How do hybrid drives work?


C

Charlie Hoffpauir

Can someone explain how hybrid drives work? I understand SSD's and how
they have to be "cleaned up" using TRIM or some other means, but does
a hybrid have some built-in mechanism to do a similar function on the
solid state portion of the hybrid?
 
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Y

Yousuf Khan

Can someone explain how hybrid drives work? I understand SSD's and how
they have to be "cleaned up" using TRIM or some other means, but does
a hybrid have some built-in mechanism to do a similar function on the
solid state portion of the hybrid?

A hybrid drive will also by necessity need to support the TRIM command.
It is one part SSD, and one part HDD. The SSD part is no different than
any other pure SSD.

Yousuf Khan
 
C

Charlie Hoffpauir

A hybrid drive will also by necessity need to support the TRIM command.
It is one part SSD, and one part HDD. The SSD part is no different than
any other pure SSD.

Yousuf Khan
Ok, thanks for that, it makes sense even to me.
But, then it would seem that I could use a small SSD to improve the
performance of my 1 TB disk drive, and somehow keep all the actual
data on the hard drive (where it is now). I presently have a 250 GB
SSD that has OS and programs, and 1 TB Hard drive, and an old 125 GB
SSD thats not being used any more (it was originally used for the OS
and Programs). Is there a way to utilize that SSD like it was a part
of a hybrid drive?
 
Y

Yousuf Khan

Ok, thanks for that, it makes sense even to me.
But, then it would seem that I could use a small SSD to improve the
performance of my 1 TB disk drive, and somehow keep all the actual
data on the hard drive (where it is now). I presently have a 250 GB
SSD that has OS and programs, and 1 TB Hard drive, and an old 125 GB
SSD thats not being used any more (it was originally used for the OS
and Programs). Is there a way to utilize that SSD like it was a part
of a hybrid drive?

There was a class of SSD's sold called SSD accelerators, but I don't
think that you can use any old SSD to be an accelerator, it requires
special firmware, I guess. Basically, it looks like part of an existing
hard drive.

Yousuf Khan
 
F

Flasherly

But, then it would seem that I could use a small SSD to improve the
performance of my 1 TB disk drive, and somehow keep all the actual
data on the hard drive (where it is now). I presently have a 250 GB
SSD that has OS and programs, and 1 TB Hard drive, and an old 125 GB
SSD thats not being used any more (it was originally used for the OS
and Programs). Is there a way to utilize that SSD like it was a part
of a hybrid drive?

Should be, although in practice that sort of arrangement is only sold
on a couple of (somewhat discounted) niche SSD units, their
requirement being Windows8 in order to function, which neither W7 or
XP will apparently properly fulfill. All else being equal, the
machine processor and architecture being the same, either that
particular SSD lacks what else in component logic a SSD normally has,
or software available to Windows 8 is less conspicuously made
available, to provide as driver-kernel adaptations, for a similar
function you're proposing. Unless of course you were running W8 and
unaware of the potential.

Reviews, nonetheless, do appear positively received.

Have you considered dividing the 250G/byte HDD into two 125G/b drives,
one of which will be the SSD for sharing with the platter drive in a
RAID configuration. Not that, seriously, I've ever heard of anyone
attempting such;- I just wouldn't offhand see why not.

I do have, I should say, at present near 300G/byte of free space,
22G/b is inexcusably RAW;- 80G/b of that sum being SSD real estate,
for somewhat of a similar quandary off fluctuating odds, from a
resulting 200G of platters, which variously are filled, replenished
with datum of a somewhat lesser consequence to import. Backups, if
not among by in large unused potentials of sundry and questionable
lasting viability.

The advantage should be half your data reads and writes will
infinitesimally become a negligible factor of direct SSD NAND access,
or at least, possibly, as fast as two adapted RAID 10K/rpm performance
class HDDs.

Perhaps you're fortunate. Unlike 250G/bytes of platters comprising
programs and an OS, my OS is under two gigabyte (a temporary 3/Gb swap
file is assigned elsewhere to a plattered drive), and my programs only
occupy 5/Gbyte, again on another logical partition. However, all are
already on SSD with still 80Gbyte surplus, aforementioned, now largely
unaccounted.

Or, perhaps not. Last RAID I attempted, I killed both HDD units,
Western Digitals. Perhaps when 120G/b, maybe 200G/b drives were
popular upper-range storage facilities. Neither lasted long enough to
amount to doodly-squat, though, in my estimation. Haven't tried RAID
since, nor a Western Digital, come to think of it.
 
