Hot-Swapping SATA: Not Happening?

[(PeteCresswell)]

SP3.

Just put one of these puppies in:
http://www.icydock.com/goods.php?id=45

If I power down the PC, insert a disc, then boot up the disc is
recognized.

But if I remove the disc while the PC is running and then
re-insert it XP never recognizes it.

Seems to be at odds with the claim of SATA hot-swappability.

The same exercise works a-ok when the disc is in a USB wrapper as
in one of these guys http://tinyurl.com/ok32mh when it is in USB
mode. In SATA mode, it's the same story. Different PC, but
the same story: remove it and it's gone for good until the next
boot.

Am I missing something?

 

[Bert Hyman]

In "(PeteCresswell)"

SP3.

Just put one of these puppies in:
http://www.icydock.com/goods.php?id=45

If I power down the PC, insert a disc, then boot up the disc is
recognized.

But if I remove the disc while the PC is running and then
re-insert it XP never recognizes it.

Seems to be at odds with the claim of SATA hot-swappability.

The same exercise works a-ok when the disc is in a USB wrapper as
in one of these guys http://tinyurl.com/ok32mh when it is in USB
mode. In SATA mode, it's the same story. Different PC, but
the same story: remove it and it's gone for good until the next
boot.

Am I missing something?

As I understand it, the ability to hot-swap SATA depends on features
implemented in the driver. If the driver doesn't support it, you can't
do it.

You might look around the drive/controller properties and see if there's
a checkbox to enable it.

 

[(PeteCresswell)]

Per (PeteCresswell):

But if I remove the disc while the PC is running and then
re-insert it XP never recognizes it.

Oops.

Just found this line in the sheet that came with the device:

"6. To perform hot-swap function, the host side must also
support hot-swap".


Could there be a new SATA card in my future?

Maybe some kind of BIOS setting?

 

[Paul]

Per (PeteCresswell):

Oops.

Just found this line in the sheet that came with the device:

"6. To perform hot-swap function, the host side must also
support hot-swap".


Could there be a new SATA card in my future?

Maybe some kind of BIOS setting?

If you have a modern Intel Southbridge SATA interface,
you'd select the AHCI driver, as it supports hot plug.

If the same driver is being used by your boot drive as
well, then the best time to install the AHCI driver, is
by pressing F6 while you're installing the OS. While
there are (complicated) recipes for changing the driver
on the fly, if you're just using the Intel installer
as delivered, it will prevent a user from changing
to AHCI from the vanilla driver. So the transition to
AHCI is more complicated on WinXP. On later OSes, the
OS has a built-in AHCI driver, and all you'd need to
do is go into the BIOS and select AHCI. WinXP doesn't have
AHCI support, and the hardware manufacturers decided they'd
have less trouble if they blocked such migrations.

"HOW TO switch from IDE to AHCI mode without having to reinstall Win XP (GUIDE)"
http://forum.msi.com.tw/index.php?action=printpage;topic=106575.0

[ I would back up the OS partition, before trying that one... ]

In the case of WinXP, it's a Catch22 situation. If the BIOS
setting is currently "IDE emulation" for the SATA interface,
then when you go to install the Intel driver, it'll refuse, because
it can't see an AHCI device. If you go into the BIOS first,
and set the interface to AHCI, then the computer can't boot.
So then, you have no opportunity to use the Intel installer.
You're blocked either way, a Catch22. The recipe in that
msi.com.tw forum article, details how to get around that.

Some other drivers support hot-plug, without making a
big fuss about it. So you may not see that feature
mentioned in the documentation. The very first driver
I heard about, that supported hot-plug, did so without
documenting it. A user broke the SATA connector on
their hard drive, and every time they held the
connector in place, by hand, the OS could see the
drive. And that's how it was determined that hot-plug
was working, purely an accidental test case while
trying to do data recovery with a broken connector
present. (And, as far as I can remember, that was
before AHCI even existed.)

If you were to purchase a separate controller card for
some reason, and it has ESATA connectors on it, then
chances are good it comes with the right kind of driver.
And being a separate controller, it won't interfere with
your existing boot drive setup details. Always read the customer
reviews for the controller card first, to make sure
that hot-plug actually works. I've heard of at least
one case, where an ESATA product didn't have working
hot plug - presumably the wrong driver was being shipped
with it.

