Implementing a RAID System

C

Chris Guimbellot

Hello,

I am thinking about implementing a RAID system for my server. I need to
install something external because of the lack of room inside of the
machine. What I am asking is what type of issues do I need to be looking at?
It seems that I have heard of RAID 'boxes' specifically designed for this
purpose. Basically, I would like to know if anyone has any sites, etc that
explain how to go about adding a RAID system to a server. Thanks,

Chris
 
C

Curious George

Hello,

I am thinking about implementing a RAID system for my server. I need to
install something external because of the lack of room inside of the
machine. What I am asking is what type of issues do I need to be looking at?
It seems that I have heard of RAID 'boxes' specifically designed for this
purpose. Basically, I would like to know if anyone has any sites, etc that
explain how to go about adding a RAID system to a server. Thanks,

Chris

There are two ways to add external DAS raid: either an external JBOD
enclosure connected to an internal controller or an enclosure which
has a controller built in and connects to a local bus. realistically
you are looking at two interfaces to connect these enclosures to the
computer: SCSI & firewire. Where you look next is going to depend on
budget, preference, performance & data security requirements. Since
there are so many options there is no one site to direct you. As I
don't know exactly what you are looking for it's silly to start
dictating specific products.
 
K

kony

Hello,

I am thinking about implementing a RAID system for my server. I need to
install something external because of the lack of room inside of the
machine. What I am asking is what type of issues do I need to be looking at?
It seems that I have heard of RAID 'boxes' specifically designed for this
purpose. Basically, I would like to know if anyone has any sites, etc that
explain how to go about adding a RAID system to a server. Thanks,

Chris

IMO, you should look at a larger server case, keep them
internal if possible.
 
C

Chris Guimbellot

I have never heard that they should be internal. Why is that? Is it a speed
issue. I appreciate your response.
 
K

kony

could you explain why?

Because there's no benefit to the external chassis, not to
address any need that has been mentioned. Internal keeps
cooling and power simple, usually better. It is generally
quieter, also better protection to not have daisey-chained
external boxes. That may not matter, but it might.
Internal will be significantly faster than USB or firewire,
and (maybe I'm wrong?) I expect SATA or SCSI external to be
significantly more expensive.
 
N

net newb

I asked you to elaborate because it wasn't clear to me whether you
were referring to price, convenience, quality, or something else. The
OP simply stated there was lack of room for an array. It's not clear
if he has a small, crammed chassis or a large server case that is
maxxed out, or he wants a large raid volume or several volumes.
Thanks for elaborating.


As I see it the main advantages of external raid are:
- larger arrays or more complex setups simply don't fit internally or
leave no room to scale. Even relatively simple setups require
somewhat pricey chassis for reliable builds & might be well served
through use of external boxes (depending on projected plans).
- makes for a more modular system which can be easier to scale or
swap out
- external boxes offload the power & cooling responsibilities of the
main computer yielding more headroom for cooling & power safety
margin. One needs a high quality $$ server chassis & power supplies
for similar cooling & power quality - where the price differential
against a small & simple jbod enclosure is less significant or may
even be nil.
- a computer chassis (even a larger server chassis) which wasn't
initially purchased with the idea of adding hotswap raid, often
doesn't have enough bays to add this. Rebuilding the computer with a
new, good raidable chassis may or may not make sense.

That being said external boxes are less convenient if the system needs
to be moved or powered down. An external switch/control may be
necessary to compensate somewhat - but you may need this anyway esp
for remote management if this is a server. If you are willing to
spend it is certainly possible to get advanced monitoring features &
protective redundancy in either so that is essentially a wash.


Internal raid is:
- more convenient in many respects; everything is included & managed
& can be transported in one box. Everything is powered up or down
with one switch without need for 3rd party power control.
- If the failure/recovery philosophy favors swap out & replacement of
whole systems rather than parts (for speed or because of support
contracts) then this is better.

As far as noise, either setup can be noisy or quiet. Either can be
made quiet with careful planning & minimal cost (except in certain
cases). Noise of course is not always an issue - it only depends on
whether ppl work or live around it.

I don't buy the better protection argument. A system that is
important enough for RAID and is set up properly & appropriately
should just be humming along & left alone in one place, out of the way
of prying or tinkering hands. A tinkerer can just as easily mess up
an internal setup anyway. It's common to have alarms/access control
for server rooms (& for the paranoid for home offices as well) & locks
on HW or protective racks/enclosures.

As far as speed scsi & sata should not decrease when external. USB is
totally inappropriate for raid due to speed & flakiness. Firewire is
not normally done "internally" and AFIK is slower than scsi (haven't
compared FW to sata).