F

Flasherly

Haven't tried RAID
since, nor a Western Digital, come to think of it.


Wrong. Have one and only one WD: a 640G/b HDD. Been running like a
gang-buster, and looks to want to replace as long as my oldest Seagate
200&250G/b have run. Over ten years continuous operation when I can
swing them into a steady-eddy machine.
 
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C

Charlie Hoffpauir

Wrong. Have one and only one WD: a 640G/b HDD. Been running like a
gang-buster, and looks to want to replace as long as my oldest Seagate
200&250G/b have run. Over ten years continuous operation when I can
swing them into a steady-eddy machine.

You mentioned RAID earlier in the thread, and I did have that
arrangement for a couple of years before I got the first SSD. First
tried a pair of 500 GB Seagates, and that worked fine giving me a TB
for programs and data. As data grew (I do a lot of Photoshop and
Video), I changed that to a pair of Hitachi 1TB ea in RAID and that
also worked great. However, I'm paranoid about backups, and
particularly with the RAID 0 arrangement containing "everything", so I
got a 2 TB Seagate and backed everything up to it twice a day via
scheduled tasks to run batch files. Now, I have the Samsung SSD
holding OS and programs, and so only back it up occasionally (once
every few months) but back up the data disk daily. I was thinking of
setting up a RAID 0 arrangement just for the data, but then was hit
with the idea of somehow utilizing the older SSD to get faster reads
and writes from the data disk. Right now the problem is that I'm
running out of SATA ports, and my MB is kind of old and only supports
SATA II. That's limiting the SSD speed and probably also a RAID
config. I've ordered a SATA card that supports SATA III (Startech
XSAT34RH) so I'll see what that does. Earlier attempts to use another
SATA card in a PCI slot didn't work.... probably a MB problem because
I tried two cards and neither worked.
 
F

Flasherly

On Sat, 21 Jun 2014 09:23:42 -0500, Charlie Hoffpauir

Interesting - sounds you've been using some pretty efficient
practices, raiding along with a backup. I never got into it that long
to be able to develop a RAID preference. Pretty well disgusted me when
I lost one HDD in a RAID config within a year and the other shortly
after. COMPUSA purchased HDDs on sale may have been a part of that,
although HDDs never are exactly all that cheap, at least to me, and I
do expect better than that;- another factor is I don't believe they
were exact serial# duplicates, although very close. (Oh well, it's a
big world. Not much of a NTFS fan, either - for another story - and
almost exclusively run FAT32 given that option.)

Know that story well - running out of SATA ports. Startech XSAT34RH,
eh - 4 ports of course do cost more. Not many (6 on NewEgg / 16 on
Amazon) reviews at the commonplace purchasing outlets, though they do
lean to favorable. My last was a $5 board (shipping included for a
god's-sake Newegg sale), but I started having trouble with a 1T HDD on
it - so I guess I got lucky and got the HDD off it before I really got
"in some instances, exactly what you paid for and deserve."

Bought another board - $19 Silicon Image. They're all somewhat
similar to me - 2 ports, cheap, (well - for me, could have been
cheaper yet), and lots of reviews. This one has a different player
for the actual chipset, along claims to 3T recognition for fame. My
standards, though, are survivability, and for a multimedia center all
that basically entails is to function properly and last until either
I'm sick of it and/or it's outdated and fit for a trash barrel.

Not sure why two others shouldn't have worked. Granted, especially
with bottom-feeding prices I indulge, I wouldn't especially trust an
overall integrity of PCI controllers (as much as native MB chips),
although I can usually get them up and at least going. 6G/b thruput
on an older MB PCI architecture, though - can't say I've asked for
that. Does sound nice and if you do realize those
speeds...interesting. I've also older MBs and presently have at best
seen occasional 90Kbyte/sec with SSD related transfers. Normal speeds
can range from a Class10 USB flashstick, at 20-30K/b/s, to 20-50K/b/s
on platter-to-platter transfers. Nothing stellar in a relative sense
and in case you've ever owned RLL or MFM drives -- 10-20M HDDs - an
"upgrade" of course from computing on only a floppy-based system. :)

Hope the Startech XSAT34RH comes thru and does it for you.
 
C

Charlie Hoffpauir

Update...

I rec'd the Startech XSAT34RH card yesterday and installed it. It
doesn't work at all, my computer wouldn't POST with it installed.
However, I don't necessarily think this is a problem with the
Startech, I've never been able to get anything but a video card to
work in that PCI video slot, even tho the cards (including the
Startech) say they will work. I suspect it's a problem with my old
Foxconn MB.

