Image size and printer DPI

P

PeterF

Hi guys
I am on a speed learning mission, trying to understand how large an
image I need to create in Photoshop to print to A3+ with a format of 13
by 44 inches.

My desire is to print at about 400 DPI, in part because I keep reading
that this is pretty much the minimal requirement for photo quality
output.

But when I read the specifications for the printers I consider for
purchase, I am unsure as to what these specifications mean for my
design:
Epson R1800 and R2400 say they print 5760 x 1440 optimized dpi
Epson Stylus Pro 4000 suggests:
· Fast printing at 720 x 360 dpi
· Quality printing at 720 x 720 dpi
· Photo quality printing at 1440 x 720 dpi

What image size should I use to feed such printers for photographic
quality output? I do understand that I can simply multiply the output
dimensions of 13x44 inches by my desired resolution of 400 DPI. But I
do not understand how this then gets treated by the above printers. Of
particular confusion is the proposition that, in the above, quality
printing has a 'square' DPI value, ie 720x720; but photoquality has
twice the DPI in one direction (I assume the horizontal direction)!
 
E

Ed Ruf

Hi guys
I am on a speed learning mission, trying to understand how large an
image I need to create in Photoshop to print to A3+ with a format of 13
by 44 inches.

My desire is to print at about 400 DPI, in part because I keep reading
that this is pretty much the minimal requirement for photo quality
output.

But when I read the specifications for the printers I consider for
purchase, I am unsure as to what these specifications mean for my
design:
Epson R1800 and R2400 say they print 5760 x 1440 optimized dpi
Epson Stylus Pro 4000 suggests:
· Fast printing at 720 x 360 dpi
· Quality printing at 720 x 720 dpi
· Photo quality printing at 1440 x 720 dpi

What image size should I use to feed such printers for photographic
quality output? I do understand that I can simply multiply the output
dimensions of 13x44 inches by my desired resolution of 400 DPI. But I
do not understand how this then gets treated by the above printers. Of
particular confusion is the proposition that, in the above, quality
printing has a 'square' DPI value, ie 720x720; but photoquality has
twice the DPI in one direction (I assume the horizontal direction)!

You have confused the two basic concepts of image pixels per inch
(ppi) with printer dots per inch (dpi). It can be a bit confusing
given image resolution is denoted , incorrectly and confusingly using
the dpi as well. You need to distinguish between the two,as they are
NOT the same.

Suggest you start with the basics on Wayne Fulton's useful Scantips
pages at http://www.scantips.com/basics01.html

For photographic quality prints one "typically" strives for ~300ppi.
For this you would require and image of

13" x 300ppi = 3900 pixels high by
44" x 300ppi = 13200 pixels wide.

This is a start. Ideally the Epson printer drivers prefer to be given
720 ppi as that is the resolution they work in and will resample
anything else to this. So if you want full control it's best to output
this. One easy way of doing this and the resampling and printing in
general is through the use of a tool such as Qimage. You might take a
look at the demo and give it a try. http://www.ddisoftware.com/qimage
I have no affiliation with it, other than being a long time satisfied
user.
 
R

Roy G

Hi guys
I am on a speed learning mission, trying to understand how large an
image I need to create in Photoshop to print to A3+ with a format of 13
by 44 inches.

Hi.

There are a number of things to consider.

First of all the figures quoted for Printer Dpi, (5760 x 1440) has nothing
to do with Image Ppi. It has only to do with the number of Dots of ink laid
down on the paper.

The higher the Printer Dpi the more dots of ink are used for each of the
Image Pixels.

The higher the Dpi you use to make prints, the slower the Printer will run,
and the more ink will be used.

All of the printers you mention are capable of Superb Quality, and when you
get one you should try out the various quality settings to see if you can
spot the difference. I rarely use 1440 Dpi on my Epson 1290 and have never
used 2880 Dpi.