As we've discussed before price is a little more complicated than
initial investment. Even still when you compare quality items of
either interface the difference in initial investment is not that
impressive (IMO). Quality is another troubling point. FWIS External
firewire & sata offerings tend to be, well crap. While there is also
a ton of crappy scsi raid items, at this time, it appears that one
stands a better chance of finding something decent there - in which
case it is very well suited to external solutions or an internal &
external mix.

In summary yes I agree with your recommendation (as long as it is a
small & simple home or small workgroup server) but for different
reasons:
it will be easier to manage in the end & will avoid the pitfalls of so
many crappy external gear. But internal isn't always possible, or
necessarily more likely to be quieter, or easier, or protected, or
better powered & cooled, or faster, or significantly more expensive
(IMHO).
 
C

Curious George

Still a bad idea, IMO.

What? The external raid or my questionable posting method?

I agree with you on the internal raid when possible just for different
reasons. I just thought elaborating on both our parts might help the
OP (who inquired why).

As for posting my answer as "net newb" my face is red. I was reading
from someone else's computer, got in the flow and forgot to either
pick my fat ass up to post or change the meaningless user profile. I
guess if I frequently posted as different personas I would have it
down by now...
 
K

kony

What? The external raid or my questionable posting method?

LOL, not the posting. It was confusing for a split-second
but easily enough realized.
I agree with you on the internal raid when possible just for different
reasons. I just thought elaborating on both our parts might help the
OP (who inquired why).

Either would work, but we may've overlooked yet another
option, an entire 2nd server... need not be a powerhouse
for merely adding storage.

Another reason is that they're already enough things
tethered to a computer as it is, IMO. They start to take
over and grow like jungle vines.
 
C

Curious George

Either would work, but we may've overlooked yet another
option, an entire 2nd server... need not be a powerhouse
for merely adding storage.

Possibly - but that may be an option but we need to know what he needs
this storage for. A second box serving nas or nas-like performance or
function may or may not cut it or be that economical. It sidesteps
his initial goal without knowing if it is OK.
Another reason is that they're already enough things
tethered to a computer as it is, IMO. They start to take
over and grow like jungle vines.

Sure for a desktop. If his "server" is a jack of all trades, OK also.
If it has a specific, dedicated server type roles likely not.


I also prefer to keep it internal IF it is small but I'm a little on
the boarder on this topic.

Just look at simple server configs like:

- 1 or 2 raid 1 arrays = 2-4 disks (+ hotspare?) : easily handled
internally in most cases & frequently easily able to handle hotswap.

but

- 1 disk or 1 raid 1 array for OS/apps & a small raid 5 or 10 volume
(i.e. 4-6 disks) for data = 5-8 disks (+ hotspare?) : this a pretty
reasonable small server & is already on the boarder-line of what you
can do internally.

Take this >$300 really nice server case for example
http://www.pricegrabber.com/search_getprod.php/masterid=1734758/search=742T

or the newer better version with 8 sata bays & starting at >$100 more
http://www.pricegrabber.com/search.php?topcat_search=1&form_keyword=743T&topcat_id=1&Search=Search

7 or 8 hotswap SATA carriers seems generous at this price & quality-
until you fill em up on day one with no room to scale. Would be a
pity to buy another carrier or put some drives internally & loose the
5.25 bays on day one. RAID very quickly gets out of control when
completely internal - unless you can fit in enough storage for the
next 2 or 3 years growth & plan a total storage or server replacement
at that time.


so what is it Chris? Do you need high performance? large capacity?
multiple arrays? a simple single raid 1? Room to grow? If you want
any more advice - we can't give it to you until we know a little more
about your goals with this raid. If you don't want anymore - that's
fine. I've said about enough in this thread. Budget & time
permitting you can always upgrade a case or server or attach external
boxes to what you already have.

Cheers.
 
C

Chris Guimbellot

Curious and kony,

I want to thank both of you for all of your help throughout this post. I
really appreciate all that the two of you have given me to think about.
Okay, here goes.
so what is it Chris? Do you need high performance? large capacity?
multiple arrays? a simple single raid 1? Room to grow? If you want
any more advice - we can't give it to you until we know a little more
about your goals with this raid. If you don't want anymore - that's
fine. I've said about enough in this thread. Budget & time
permitting you can always upgrade a case or server or attach external
boxes to what you already have.

So basically, this is my situation. I have a server running Microsoft Small
Business Server 2000 that only about 20 users connect to. Just to clarify,
SBS is Windows, Exchange, SQL, Shared Fax all on one server. Basically, I
have the one server that does everything I need it to do, and currently, it
works great. Its just that the users' files and the email system are growing
so the server is running out of room. It probably doesn't help that I only
have 40 GB of space on the server. What I would like to do it offload the
files and the email system to the new drive space. It should also speed up
the entire server a little because the hard drive doesn't write to multiple
places at the same time so much. What I need is probably 80GB of usable
space. In terms of whether I do a RAID 3 or 5, I guess that depends on the
space and cost issues. I do like the redundancy of 3 or 5. I am assuming the
only difference, besides the number of disks, is the speed at which they
operate since the disk writing is distributed between more disks when you
use a 5.

