Hardware problem

[Maurice Batey]

Looking for a good newsgroup to help me diagnose a weird hardware problem with
my 3-year old desktop.

If this is not it, could someone recommend one, please?

(Inconsistent symptoms, but machine always locks up within 4 minutes of cold
power up, regardless of which operating system is being booted.
In fact, on one occasion it locked up in the middle of entering the BIOS
password. Commencement of problem coincided with starting to use broadband
(connected to router by ethernet cable). Tried replacing use of Realtek ethernet
controller with Intel Gigabit PCI ethernet card. No problem if keep PC
switched on permanently)

 

[Grinder]

Looking for a good newsgroup to help me diagnose a weird hardware problem with
my 3-year old desktop.

If this is not it, could someone recommend one, please?

alt.comp.hardware is a good choice.

(Inconsistent symptoms, but machine always locks up within 4 minutes of cold
power up, regardless of which operating system is being booted.
In fact, on one occasion it locked up in the middle of entering the BIOS
password. Commencement of problem coincided with starting to use broadband
(connected to router by ethernet cable). Tried replacing use of Realtek ethernet
controller with Intel Gigabit PCI ethernet card. No problem if keep PC
switched on permanently)

I've having trouble reconciling "always locks up within 4 minutes of
cold power up" and "no problem if keep PC switch on permanently."
Perhaps you can elaborate on the second statement, as it seems to
conflict with the first.

At any rate, it sounds like you might have a heat problem. I would
recommend:

1) Carefully clean the dust out of your system, especially from the
processor heat sink, graphics card, fans and vents.

2) Reduce your system to the simplest functional state. Disconnect
extra hard drives, pull unnecessary cards (like the network card you
mention), and disconnect all USB devices (with the exception of your
mouse and keyboard.)

3) Place the PC in an area with adequate ventilation -- don't leave it
jammed under a desk. Open up the case and train a fan, on a moderate to
strong setting, on the PC's interior.

If your system becomes stable, start adding bits back in. Make sure you
test for long enough to see if the problem has returned. This practice
may isolate a component that is causing you your problem.

 

[Noozer]

(Inconsistent symptoms, but machine always locks up within 4 minutes of
I would suspect a faulty PSU, or failing capacitors on your mainboard.

 

[kony]

Looking for a good newsgroup to help me diagnose a weird hardware problem with
my 3-year old desktop.

If this is not it, could someone recommend one, please?

(Inconsistent symptoms, but machine always locks up within 4 minutes of cold
power up, regardless of which operating system is being booted.
In fact, on one occasion it locked up in the middle of entering the BIOS
password. Commencement of problem coincided with starting to use broadband
(connected to router by ethernet cable).

Tried replacing use of Realtek ethernet
controller with Intel Gigabit PCI ethernet card. No problem if keep PC
switched on permanently)

Does this mean that the problem exhibited, changed somewhat
after swapping in a different ethernet card?


As Grinder pointed out, you either don't have it lock up
within 4 minutes or it does have problems if it's switched
on permanently, unless by switched on you mean the main AC
power to the PSU, instead of the whole system being fully
turned on.

Since the problem seems to be so repeatable, pull out the
ethernet card (while AC power is unplugged of course).

It would be good to get a concise but complete description
of all major components, including the motherboard make,
model, wattage, and it's rated current on 12V rail.

Open the case if you hadn't already and look for the
possibility of dislodged cables, cards, connectors, etc.
Check for vented capacitors.

Check the PSU voltages, with a multimeter if you have one,
otherwise at least in the bios hardware/health monitor page.

Boot, run memtest86+ for a few hours (overnight is ideal).
If there are errors, no point in looking elsewhere until
these errors are addressed (next focus on things more likely
to cause memory errors).

 

[Maurice Batey]

I've having trouble reconciling "always locks up within 4 minutes of
cold power up" and "no problem if keep PC switch on permanently."
Perhaps you can elaborate on the second statement, as it seems to
conflict with the first.