Most Printers seem to be designed to produce maximum Print quality at 300
Ppi rather than the 400 you quote. There is a way of determining which is
the Optimum Ppi for your particular printer, but I cannot remember where I
saw it or how to do it
..
There is no point in using a higher Ppi figure than the Printer needs, it
will then just resample down to its required figure.

The bigger the Image, the further away the viewer will be, so that means you
can get away with a lower Image Ppi. I have produced exhibition prints as
low as 160 Ppi, but that is pushing the boundaries just a bit. It very much
depends on the Picture Content.

The image size you need is limited by the capabilities of the device you use
to create the image.
There is no way a single image from a 6Mp, 10Mp or 13Mp Camera is going to
give a 13 x 44 Image at 200Ppi. A 39Mp back on a M.F. Camera easily could.

I have heard a Photoshop Guru / Lecturer advocate that, for each inch on the
long side of an image you need 1 million pixels in the file. This must only
be applied to standard paper proportions, and automatically lowers the Ppi
as the print get bigger. A 44 x 33 print would need 44 million pxl which is
175 Ppi. So a 13 x 44 would need 13x175x44x175 which is 17.5 million.

But before cropping to the 13 x 44 shape, you would still need 44 million
pxl in the original file.

( B.T.W.

I am not saying, that a 13x44 print could not not be produced from a 6Mp
Camera, because I have no doubt that there are others here who have done so
and done so very well. I am saying that you could not do so on a regular
basis, and you could be pretty sure that it would not work on the vast
majority of attempts.)

Roy G
 
J

John McWilliams

Ed said:
On 16 Jun 2006 03:29:01 -0700, in comp.periphs.printers "PeterF"

This is a start. Ideally the Epson printer drivers prefer to be given
720 ppi as that is the resolution they work in and will resample
anything else to this. So if you want full control it's best to output
this. One easy way of doing this and the resampling and printing in
general is through the use of a tool such as Qimage. You might take a
look at the demo and give it a try. http://www.ddisoftware.com/qimage
I have no affiliation with it, other than being a long time satisfied
user.

Other than a few Qimage users, I have yet to hear from anyone that
feeding an Epson more than 300 ppi gives better results for most
printing jobs.
 
M

measekite

This whole question is manifestly a matter of generic ink...

something you should never never use especially in an epson pigmented
printer that costs what these do. one has to be totally insane to use
generic ink.
 
P

PeterF

Posting questions surely is a bit like fishing; some days you get
nothing, but some days you strike it lucky - which I did this time, and
I am grateful for that.

Ed says to read scanning tips at a link he provides. I did that and
found it to be very informative. I find the input that Epson printers
prefer 720 PPI very helpful. And yes, I do understand the difference
between PPI and DPI; but did assume the printer should be fed with one
P for each L, so to speak. Although I can see that this can hardly be
so.

In regard to the comments on useful size from a camera image, I guess I
should have mentioned that I plan to make an 'assemblage', ie put
many images on the one page, and then print it. So it will need to be
viewed close up - sort of a photo gallery on the lounge room wall.

I guess my question remains, and is related to Roy's input where he
says "There is a way of determining which is the Optimum Ppi for your
particular printer, but I cannot remember where I saw it or how to do
it."

My assumption would be that the printer's parameters ought to be a
multiple of my design attributes. For example 360 PPI to print to an
Epson with 5760 x 1440 optimized dpi. In this way, each pixel I supply
to the printer would result in a whole number of printer dots being
used to print it.
 
A

Arthur Entlich

PeterF said:
Hi guys
I am on a speed learning mission, trying to understand how large an
image I need to create in Photoshop to print to A3+ with a format of 13
by 44 inches.

My desire is to print at about 400 DPI, in part because I keep reading
that this is pretty much the minimal requirement for photo quality
output.