Now that I kind of know what I want, its on to the option of internal versus
external. When I popped open my server, I have 4 drive bays open for use. I
guess that would mean that if I go internal, RAID 5 is out. Correct? I also
have a SCSI card in the machine that I currently have my DLT tape backup
drive connected to. If I went with an external solution, couldn't I simply
chain the DLT and RAID boxes together or is that not a good idea?

One thing that I definitely should mention (why I didn't mention this up
top) is that my server is not really a server. It is a supped up desktop
that was built for use with our goals in mind. That said, it works very well
and should continue to work that way. The only thing is now we need more
drive space. I mention this because maybe since the server is not actually a
server, I cannot do internal RAID.

I would appreciate any further ideas on this. If there is anything I missed,
I would be happy to clarify. Thanks again for your help,

Chris
 
C

Chris Guimbellot

Forgot to mention one more things about my server. Since it is not actually
a server per se, inside, of course, I have IDE, but also since I have that
SCSI card inside, I can do SCSI internally. In fact, my current hard drive
is SCSI. Just thought I would add that.

Thanks.
 
K

kony

Forgot to mention one more things about my server. Since it is not actually
a server per se, inside, of course, I have IDE, but also since I have that
SCSI card inside, I can do SCSI internally. In fact, my current hard drive
is SCSI. Just thought I would add that.

Thanks.

You've mentioned lack of space but no overt performance
problems even running from the single disk. Since it IS
running from the lone disk should we assume you already have
adequate backup strategies in place such that it's not an
issue of data loss?

I suppose I'm wondering why you don't just throw a single
80GB HDD in there. Ideally a RAID wouldn't hurt but since
you're not doing so yet, don't have the support for it yet,
and have not mentioned performance issues, the first thing
I'd do is assess the adequacy of the backup strategy and if
it's suitable for a downtime/loss projection. If you need a
RAID card, that's one issue to look at.

You mentioned buget - obviously the cheapest thing would be
to just buy a single 80GB ATA drive, but again there's the
backup & failure issue to address. With 4 bays empty and
only a need for 80GB, it seems completely unnecessary to go
with an external enclosure, IMO.
 
C

Chris Guimbellot

Thanks again for the help. Here goes:
You've mentioned lack of space but no overt performance
problems even running from the single disk. Since it IS
running from the lone disk should we assume you already have
adequate backup strategies in place such that it's not an
issue of data loss?

I have a DLT tape drive and do a full system backup every night. It works
well, but the problem is that it takes a good 8 hours to back up the system
every night. I really use it in case something gets corrupted or deleted (in
addition to if the hard drive goes down). I would like, however, to not rely
on the tape for hard drive failure.
I suppose I'm wondering why you don't just throw a single
80GB HDD in there...I'd do is assess the adequacy of the backup strategy
and if
it's suitable for a downtime/loss projection.

It takes so long to do a restore of one or two files, if I had to do a full
restore, it would definitely be more time then I can afford to be down.
You mentioned buget - obviously the cheapest thing would be
to just buy a single 80GB ATA drive, but again there's the
backup & failure issue to address.

I agree. I think a small RAID system would strike a good balance between
cost and redundancy/ability to recover.
Also, ATA? I know IDE and SCSI, but not ATA.
With 4 bays empty and only a need for 80GB, it seems completely
unnecessary to go
with an external enclosure, IMO.

That said, if I choose to go an internal RAID, what hardware do I need
(besides some drives of course).
 
K

kony

Thanks again for the help. Here goes:


I have a DLT tape drive and do a full system backup every night. It works
well, but the problem is that it takes a good 8 hours to back up the system
every night. I really use it in case something gets corrupted or deleted (in
addition to if the hard drive goes down). I would like, however, to not rely
on the tape for hard drive failure.

You might consider relaxing the tape backup interval and
using a (usually) offline HDD for nightly backup. I'd not
recommend only using a RAID system to avoid regular backups,
as there are more issues involved with data loss than (only)
a drive failure.

It takes so long to do a restore of one or two files, if I had to do a full
restore, it would definitely be more time then I can afford to be down.


I agree. I think a small RAID system would strike a good balance between
cost and redundancy/ability to recover.
Also, ATA? I know IDE and SCSI, but not ATA.


