Healthy thread

[Vinnie Barbarino]

I am starting a new thread that is related to Patty's questioning the
necessity of XpSP2. The opinions of the Xpsp2 contrarians were colorfully
expressed and articulate my sentiments about Xpsp2.
I am not a computer novice. I am a physician who does a lot of database
development. I rely on a good OS to run by database apps. I am forced to
use the MS operating systems. I chose to upgrade to XPpro. SP1 was the
latest available at the time of my most recent purchase of computers. I
like XPsp1. No problems. I don't have time to waste spending hours on
several unsuccessful installs using the suggestions offered by the MVP's. I
have nothing against the MVP's, but I do have an issue with MS. They do
have a monopoly on operating systems. I want to get something reliable off
the shelf. I don't have time to learn Linux. In their zeal to conform with
their business model, MS releases OS upgrades/updates prematurely. If there
was a viable competitor at this point in time I would switch from MS to a
vendor that was more sensitive to there customers. Dealing with MS is like
fighting city hall.
The customer is always right is the philosophy that a business owner should
follow. Unfortunately, when there is a monopoly the business owner can
thumb his nose at the customers.
I am happy for the fortunate ones that updated to XPSp2 without
difficulties. I have no ill will toward the loyal MS soldiers that are
"MVP's". I just would like MS to service the vast number of unfortunate
customers that cannot successfully upgrade to XPSp2 with a free new version
of XP that includes SP2 that is not just an upgrade. A response such as
"check out these web-sites for sp2 info is not enough. I paid for a product
and I expect quality service. MS makes a bundle of money. They can return
some of there profits to help the loyal, but dissatisfied customers that
fell through the upgrade cracks.

Michael Israel, M.D.

 

[Jupiter Jones [MVP]]

Michael;
Then have someone install SP-2 for you:
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/using/helpandsupport/ballew_04sept20.mspx

 

[Shenan Stanley]

Let me start off with a general (non-reply) statement saying I could care
less about Microsoft, Linux(any flavor), BeOS, OS X, OS/2 Warp, or any other
operating system out there. Whatever is there - I use and learn - whatever
my customer uses, I use and learn to support. What bothers me who people
who think whining about this issue makes any difference.

Have you seen the television commercial where two dozen people are aghast at
the fact someone would throw a piece of trash on the ground two feet from
the garbage can - then someone walks up and picks the trash up and throws it
away? IE: Do something about the issue instead of complaining. You are not
being MADE to use one product or the other for your personal use and if you
are an application developer, you have even more say. I suppose it is
easier just to follow the money than have actual convictions, though.

I am starting a new thread that is related to Patty's questioning the
necessity of XpSP2. The opinions of the Xpsp2 contrarians were
colorfully expressed and articulate my sentiments about Xpsp2.
I am not a computer novice. I am a physician who does a lot of
database development. I rely on a good OS to run by database apps.
I am forced to use the MS operating systems.

If you do the database development, why are you "forced" to use the MS
operating systems?

I chose to upgrade to
XPpro. SP1 was the latest available at the time of my most recent
purchase of computers. I like XPsp1. No problems. I don't have
time to waste spending hours on several unsuccessful installs using
the suggestions offered by the MVP's. I have nothing against the
MVP's, but I do have an issue with MS. They do have a monopoly on
operating systems. I want to get something reliable off the shelf.
I don't have time to learn Linux.

Ah - so instead of being "forced", you claim lack of time to do anything
else.

In their zeal to conform with
their business model, MS releases OS upgrades/updates prematurely.

Yeah - beta testing for 6 months to a year is rushing things a bit....

If there was a viable competitor at this point in time I would switch
from MS to a vendor that was more sensitive to there customers.

There are viable competitors, especially for developers.

Dealing with MS is like fighting city hall.
The customer is always right is the philosophy that a business owner
should follow. Unfortunately, when there is a monopoly the business
owner can thumb his nose at the customers.