Paul

 

[Tester]

In light of the Blue Screen Of Death, I'm thinking you are on to
something with the driver thing. Maybe I need a different
driver or set of drivers.

No what you need is to reformat your HD and re-install the OS from
scratch. You have been having the problems for the past 1 month and you
won't be able to solve it because your system is completely screwed up
now that you have tried all sorts of things.

Just reformat your HD and start from scratch and your problem will be gone.


Let us know if you need any help in re-formatting the HD.

Incidentally, you also need to learn how to sync your system time
because you are ahead of the rest of the world by few hours. I am
posting this after you yet your post is above mine!

 

[(PeteCresswell)]

Per Bert Hyman:

As I understand it, the ability to hot-swap SATA depends on features
implemented in the driver. If the driver doesn't support it, you can't
do it.

You might look around the drive/controller properties and see if there's
a checkbox to enable it.

I just stumbled on to something in BIOS called "AHCI". Seems tb
a device capability for "Advanced" features - including hot
swapping.

Tried enabling it and, sure enough, a new chipset or something
made it's presence known on the boot screen.

But once it got to Windows, there was a blue screen that lasted
about a 50th of a second and then it re-booted itself.... i.e. I
had created a boot loop by turning AHCI on.

In light of the Blue Screen Of Death, I'm thinking you are on to
something with the driver thing. Maybe I need a different
driver or set of drivers.

OTOH, I just read something somewhere about AHCI having tb turned
on at the time Windows is installed for it to work - maybe more
of the same driver issue....as in Windows having to see it and
select the proper driver.

 

[The poster formerly known as 'The Poster Formerly]

SP3.

Just put one of these puppies in:
http://www.icydock.com/goods.php?id=45

If I power down the PC, insert a disc, then boot up the disc is
recognized.

But if I remove the disc while the PC is running and then
re-insert it XP never recognizes it.

Seems to be at odds with the claim of SATA hot-swappability.

The same exercise works a-ok when the disc is in a USB wrapper as
in one of these guys http://tinyurl.com/ok32mh when it is in USB
mode. In SATA mode, it's the same story. Different PC, but
the same story: remove it and it's gone for good until the next
boot.

Am I missing something?

There should be no problem hot-swapping sata drives if done right. I
have one of these hot swap sata docks at home, and one at work, and it
is an infinitely handy type of device.
http://storage-news.com/2010/06/28/hot-swap-sata-to-usb-3-0-dock-from-thermaltake/

 

[(PeteCresswell)]

Per Paul:

If you were to purchase a separate controller card for
some reason, and it has ESATA connectors on it, then
chances are good it comes with the right kind of driver.
And being a separate controller, it won't interfere with
your existing boot drive setup details. Always read the customer
reviews for the controller card first, to make sure
that hot-plug actually works. I've heard of at least
one case, where an ESATA product didn't have working
hot plug - presumably the wrong driver was being shipped
with it.

I'll read up on the workaround - maybe even give it a shot - but
the separate controller card sounds like the path of least
resistance to me.

Thanks for the detailed insights.

 

[VanguardLH]

SP3.

Just put one of these puppies in: http://www.icydock.com/goods.php?id=45

If I power down the PC, insert a disc, then boot up the disc is
recognized. But if I remove the disc while the PC is running and then
re-insert it XP never recognizes it.

After swapping the SATA device, did you rescan for new/changed devices?

Disk Management applet (diskmgmt.msc) -> Action -> Rescan Disks

I haven't used hot-swappable SATA disks and am just guessing that making
the OS go look might have it find the new device.

 

[(PeteCresswell)]

Per VanguardLH:

After swapping the SATA device, did you rescan for new/changed devices?

Disk Management applet (diskmgmt.msc) -> Action -> Rescan Disks

I haven't used hot-swappable SATA disks and am just guessing that making
the OS go look might have it find the new device.

The picture I am getting it that it isn't as simple as with other
new devices bc there is a chicken-egg conundrum around turning on
AHCI in the BIOS/Windows being able to boot.

Sounds like the official cant is that Windows must be installed
from scratch with AHCI turned on.

