If not .Net then what?

[Cor Ligthert[MVP]]

Herfried,

Please (you know what I want to write)

Cor

 

[Jeff Gaines]

On the other hand, C and C++ are optimized for writing system applications
(kernel mode, heavy interaction with hardware, etc.).

I would love to go back to pure C, but I would like a decent IDE and drag
and drop creation of forms. Is there anything like that available nowadays?

 

[Herfried K. Wagner [MVP]]

I would love to go back to pure C, but I would like a decent IDE and drag
and drop creation of forms. Is there anything like that available
nowadays?

This can be done using VC++ in C mode, for example. You can define forms as
Win32 dialog resources and use these resources in your Win32 C projects.
Note that most of the Win32 API is C-based and does not require C++. I am
sure that similar tools exist for other forms packages too.

 

[Herfried K. Wagner [MVP]]

Please (you know what I want to write)

Sorry, I don't know what you want to tell me...

 

[Tom Shelton]

That much is fine. It's a perfectly valid objection. I should point out
that C# also has an ISO standard; I'm not sure whether the CLI which
has an ECMA standard also has an ISO standard - but either way, unless
you include things like Mono, it's still a single supplier system.

I'm not sure why people discount mono all the time. Mono works and is
being used - for real applications. No, it is not 100% compatible with
MS's implementation - but, it is pretty close.

 

[Randy Howard]

I'm not sure why people discount mono all the time. Mono works and is
being used - for real applications. No, it is not 100% compatible with
MS's implementation - but, it is pretty close.

On what percentage of the platforms for which a standard (pick a
flavor) C or C++ implementation is available?

 

[Mr. Arnold]

On what percentage of the platforms for which a standard (pick a
flavor) C or C++ implementation is available?

This is another poster out of comp.programming that you should just
simply ignore him as he too is an old retired, mind you, fossil that's
not in the game any more.

 

[Jeff Gaines]

This is another poster out of comp.programming that you should just simply
ignore him as he too is an old retired, mind you, fossil that's not in the
game any more.

Happy New Year to you too

Some of the best products in their class have been produced by people who
do not have to price their time in to them.

 

[Mr. Arnold]

Happy New Year to you too

Some of the best products in their class have been produced by people
who do not have to price their time in to them.

Oh, I left out he's a MS and .NET hater to the max, and he sitting in
his little Admiral chair do nothing, count on it.

 

[Liz]

message

of for, performing expensive operations within your loops, and using
recursion. Recursion incurs the overhead of having to repeatedly build new
stack frames"

but that's not unique or specific to C#

 

[Liz]

Denial? Interesting.

psycho-babble ...

No, that's begging the question.

it's begging YOUR question; so what were you doing wrong?

 

[Liz]

Bart C said:



That's a perfectly sensible request, but alas, the answer is no, I can't
do
that. This is because the incident in question occurred (several years
ago) on a client site - NDA applies, so I wouldn't be able to show the
code to you even if I had a copy (which I don't). And since I never use
.Net any more if I can possibly avoid it, I simply don't care enough to
construct an example. Sorry.

so why in god's name are you talking about code you don't have, can't
disclose (nonsense and you know it) and don't really care about ?

 

[Richard Heathfield]

Liz said:

psycho-babble ...

Sure. Let me put it another way. I find it interesting that people would
rather pretend a problem doesn't exist than find ways of dealing with it.

it's begging YOUR question; so what were you doing wrong?

It seems you don't know what "begging the question" means. As for what we
were doing wrong, "using .Net" was the conclusion we came to at the time.
So we fixed that.

 

[Richard Heathfield]

Liz said:

so why in god's name are you talking about code you don't have, can't
disclose (nonsense and you know it)

Even if I had the legal right to disclose it (which I don't), how could I
disclose code I don't have? Duh.

and don't really care about ?

If you had read my first reply in this thread [1], you would know the
answer, and you wouldn't have had to ask such a silly question.

But to save you the trouble of learning how to track down a Usenet article
by its message ID, I'll tell you. Someone claimed that they'd only ever
heard one objection to .Net. So I offered a couple of other objections -
performance and portability (lack thereof, in both cases). It seems,
however, that this thread has been cross-posted to some .Net fan groups,
and some rather animated defence of .Net has been going on. Well, I can
understand that. But most of the defenders have managed to keep a civil
tongue in their heads. You could learn a thing or two from them.

Message ID: <[email protected]>

 

[spinoza1111]

so why in god's name are you talking about code you don't have, can't
disclose (nonsense and you know it) and don't really care about ?