400PPI (Pixels per inch) is probably a bit of overkill for an inkjet
image, especially for a larger image. Keeping in mind he larger the
image, the further away the viewer will be to look at it. Drugstore
style prints (from a wet lab) usually resolve to about 200 dpi, and
those are usually small and viewed up close.
But when I read the specifications for the printers I consider for
purchase, I am unsure as to what these specifications mean for my
design:
Epson R1800 and R2400 say they print 5760 x 1440 optimized dpi
Epson Stylus Pro 4000 suggests:
· Fast printing at 720 x 360 dpi
· Quality printing at 720 x 720 dpi
· Photo quality printing at 1440 x 720 dpi

Some of this is just hype, but some is about understanding what these
numbers mean. The numbers you see are the possible positioning on any
one dot on the paper. Any ONE dot. That is one color of ink only. In
order to create the hundreds of thousands of colors you see on a print,
the dots have to resolve small enough that you do not see individual
dots, but instead a group of dots that together give the illusion of a
blended color. The matrix necessary to do this is usually at least 16
dots (4 x 4) or so. The reason I can't pin this down exactly, besides
that it differs depending upon the printer and the color and the number
of inks used, is because most color inkjet printers use a system which
is constantly adjusting dot colors and relationships per line slowly
adjusting to subtle blends, unlike offset printing, which does use an
exact matrix on dots.

So, other than the exact ink colors coming out of the cartridges, all
other colors are mixes of colors by placing different colored dots next
to one another. In the case of Epson printers, depending upon the
vintage of the printer, and the size of the carriage, the software
always rasterizes the image up or down to 360, 720, or 1440 ppi,
regardless of what you feed it. Most Epsons use 720 or 1440 today.

However, what yo need to know is that the visible differences between
supplying a 300 ppi, 360, 400 and even 720 ppi source file becomes
increasingly diminished, and the advantage is lost when considering the
size of the file, amount of hard drive space, spool space, time involved
in rasterizing the image, and working with in in something like photoshop.

So, my recommendation , and my personal use, is to usually feed the
printer images at somewhere around 300 ppi or even less from large
images (over 12" wide) and for smaller images 360 to 400 max. After
that it is really a toss up as to what the advantage is, although some
very high contrast images with sharp details on contrasting colors MAY
benefit for up to 720 ppi is you are really looking at the thing with a
loupe.

So, that's about source file resolution and rasterizing, however there
is a second matter, that of printing resolution... or how many dots per
inch maximum you want the printer to produce.

The smaller the dot the printer produces (usually in picolitres), and
the lower the number of ink colors (especially with four color CMYK),
the more important the printer output resolution is. However, having
said that my experience has been that over 1440 dpi becomes difficult to
notice, and slows the printer down considerably. For draft work I use
360 or 720 dpi, for photographic work, final version on smaller images
(less than 11" wide) I go 1440 if the paper is capable of high
resolution and low dot gain. Otherwise, I'm back at 720 dpi again (and
that's for printers with only 4 color inks, six color or more makes it
even less important, because they blend with less trouble, usually use
higher dot sizes, etc.

Lastly, there is the issue of what part of your personal arsenal does
the bast job of upsampling your image. For most people, Photoshop does
the best job of upsampling. This means taking a lower resolution image
from, say a digital camera, and bringing to the printer output
dimensions in the ppi resolution you want. For example, let's say you
have a 4 megapixel image about 2300 x 1730 ppi. Left alone, without
upsampling, that image will make a 300 dpi image at printer output of
about 7.7" x 5.75", so if you need a larger image output from the
printer, say about 14.5" x 11" that same image is now only about 160
ppi. So, you probably want to upsample it to about 240-300 ppi or even
more (360?? ppi) and if Photoshop is the best method to do so, you would
use it to do the upsampling. But you may also have a really good
printer utility which may do a better upsampling, and therefore you may
prefer to have it upsample the resolution. Keep in mind that all of the
methods for upsampling the image will interpolate or create/manufacture
pixels based upon some knowledge of surrounding pixels in the image. In
some cases you might even find that not upsampling and just allowing the
printer rasterizer to print it as is will supply the better result.