I guess I'll have to be satisfied with SATA II speeds on my SSD and
HDD's for a while.

It's going back to Newegg today.
 
F

Flasherly

Update...

I rec'd the Startech XSAT34RH card yesterday and installed it. It
doesn't work at all, my computer wouldn't POST with it installed.
However, I don't necessarily think this is a problem with the
Startech, I've never been able to get anything but a video card to
work in that PCI video slot, even tho the cards (including the
Startech) say they will work. I suspect it's a problem with my old
Foxconn MB.

I guess I'll have to be satisfied with SATA II speeds on my SSD and
HDD's for a while.

It's going back to Newegg today.

That's too bad. ASUS, Gigabyte -- MSI, Intel. The list grows
narrower over time, at least for me, brands boards I've owned. MSI,
haven't owned one in ages, though they used to treat me right. Of
course that StarTech works (along with a zillion other $10-20 class,
2-port SI/SYBA controllers out there). It's the MB. Ideal way to
address it, most confidence I'd feel, would be a MB itself. I really
don't like adding another $20 to the cost of a MB for a controller, I
feel the MB should provide. Of course the problem is mine, in
selection of the right MB, in the first place, for future
contingencies and available ports.

Price of memory and a CPU/heatsink, though may not make it feasible --
(or conversely) may: I bought both a used x2 4200 AMD dualcore CPU and
memory DDR2 from EBAY on my last system. Memory twice (I screwed up
the first purchase). Add another $35 to the cost of the MB ($15 CPU,
$10 heatsink, $15 a gigabyte memory). Presently on my second PCI
controller FWIW: the 1st, Silicon Image I paid $5/shipped (NewEgg),
after a year in operation was potentially trying to kill my 1T Samsung
HDD (some "nasty issues" were arising). This second, I'm now running,
cost $20 and its still a Syba/SI (all those controllers I buy are
basically in the same class -- cheap as I can get them for the most
decent reviews), except for a different chipset controller. Got a
"hunch" (famous last words, eh) it'll hold up.

Only thing I don't skimp on if at all avoidable are MB brands and
Power Suppy make/quality. I don't like usually to spend over $50, if
that, for a MB. (Same goes for a PS.)

Once, ages and ages ago, NewEgg sent me a returned-item, a videocard I
bought after NewEgg marked it for a special sale. Perhaps somebody had
overclocked the holy hell out of. In any event that was one and only
item I've ever returned to them;- and the last time I ever bought from
Newegg something other than indicated for factory new. Those Ebay
purchases I mentioned: first time I've ever bought a computer part
from Ebay. Got lucky.

The cost of that StarTek, believe you mentioned in a $70 range, ouch -
pricey little sucker considering potentials, nor something I'd care to
spend. Most MBs now should contain 4 SATA HDD ports, a few likely
have 6 ports -- all the latest greaest, faster speeds and standards
&etc., not sure. Usually are a few decent ones under $50...
 
F

Flasherly

(famous last words, eh)

$15 free shipping
160 reviews on NE, 16 on Amazon... good reviews for the most

http://www.amazon.com/Syba-SD-SATA150R-SATA-Port-Controller/dp/B000BU7XNG
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16815124006

SD-SATA150R
Description: PCI 2-channel Serial-ATA host controller card. With
optional software RAID function. The most popular version of 2-channel
Serial-ATA host controller add-on card, with optional RAID 0, 1
function.

* PCI Specification Revision 2.2 compliant
* Silicon Image SIL 3512 host controller chip
* Support 66 Mhz PCI with 32-bit data
* Compliant with programming interface for Bus Master IDE
Controller, Rev1.0
* Support programmable and EEPROM, FLASH & EPROM loadable PCI
class mode
* Integrated SATA Transport, Link Logic & PHY layer
* 48-bit sector addressing
* Virtual DMA
* Serial ATA Specification Revision 1.0 compliant
* Dual independent DMA channels with 256KB FIFO per Serial-ATA
channel, transfer rate up to 1.5Gb/s
* Internal Serial-ATA port x 2
*
* Supports 3TB HDDs
* Supports SSD.
* Support Boot to CD/DVD
 
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C

Charlie Hoffpauir

(famous last words, eh)

$15 free shipping
160 reviews on NE, 16 on Amazon... good reviews for the most

http://www.amazon.com/Syba-SD-SATA150R-SATA-Port-Controller/dp/B000BU7XNG
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16815124006

SD-SATA150R
Description: PCI 2-channel Serial-ATA host controller card. With
optional software RAID function. The most popular version of 2-channel
Serial-ATA host controller add-on card, with optional RAID 0, 1
function.