See, this is a "perfect world" philosophy you give here. Doesn't exist.
Much like the "monopoly" you just inferred Microsoft has. You said yourself
the reason you do not use Linux was lack of time - thus, in reality - it is
a choice. You could MAKE time for anything.
Actually - even in a non-monopoly situation, the owner could thumb his nose
at the customer. May not stay in business long - but I bet that was your
point. However, the problem is not that Microsoft thumbs its nose, its the
fact that all the "people" do about it is take it.

I am happy for the fortunate ones that updated to XPSp2 without
difficulties. I have no ill will toward the loyal MS soldiers that
are "MVP's". I just would like MS to service the vast number of
unfortunate customers that cannot successfully upgrade to XPSp2 with
a free new version of XP that includes SP2 that is not just an
upgrade.

Most MVPs I know are not "MS Soldiers", many are people who do their job
daily and help people because that is what they like to do. Some help in
other newsgroups completely unrelated to Microsoft. My bet is 75% of them
would be found on a BeOS newsgroup, if that was what they had to support in
their daily lives as well. A computer is a tool. An OS helps you use that
tool. These people are there to make sure the interface to the tool works
and most could care less what the interface looks like - as long as they
learn it and learn it well enough to help others through troubles.

A response such as "check out these web-sites for sp2 info
is not enough. I paid for a product and I expect quality service.
MS makes a bundle of money. They can return some of there profits to
help the loyal, but dissatisfied customers that fell through the
upgrade cracks.

Sure - and it probably wouldn't be much money relatively. The percentage of
actual failures seems to be relatively small, not to mention the amount of
money made by Microsoft in a given year. Enough to actually PAY their
bosses over $800,000 per year each - not to mention $300,000+ bonuses. No
disagreement there - they have the cash to do something. What though?

- Send out trained people to your house?
- I'd say a special web page/documentation - but you ruled that out.
- Free training to the people you called "MS Soldiers"?
(Would you attend a seminar to learn to install and troubleshoot problems
with the OS?)

You mentioned providing a "free new version of XP that includes SP2" - that
seems counter productive - what would that accomplish? "Here's the OS you
couldn't manage/maintain/install before, but it's free now!" Perhaps you
could elaborate on this plan for us?

What ideas do you have to change the way things are instead of just
complaints?
Isn't that what SHOULD be discussed? It's easy to stand up and talk/type -
but not as easy to take up the reigns and lead the way?

I battle the same problems I see on these newsgroups every day - but I don't
have this "Microsoft is the root of all evil" attitude. I don't dislike
Windows XXXX.. I don't dislike OS X.. I don't dislike Linux.. Throw
whatever else you want to in there - so I have nothing to change. Things
work for me no matter what OS you throw in the mix. Adaptation - it's what
humans thrive on, right?

If you cannot drive a stick-shift(manual transmission), you don't buy a
manual transmission. However, if you either are the curious type or you are
somehow thrown into a situation where you have to, you learn to drive that
stick-shift.

Who wants to be bored?

 

[Shenan Stanley]

Then have someone install SP-2 for you:
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/using/helpandsupport/ballew_04sept20.mspx

heh

Now that's an idea.

 

[Jupiter Jones [MVP]]

That it is, I just discovered it and it is on my website.
Another option for those to timid to install SP-2 all by themselves.

 

[Incognitus]

I am starting a new thread that is related to Patty's questioning the
necessity of XpSP2. The opinions of the Xpsp2 contrarians were colorfully
expressed and articulate my sentiments about Xpsp2.
I am not a computer novice. I am a physician who does a lot of database
development. I rely on a good OS to run by database apps. I am forced to
use the MS operating systems. I chose to upgrade to XPpro. SP1 was the
latest available at the time of my most recent purchase of computers. I
like XPsp1. No problems. I don't have time to waste spending hours on
several unsuccessful installs using the suggestions offered by the MVP's.
I
have nothing against the MVP's, but I do have an issue with MS. They do
have a monopoly on operating systems. I want to get something reliable
off
the shelf. I don't have time to learn Linux. In their zeal to conform
with
their business model, MS releases OS upgrades/updates prematurely. If
there
was a viable competitor at this point in time I would switch from MS to a
vendor that was more sensitive to there customers. Dealing with MS is
like
fighting city hall.
The customer is always right is the philosophy that a business owner
should
follow. Unfortunately, when there is a monopoly the business owner can
thumb his nose at the customers.
I am happy for the fortunate ones that updated to XPSp2 without
difficulties. I have no ill will toward the loyal MS soldiers that are
"MVP's". I just would like MS to service the vast number of unfortunate
customers that cannot successfully upgrade to XPSp2 with a free new
version
of XP that includes SP2 that is not just an upgrade. A response such as
"check out these web-sites for sp2 info is not enough. I paid for a
product
and I expect quality service. MS makes a bundle of money. They can
return
some of there profits to help the loyal, but dissatisfied customers that
fell through the upgrade cracks.