I am pursuing Paul's suggested workaround - which involves
installing the AHCI driver for the SATA controller, then turning
on AHCI and crossing my fingers.

viz:
"HOW TO switch from IDE to AHCI mode without having to reinstall
Win XP (GUIDE)"
http://forum.msi.com.tw/index.php?action=printpage;topic=106575.0

The problem of the moment is how to get said driver.

GigaByte EP45-UD3L.

Lots of listings that are close - as in EP45-UD3LR - but no exact
hits.

I've downloaded a half-dozen near-match candidates, but every
time I try to kick off the installer .exe, it says something to
the effect of "Wrong mobo".

 

[Dominique]

Per VanguardLH:

The picture I am getting it that it isn't as simple as with other
new devices bc there is a chicken-egg conundrum around turning on
AHCI in the BIOS/Windows being able to boot.

Sounds like the official cant is that Windows must be installed
from scratch with AHCI turned on.

I am pursuing Paul's suggested workaround - which involves
installing the AHCI driver for the SATA controller, then turning
on AHCI and crossing my fingers.

viz:
"HOW TO switch from IDE to AHCI mode without having to reinstall
Win XP (GUIDE)"
http://forum.msi.com.tw/index.php?action=printpage;topic=106575.0

The problem of the moment is how to get said driver.

GigaByte EP45-UD3L.

Lots of listings that are close - as in EP45-UD3LR - but no exact
hits.

I've downloaded a half-dozen near-match candidates, but every
time I try to kick off the installer .exe, it says something to
the effect of "Wrong mobo".

I always download Intel chipset drivers and ICHxxx drivers directly from
Intel, so far, they've always worked.

Have you tried those?

http://downloadcenter.intel.com/Detail_Desc.aspx?agr=Y&ProdId=2791
&DwnldID=13675&lang=eng

http://downloadcenter.intel.com/Detail_Desc.aspx?agr=Y&ProdId=2791
&DwnldID=13609&lang=eng

....and for installing at the same time than the OS (F6 method):

http://downloadcenter.intel.com/Detail_Desc.aspx?agr=Y&ProdId=2791
&DwnldID=18668&lang=eng

HTH

 

[Paul]

Apologies for digging up a year-old thread ...

I've a GA-EP45 board which sports both the excellent ICH10R and the
absolutely disgusting JMicron JMB363, and whilst I can get the JMicron
chip to do hot-plug eSATA under XP Pro 32-bit, data throughput is
disgusting and system stability is woeful. I can easily get SATA
hot-swap working under Windows 7 with the ICH10R, and even designate
which of the six SATA ports are hot-swap and which are not -- everything
works as Bob had intended, and I have two of the 10R's ports going to a
backplate to provide two standard eSATA connections, both of which have
SATA storage-docks connected.

(I have a lot of very very large sample libraries.)

However, because Windows 7 is useless for music production, I still need
to run XP ... but for the life of me, I cannot get hotswap working on
the ICH10R under XP! I've tried registry tweaks, driver shifts, I've
even built over a dozen nLite'd XP installers with different versions of
Intel's AHCI drivers and they will all happily install XP to an ICH10R
connected drive when AHCI is enabled in the BIOS.

Unfortunately, hot-swapping never works.

If anyone can shed any light on this, I would be most grateful.

If it was me, I would:

1) Jumper drive using "Force150" jumper, on the theory that the cable
was too long. Your "disgusting" JMB363 results, could be indicating
a CRC error condition on the SATA cable. The signals may go further,
if cable transfer rate negotiation is force-limited to 150MB/sec.
Not all drives have a jumper for it, but Seagate does. With Hitachi,
they use a software solution to configure the drive, which is a
nuisance. The jumper type on my Seagate is a 2mm jumper, and not the
more common 0.1" jumper (different size). Check the label on the drive
for details.

2) Try the "Add Hardware" control panel, after the drive is connected and
powered up. Or try Device Manager, click the top entry in the hardware
list, then check the "Action" menu for a "Scan for Hardware Changes" item.
Maybe the hardware just needs a kick in the pants. If you want a command
line solution to scanning for changes, it's possible the Microsoft
"devcon" utility can do it (devcon rescan). (The command line version
may help if you want to make yourself an icon to click...)

http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;EN-US;Q311272 (devcon)

I'm not sure how you'd go about verifying that the hardware knows
something is connected to the cable.

HTH,
Paul