* PCI Specification Revision 2.2 compliant
* Silicon Image SIL 3512 host controller chip
* Support 66 Mhz PCI with 32-bit data
* Compliant with programming interface for Bus Master IDE
Controller, Rev1.0
* Support programmable and EEPROM, FLASH & EPROM loadable PCI
class mode
* Integrated SATA Transport, Link Logic & PHY layer
* 48-bit sector addressing
* Virtual DMA
* Serial ATA Specification Revision 1.0 compliant
* Dual independent DMA channels with 256KB FIFO per Serial-ATA
channel, transfer rate up to 1.5Gb/s
* Internal Serial-ATA port x 2
*
* Supports 3TB HDDs
* Supports SSD.
* Support Boot to CD/DVD

Yes, I saw that one, decided to go with the more expensive one,
realizing that I'd "probably" have to send either one back, as I'd
tried cheapo controllers already without sucess in that slot.

(Now to start planning on what MB to upgrade to)

My MB has 6 SATA ports on-board, but I have them all in use and the
optical drive on the PATA IDE cable. I really wanted the SATA III
capability, expecially for the SSD... mabe even giving me the ability
to use the old SSD as a small fast drive as some sort of cache.
 
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F

Flasherly

Yes, I saw that one, decided to go with the more expensive one,
realizing that I'd "probably" have to send either one back, as I'd
tried cheapo controllers already without sucess in that slot.

(Now to start planning on what MB to upgrade to)

My MB has 6 SATA ports on-board, but I have them all in use and the
optical drive on the PATA IDE cable. I really wanted the SATA III
capability, expecially for the SSD... mabe even giving me the ability
to use the old SSD as a small fast drive as some sort of cache.

They're all pretty much going to be SATA 6G.

More money for a controller doesn't mean much to me when MBs, such as
this Gigabyte are for all intents the same cost as the damn controller
I bought. Of course this does *only* 2 6G/III SATA ports / no onboard
video / and it's an AMI slot. Point is still $29 ($5 cupon code
presumably) for a MB is unreal for anything decent. Gigabyte usually
is. (ASUS/Gigabyte/MSI they'd be my selections).

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128696

AMD Sempron 3850 Kabini Quad-Core 1.3GHz Socket AM1 25W Desktop
Processor AMD Radeon HD 8280 SD3850JAHMBOX - a $40 processor to figure
out, video for instance. DDR3 another probably $20 for a couple gig.

FM2/FM2+ a more expensive MB

AM3+
9 processors available, expensive over $100 processors excluding a
sole Sempron. But they've some onboard chipped video.

MBs do tend get expensive - starting adding on features. 6 or 8 SATA
6G ports, 2 PCI slots excluding video. I like two PCI slots *a lot*
more than one - my XONAR soundboard only, I'd feel like in a cage.

AM3+ (possibly FM2/FM2+) for EBay offerings (need older used
processors if that were to be a source).

Didn't even hit Intel (may have better/good offerings).

I tell you, Charlie, when I go researching a basic system build it
takes hours and hours...sometimes days. Get it all together and make
a decision, but hold out for a little while to let it all settle, gel
just a tad more before pulling any triggers.

Damndest thing though, your MB rejecting a PCI-slotted HDD controller.
I'd strip that thing out (disconnect all drives) just to see if the
PCI controller's BIOS augmentation did __not__ catch after the screen
"press DEL" for the MB BIOS passes. If the controller will come up...
Then start adding back your 6 HDD connections, one at a time, checking
for a BIOS conflict, looking what's walking all over a PCI controller
in jack boots. May want to think about consolidating whatever it is
you're doing with 6 HDDs in a case, anyway. A single 2T for $60-70
might also go a long way. Took my 3 HDDs per build down to 2, in a
manner of speaking, by adding a SSD to each and pulling out 2
250G-class old Seagates. Liable not even to connect DVD units until I
need them, leaving the cables off and dangling to turn off and bring
back up only when needed. Just trying to go easy on a PSU, keep a
dash of heat out, if all else is the same.

Also have a "pretty high" stack of accumulated T-class HDDs I keep
around for docking stations and external archive storage. Kind of a
nice feeling knowing they're not on, say, 24/7 and doing a lot of idle
sitting at 105-110F. I let the SSDs do those roles now, along with my
oldest 600-700G HDDs, a single Tbyte drive - they do take a brunt of
some "unavoidable beatings."
 

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