Michael Israel, M.D.

Take two aspirin and call my office in the morning for an appointment.

 

[Malke]

That it is, I just discovered it and it is on my website.
Another option for those to timid to install SP-2 all by themselves.

That was an interesting link. Thanks. It confirms my own experience as
the tech putting SP2 on clients' systems. And actually $80 is just
about right for putting SP2 on a *clean* system. Naturally, I can't
compete with CompUSA and do this for free (the children won't
understand about no food in the house), but I have had quite a few
clients bring me their machines to clean up and update. For my clients
who are busy professionals, it is a better use of their time and money
to pay someone else to do the work. I make less an hour than a doctor,
that's for sure.

As for the original poster's comments, I must say that Shenan Stanley
answered eloquently. It *is* all about choice. One *always* has a
choice. Since the OP indicated he was a doctor, why not pay someone to
install SP2 or set him up with Linux? We have lots of database software
here on The Dark Side. As for me being an "MS soldier", I really had to
laugh at that one. It actually does amaze me that I was given the award
(and I like having it a lot) since in all the years that I've been
posting and helping on MS newsgroups I've never hidden my headers.

Cheers,

Malke

 

[Vinnie Barbarino]

I didn't fine the option you were talking about.

That it is, I just discovered it and it is on my website.
Another option for those to timid to install SP-2 all by themselves.

 

[Jupiter Jones [MVP]]

What was meant was now people can take their computers to a computer
store to have SP-2 installed for them at no charge.
However I am sure this is not available everywhere, but this is a
great additional benefit for some.

 

[Vinnie Barbarino]

I live in a rural area. It is a 2 hour drive to Comp USA. I don't mind
paying for a qualified professional to install SP2 for me. The point that I
was trying to make (I apologize if my frustrations offended anyone) is that
am computer literate but have not been able to install this update. MS
makes software that the most unseasoned, inexperience computer user can
utilize. Unfortunately this service pack is not one of them. I do not have
a practical choice in what OS to use. My apps are MS office pro and
proprietary sw connected to MS SQL server. I spoke to a Dell support rep
and he unofficially discouraged me in attempting to install SP2 at this
time. He advised to wait until MS has more experience in this.

 

[R. McCarty]

That Tech Support individual is just trying to avoid more calls, &
the more experience line is just typical Conference Room BS. Dell
doesn't like SP2 for one reason it runs up their Support costs.

For you to successfully get SP2 going might take two things. One,
I really promote and believe in Images. If you value your data & XP
setup a Imaging program can provide nearly 100% coverage against
data loss. I use a somewhat older version of "Drive Image", but if you
check postings here, there are lots of choices. (Ghost, True Image...)

Likely your best approach is to run the Service Pack from Safe Mode.
This provides a "Clean Environment" where no 3rd party drivers or
applications will be running. Installing a Service Pack doesn't have to
be done by a "Professional" these days that term is used too loosely
anyway. If you have a verified Backup and do the install from Safe
mode, I'll bet you'll soon be running XP/SP2.

 

[Jupiter Jones [MVP]]

Vinnie;
The advice from the Dell tech was incomplete at best and possibly
incompetent.
The SP-2 available will be the same as SP-2 available in a year.
If all that is done is wait, that is time wasted.
And that is where the advice of the Dell tech failed miserably.