Liz, part of the joy of programming is that it gives us insight into
logics of society and, from that insight, some control over our
lives...which we're not supposed to have.

My experience is that you're talking to a fellow who uses confusion in
his business dealings. In my experience, he makes obscure references
to language standards to describe common, and understandable, if
slightly confusing, expressions in C and C++ as unpredictable when in
fact they are defined by a virtual machine, while the standard needs
to accomodate novel platforms which he isn't qualified to program, and
which provably equate to the semantics of the VM. He also makes
elementary mistakes in execution at those rare times when his modus
operandi are exposed.

Hero computer scientist Edsger Dijkstra said some time ago, in so many
words, that "at university, we learned that Truth matters: in the
'real' world of business, we learn that only Secrets matter". I'm
afraid that his newsgroup is dominated by people who under financial
pressure in an ongoing world collapse are becoming Fascists, and who,
as Fascists, confuse and destroy Truth using references to what they
know to be Secrets, even as the Nazis used references to blood libels
and Protocols to insinuate that their opponents were incompetents, or
malefactors.

You're not going to get any straightforward answers out of Heathfield.





Edward G. "spinoza1111" Nilges, author of "Build Your Own .Net
Language and Compiler", Apress, May 2004.


Cyberbullies need not respond.

 

[Andre Kaufmann]

Michael D. Ober said:

Happy new year to all.

[...]
It said .Net on the box. Are you telling me Microsoft were lying to my
then-client by claiming it was .Net when really it wasn't .Net? Would you
advise them to sue Microsoft?

The C++ compiler can generate mixed assemblies. Some part is native some
part is managed - hybrid.

In any case, it is not my claim that .Net apps are slower than C++, because
C++ doesn't have a speed. It's a language, not an implementation. The

However you are comparing the speed of a C++ application with a managed
C++ one - don't you ?

speed of the "vanilla" C++ version varied depending on whether the
executable image had been built using Intel, gcc, or Visual Studio.

.Net, however, /is/ an implementation, so it does make sense to talk about
the speed of .Net applications - and in my experience it is unacceptably
slow. If you have a different experience, I'm pleased for you.

I've given one example, which proves the opposite. 6 times more assembly
code than the C++ native code generates.

[...]
heard one objection to .Net..." - because he has now heard at least three.

We are still missing an example, which proves it. I've given one which
proves the opposite. That doesn't mean that I claim it to be always the
case.

I can find hundred examples where C++ is faster and where a managed
version is faster. Perhaps more examples where C++ is faster, but the
point is use the best tool for the task you want to accomplish.

If the developer is more experienced in C++ then it will be C++, other
way round the developer might be more productive with another language
but the result mustn't be slower than the C++ implementation.

It's always the same discussion C++ is better than ..., Java is better
than .... or other way round. Or Linux is better than ...., Open Source
is better than....., Shell Xxxx is better, Desktop Xxxx is better.

How about working together ? Using the best tools from both sides,
languages etc. ?

Andre

 

[Arne Vajhøj]

I'm delighted to hear it, but in a fast-moving business like software
development you don't get two chances at a first impression.

You are narrowing your tool set unnecessarily if you assume
that the x60 difference is a general case.

Arne

 

[Arne Vajhøj]

What's to figure out? .Net was as slow as syrup, when we already had
something as fast as fireworks. So obviously we dropped it. You can say
it's down to a lack of programmer skill if you like, but your claim
translates to ".Net is so difficult that it can't be used efficiently by
two programmers with over 40 years C++ experience between them" - which
doesn't bode well for .Net, does it?

I don't think it say much.

Ask 2 programmers with 40 years of C# experience - hmmm make that
10 programmers with 40 years of C# experience - to write a C++ app.

I doubt the result will be good. And that is not C++'s fault.

It is not clear to me whether the .NET language used was C# or
managed C++ aka C++/CLI, but the latter looks like C++ but
is significantly different anyway.

Arne

 

[Arne Vajhøj]

The .Net apps I was refering to here were all desktop apps.

Then I do not understand the "slower than their desktop counterparts".

Arne

 

[Arne Vajhøj]

Okay - *at the time*, no, we didn't bother. We simply showed the boss the
comparative figures, and he agreed that there was no point in continuing
with .Net. After all, everyone has deadlines, and we'd already beaten
ours. The last thing anyone wanted was to add another three months to the
project while we fiddled around trying to figure out how to get Yet
Another Microsoft Technology to do as it's told. It was that or deliver
fast code, early, within budget. We chose the latter. Wouldn't you?

I think everybody would.

Just don't conclude too much from the experience.

Arne