It takes some experimentation to determine which method gives the result
you best like. Also, almost all images after upsampling or when taken
from a digital or scanned image need some unsharp masking to reestablish
the lost resolution due to the noise suppression and sampling
algorithms, but it needs to be used with some judgment.
 
A

Arthur Entlich

Although I agree that most Epson printers use a "native" resolution of
720 ppi to rasterize to, that doesn't really mean that resolution is
necessary in the real world as an input file, and in fact, tests show
very minimal advantage in most images to working so large.

The vast majority of people would be very hard pressed to see a
meaningful difference in quality and resolution between a printer input
file of 720 ppi over 360 ppi, and considering the size of such an image
and the inherent difficulties with working with such an image
(especially one 13" x 44") I certainly wouldn't bother with that large a
file.

Art
 
A

Arthur Entlich

Not necessarily so. With the older Epson printer drivers it was found
that using a multiple like 240 or 360 ppi was useful in reducing some
types of artifacting. That problem went away years ago.

Keep in mind that the dithering process used by Epson is a stochastic
method which is constantly adjusting the distribution of the dots/colors
based upon the surrounding color pixels, so having a directly divisible
relationship to the raterized resolution has no meaningful effect. In
fact, some empirical testing with certain Epson printers showed that the
upsampling or downsampling process to "fit it" to a divisible number
did more damage to the file than using a random number that required no
resampling.

Art

PeterF wrote:
 
P

PeterF

Information to the maX! thank you Arthur for the highly informative
input; and for taking the time to respond in such detail.

You seem to confirm a number of things, including that it is a good
idea to have a design PPI that maps onto the printer parameters in
whole numbers.

But you are also pointing out the fact that the paper needs to be
'good' enough to reproduce an image should I go with high PPI. I will
also take on board your comments regarding upsampling!

Thanks again; Peter
 
B

Bob Headrick

PeterF said:
Information to the maX! thank you Arthur for the highly informative
input; and for taking the time to respond in such detail.

You seem to confirm a number of things, including that it is a good
idea to have a design PPI that maps onto the printer parameters in
whole numbers.

Reread Art's post - he actually said it makes no difference, and in some
cases can be worse.

- Bob Headrick
 
P

PeterF

Am I able to benefit once more from all this knowledge? especially
since some comments mention upsampling and downsampling!

I am in the process of scanning old camera negatives and slides. My
thinking has generally been that I should scan at the highest possible
resolution of the scanner; tolerating the rather large files that
result. In this case I use a CanoScan 8400F and am scanning at 3200
DPI.

The basic reasoning is the idea of capturing all detail the negatives
hold; and by the looks of it, that is what happens. That is, the
process clearly reveals all shots of low quality in regard to exposure
and focus.

But since I do not always want to print large images, I have often
wondered if there would not always be a loss in quality if an image was
downsampled. I lack the experience and expertise to tell from some
early results. But I wonder if I would be better off to scan at two
different resolutions for the highest quality at large and small
prints, respectively.
 
A

Arthur Entlich

Hi Peter,

If I left the impression that whole number divisors are still important
in the inkjet printing work flow, I have not been clear enough.

Older drivers did benefit from this, but the current crop show no
advantage to using a direct ratio. I no longer concern myself with it,
using either whatever the source material works out to in a certain
size, or just conforming at a 300 dpi for most applications, simply
because its a reasonable compromise.

Resampling has more impact on the image integrity than does printing in
a non-interger relation to the driver or print dpi.

Art
 
P

PeterF

To Bob and Art, my apologies!

Might have been a case of "if you want something confirmed hard enough,
then no matter what the input, you'll 'have' it confirmed!"

But I would still be very appreciative of some comments regarding
down-samling.

Peter
 

Ask a Question

Want to reply to this thread or ask your own question?

You'll need to choose a username for the site, which only take a couple of moments. After that, you can post your question and our members will help you out.

Ask a Question

Top