user registry keys needed to be built.

Log off of the account and move it back down to a more limited user group.

The permissions attached to the folder for that newly installed program
will stay with that account but because they are back in a limited group,
they won't be able to install new software.

Many of the older software programs came with two installers. One for Win9x
and one for WinNT/Win2000. Some will install for a single user only.

In XP, the Program Files folder and subfolders is off limits for limited
users. Programs that very actively read/write to their own folders to
operate (not a very good design model) are the ones that seem to give the
most trouble in XP.

Why allow it? So the user can run their old favorite programs. There are
workarounds for getting these older software packages installed and
running. Some methods are more easily implemented in XP Pro than in XP Home
but, perhaps with a bit of experimentation, it is possible to accomplish in
both versions.

 

[C. Pangus]

First, less my ensuing comments seem ungrateful, thank you for your
response: It has been difficult to get one on this subject with previous
posts. You dare tread where no one in these groups has before!

I think the use of the term "elevated" is referring to a certain method of
installing programs that are not designed for the XP multi-user environmen t
and where XP permissions can become a stumbling block.

Except the particular example I am using, WordPerfect10, does include XP
amoung the appropriate OSs. It does not distinguish between XPHome and Pro
and as I am unfamiliar with XPHome I cannot say whether it installs better
there. There is a new WordPerfect11 out but whether that is better
"designed" for XP is another question.
I also use a WinTV Card to input an analogue Closed Circuit TV system to
the computer. I have downloaded Mar 2003 drivers for it which are supposed
to work with XP but have the same problem: The program will run for
Administrators only. While it appears in the Start menu of all Users it
hangs during the *.exe start process.

Elevate the account that will be using the program to administrator status.
Log on to that account and install the program.

After the install is finished, launch the program as that user at least
once to allow any user registry keys needed to be built.

Log off of the account and move it back down to a more limited user group.

I have seen this recommendation, temporarily elevating Users to
Administrators, for adjusting settings from my ISP provider and some desk
top and power settings also. For some reason it makes me feel as though I
am subverting the program design in order to get the program to work.
Thing is, I want to install the programs for All (post subject
title)Users. Would I have to follow this process for each individual user?
Would multiple installs of the same program use hard drive space and create
multiple Start listings and paths or would they automatically combine?

The permissions attached to the folder for that newly installed program
will stay with that account but because they are back in a limited group,
they won't be able to install new software.

I suppose elevating and demoting a User is quicker than changing
settings in the Group Policy Editor (run\gpedit\computer config\admin
templates\windows components\windows installer and same path for User
Config. Prior to this the instructions tell to 'Run\MMC.exe and Add Local
Users and Groups if one has not already done so for other purposes). The
Group Policy on the Windows Installer can also be disabled after it is
configured to enabled.
Is it sane to ask which is the right way and wrong way of doing things?
Or is it just any which way that works?

Many of the older software programs came with two installers. One for Win9x
and one for WinNT/Win2000. Some will install for a single user only.

In XP, the Program Files folder and subfolders is off limits for limited
users. Programs that very actively read/write to their own folders to
operate (not a very good design model) are the ones that seem to give the
most trouble in XP.

But how else can a non-Windows program work than reading/writing to
their own folders? What other folders can they be sure will be available to
them?
Are you sure the issue here is not more one of FAT file system vs. NSTC?
I have frequently seen references to 'file permissions' with the Win2000 and
XP programs as being the best security and management means but have seen
little on just how to do so.
I am also aware of 'compatibility modes' for the old file systems but
since the programs will work for at least Administrators I don't think that
is the issue.

Why allow it? So the user can run their old favorite programs. There are
workarounds for getting these older software packages installed and
running. Some methods are more easily implemented in XP Pro than in XP Home
but, perhaps with a bit of experimentation, it is possible to accomplish in
both versions.

"Why allow it?" That is one heck of a question. If I were to answer
it I suppose I would say something like 'MS allows it because the uproar
over all legacy programs no longer working would be too great even for MS to
take all at once.' Complete prior-program and hardware compatibility have
been a hallmark of all previous Windows programs. I already have hardware
(camera) I cannot use with XP and it seems some programs are going by the by
as well (Other than well known and important ones we are discussing above).
By reducing the openness of Windows' and its ability to run nearly every
program out there it almost seems as though MS has decided that it has
clearly won the OS wars and is now proceeding to restrict outside software
compatibility in order to further corner the market.
Please do not be put-off by my comments. I learned from your response
and am sure I will learn more if you respond once again.

Thanks
C. Pangus

 

[C. Pangus]

As a follow-up note I used this method, found at
corel.com\support\WordPerfect\FAQs and it installed WordPerfect 10 for all
users successfully.
A couple of notes: the program still had to be installed by an
administrator or with an administrator's password. The installation CD
needed to be in the drive the first time each individual User opened the
program for a short 'initialization'.
Hence, it seems security is not threatened and Users still cannot
install their own software. Now to see if this method will work on other
non-Windows software . . .
Now the question arises why MS made the default settings such that
non-Windows programs would not install for all Users. Wouldn't a simple
option in the Windows Installer for who a program is installed for be
appropriate in a multi-user system?

 

[Sharon F]

As a follow-up note I used this method, found at
corel.com\support\WordPerfect\FAQs and it installed WordPerfect 10 for all
users successfully.
A couple of notes: the program still had to be installed by an
administrator or with an administrator's password. The installation CD
needed to be in the drive the first time each individual User opened the
program for a short 'initialization'.
Hence, it seems security is not threatened and Users still cannot
install their own software. Now to see if this method will work on other
non-Windows software . . .
Now the question arises why MS made the default settings such that
non-Windows programs would not install for all Users. Wouldn't a simple
option in the Windows Installer for who a program is installed for be
appropriate in a multi-user system?

Am glad to see you've made some progress on the Corel software. I think
anyone who has installed software on XP, especially for multiple users, can
empathize.

Personally, the Win9x branch of the Windows family is what I was familiar
with before using XP. A handful of migrated programs ran fine once they
were installed but had to hold my breath while the rickety old installers
were running. XP will soon be two years old and most popular software
packages have updated and optimized their installers. Most programs I
install now setup for All Users or they ask All Users/Current User.

Other users have arrived at XP via the NT side of the road and are probably
old hands at dealing with various installers. Then again, maybe not. Those
versions of Windows were usually found in a business environment and did
not accomodate the wide array of software titles that home users were
likely to install. So perhaps your phrase of "whatever works" is most
appropriate for this situation after all.

Aside reply from another part of this thread: Yes, programs should read
from their own folders. How else would they run? At one time writing to
their own folders was "polite" and proper programming but as Windows
evolved, use of the Temp folder for writes and options for save locations
became the more common practice and more convenient for users.