Instead use the time to research hardware and software compatibility:
http://www3.telus.net/dandemar/xpsp2.htm
Then the Service pack Installation Checklist can help:
http://www3.telus.net/dandemar/spackins.htm

Unfortunately in your case, it may be best to hire someone, just make
sure they really know what they are doing.

 

[Shenan Stanley]

I live in a rural area. It is a 2 hour drive to Comp USA. I don't
mind paying for a qualified professional to install SP2 for me. The
point that I was trying to make (I apologize if my frustrations
offended anyone) is that am computer literate but have not been able
to install this update. MS makes software that the most unseasoned,
inexperience computer user can utilize. Unfortunately this service
pack is not one of them. I do not have a practical choice in what OS
to use. My apps are MS office pro and proprietary sw connected to MS
SQL server. I spoke to a Dell support rep and he unofficially
discouraged me in attempting to install SP2 at this time. He advised
to wait until MS has more experience in this.

I have to ask, and I think you should ask this yourself...

What is meant by "wait until MS has more experience in this.."?

This is NOT Microsoft's first Service Pack. Nothing that is going on is
new.
My rule use to be to AVOID the even numbered service packs. They went bad.
That was in the NT days.. It ended with SP6a, so I decided that was "odd".
heh

The problems arising now are a new twist on problems that arise with every
major upgrade/patch like this. One person has Windows XP Professional, has
never installed SP1 for whatever reason and runs Office 2003. Another has a
fully patched Windows system, but runs Office 97 and Quickbooks '98. Their
issues and needs will be different. And every time a new patch comes out,
this is what happens. Big stink, big stink.. then a few months down the
road when everyone who doesn't have the SP installed starts catching the
latest trojan because of it, the tide turns and the big stink turns into the
big question (why didn't you already patch?!)

Dell is doing the classic "CYA" move - or more accurately, the technician
you are speaking with is. If no one installs it, no one gets experience
with it, nothing gets solved. Microsoft is not going to go out and try it
with every known configuration. I have it installed on systems with more
than 100 different applications (not small ones either, AutoCAD, 3D Studio
MAX, SPSS, SAS, Office, Matlab, Photoshop, Illustrator, Pagemaker,
home-grown and dozens of others..) and systems with just Office installed
and have seen mainly only problems with certain applications (yay EndNote
8.. Yeah - it's GREAT that 6 and 7 still work, I have v 8 installed on 1200+
machines.. what's with that?) Microsoft has all the experience they are
going to get (for all intents and purposes) and beyond fixing some minor
issues they definitively caused and/or discovering they uncovered existing
problems with the extra security added in or that people truly are not ready
for what they are asking for (more security) - I think we are just about as
good as it gets on "improving SP2" now (or more accurately, answering the
questions spurred by SP2 installs.) In not too long, it will have been two
months.

Again with the "practical choice", at least now it is choice and not
something that was forced upon anyone. It's a choice. Perhaps a tough one,
but a choice. You could redo your database and its interface in MySQL/PHP
and make it work, likely. (The choice of database/language is random,
choose your own. heh)

I understand not everyone can take their computer to someone to install SP2.
I also understand that many people feel that the patches should be
idiot-proofed. One thing you learn in life - nothing is idiot-proof, and
sometimes (more often than not), you are the idiot causing your own
problems. heh

There are problems with the service pack. Problems the end-customers (in
some cases, no matter their level of computer expertise) will not be able to
solve. Let's take out that 2.5% to 5% of the people installing XP SP2 (I'm
guestimating, want to go 10%?) and see that the majority (a VAST majority)
just need to do a little preparation or think ahead a step or two. Many
assume that if their computer comes on, it works. Does it take time to
prepare.. yeah. Could this be why many people don't? Yeah - the computer
to them is a wrench. They don't even oil that wrench, they just buy a new
one when it is left out in the rain too long. Look at that - a conscience
choice not to care! *e-grin*

You haven't offended me, just trying to remain like the Swiss. mmmm
Chocolate.

 

[Guest]

My sentiments exactly! She wasted alot of time airing her view here eh?