ATA aka IDE. There are more options for SCSI RAID3,5, but
for your needs even a simple RAID1 should suffice. You are
only talking about 80GB with no (mentioned) performance
problems, a 3rd/etc drive isn't needed for a mere 80GB.
That said, if I choose to go an internal RAID, what hardware do I need
(besides some drives of course).

The RAID card (assuming your SCSI card will not support
this) and the cabling, ie - SCSI or ATA drive cables. Of
course there's SATA raid too, another alternative to the ATA
at similar price-point.
 
C

Curious George

I have a DLT tape drive and do a full system backup every night. It works
well, but the problem is that it takes a good 8 hours to back up the system
every night. I really use it in case something gets corrupted or deleted (in
addition to if the hard drive goes down). I would like, however, to not rely
on the tape for hard drive failure.

Wait a second. Something's not right. Are you performing a full
backup every night? Is the tape shoeshining? Is this like DLT2000
old? An old DLT 7000 or 8000 should do a complete backup & verify of
your 40GB system in around 2 hours. You should fix this issue first
before "rocking the boat" & significantly altering the server you seem
otherwise happy with.
It takes so long to do a restore of one or two files, if I had to do a full
restore, it would definitely be more time then I can afford to be down.

right lets fix your tape problem first. You're still going to need
tape even with the raid & even with caching the backups to a nas or
extra hdd. The increased throughput from raid may help somewhat the
backups, but you should understand & fix this problem first.
I agree. I think a small RAID system would strike a good balance between
cost and redundancy/ability to recover.
Also, ATA? I know IDE and SCSI, but not ATA.

maybe not if this is a DIY type project & he is willing to scrounge a
little. 2x new 74gig scsi drives which are solid but maybe not the
newest 15k flavor & a new external enclosure & amphenol & madison
cabling care of ebay or a discount place like pc-pitstop.com using SW
raid or say a Mylex U160 controller. This would be external scsi raid
nearly 80GB without breaking the bank. The DLT likely cost much more
when new. I'm so unimpressed with the external sata & FW offerings
I've seen that even scrounging seems more attractive to me.
That said, if I choose to go an internal RAID, what hardware do I need
(besides some drives of course).

All you NEED is the requisite drives & cabling (either scsi or ata).
The SBS OS does some SW raid. It would be better to get a good
quality raid controller & hotswap backplane. Yes you can just attach
2 more scsi drives to the scsi controller & make a raid 1 volume no
prob. You don't want the dlt on the same channel as a raid array on a
raid controller but it should be OK on a small setup with a single
channel generic hba.

You can continue to get by with a souped up desktop with ata but I
really think the SQL & Exchange for 20+ users could benefit from low
latency server scsi drives esp as the data grows. A good server nic
might help also. A solid server foundation might make you happier in
the long run if running raid & multiple mission critical roles. The
questions you really need to answer for yourself is how happy are you
with getting by & how maxxed out is this server presently?

1 word about raid 3 & 5. raid 3 is seen as obsolete & requires,
generally, an older controller or a rare specialty external system.
raid 5 has a lot of engineering & performance hurdles a manufacturer
must jump through. If budget is an issue your data will be safer with
raid 1, 3, or 10. The parity levels (3,5,6,50, etc) require a fast
processor & lots of ram (at least 64MB) and a battery backup doesn't
hurt. The mirror levels (1,10, 0+1) really fly on a lot less and can
withstand more disk failures. While 1, 3, or 5 can withstand 1
failure, 10 or 0+1 can withstand loss of 50% of the disks (as long as
they are the right ones). with 10 there is a higher likelihood that
it will actually withstand more failures than 0+1. Also the mirrored
levels are more likely to perform an extra write verification on the
fly whereas you can pretty much forget about this with most raid 5.

From a pure space perspective Raid 5 is still an option for your
server, but it will max it out from the get go and as this isn't a
real server platform, you may have problems cramming every bay & slot
and expecting so much of the machine.
 
C

Curious George

You are only talking about 80GB with no (mentioned) performance
problems

Well I think he did elude to some problems:

"It should also speed up the entire server a little because the hard
drive doesn't write to multiple places at the same time so much."

"it takes a good 8 hours to back up the system every night"


SQL & exchange can be pretty IO intensive. So can preparing thousands
of tiny files for backup. Putting the OS/Apps on a different physical
disk or array than the data is, as he thinks, a step in the right
direction. Some raid levels might help this also as well as faster
drives. When he starts talking about upgrades providing no real
expected performance benefit then we know all the bottlenecks are
gone.

Hey Chris. While you're rethinking this server, how are the cpu, ram,
and network interfaces doing during normal use? Also you mention
having ATA inside & also the current drive is SCSI. What exactly do
you have as far as disks and how are they being used?
 

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