Prior to starting to use broadband on July 25th there was no lockup problem.

(The Realtek ethernet Gigabit controller had been BIOS disabled for over 2
years.)

From Day 1 of using broadband (i.e. ethernet controller enabled) the PC
locked up, in a quite variable way and in various situations (the most
surprising being during entry of the BIOS password, and the most bizarre when
the screen blanked out, and the only action was continual attempts to access
the (empty) floppy disk drive).

Suspicion naturally fell on the ethernet controller (BIOS chip), so I
disabled it; no lockups occurred.. SO - putting 2 and 2 together (making 5 in
this case...) I kept it disabled and added an Intel Gigabit ethernet PCI card.

For 2 days (powering down overnight) I had no lockups, but on the 3rd day I
had it in spades, resulting in my Linux kernel being corrupted. (Fortuitously I
had taken a complete disk image backup the evening before, so was soon back in
business!)

Because the lockups always occurred within 5 minutes of cold power up, I
assumed there was some kind of cold-start problem - the opposite of overheating.

So I left the m/c running WinXP when not in use (e.g. overnight), with all
other gear powered off (including router).

It has now been continusously running for 6 days, wuth no sign of lockup.

It having been suggested by a friend (and having powered the PC down
overnight) today I unplugged and replugged all the power connections in the PC
(apart from the big one plugged into the motherboard, which I simply could not
get out).

After powering up from cold it has been running normally (WinXP, Kubuntu,
Mandriva) - but then it did for 2 days after installing the ethernet PCI card!

The strange thing about the cold power-up lockups is that - on rebooting, the
system then runs perfectly - for days.

So I don't see how it can be an overheating or battery problem.

(The variable symptoms remind me of buffer overruns in the old days.)

PC details:

Intel Pentium 4.3Ghz with twin 120Gb Maxtor IDE drives
Intel 865PE chipset motherboard with dual-channel DDR
1 GB ultra fast DDR RAM
Radeon 9600 128Mb VGA/DVI-I/TV-out

Many thanks for various responses - much appreciated...

 

[Paul]

Prior to starting to use broadband on July 25th there was no lockup problem.

(The Realtek ethernet Gigabit controller had been BIOS disabled for over 2
years.)

From Day 1 of using broadband (i.e. ethernet controller enabled) the PC
locked up, in a quite variable way and in various situations (the most
surprising being during entry of the BIOS password, and the most bizarre when
the screen blanked out, and the only action was continual attempts to access
the (empty) floppy disk drive).

Suspicion naturally fell on the ethernet controller (BIOS chip), so I
disabled it; no lockups occurred.. SO - putting 2 and 2 together (making 5 in
this case...) I kept it disabled and added an Intel Gigabit ethernet PCI card.

For 2 days (powering down overnight) I had no lockups, but on the 3rd day I
had it in spades, resulting in my Linux kernel being corrupted. (Fortuitously I
had taken a complete disk image backup the evening before, so was soon back in
business!)

Because the lockups always occurred within 5 minutes of cold power up, I
assumed there was some kind of cold-start problem - the opposite of overheating.

So I left the m/c running WinXP when not in use (e.g. overnight), with all
other gear powered off (including router).

It has now been continusously running for 6 days, wuth no sign of lockup.

It having been suggested by a friend (and having powered the PC down
overnight) today I unplugged and replugged all the power connections in the PC
(apart from the big one plugged into the motherboard, which I simply could not
get out).

After powering up from cold it has been running normally (WinXP, Kubuntu,
Mandriva) - but then it did for 2 days after installing the ethernet PCI card!

The strange thing about the cold power-up lockups is that - on rebooting, the
system then runs perfectly - for days.

So I don't see how it can be an overheating or battery problem.

(The variable symptoms remind me of buffer overruns in the old days.)

PC details:

Intel Pentium 4.3Ghz with twin 120Gb Maxtor IDE drives
Intel 865PE chipset motherboard with dual-channel DDR
1 GB ultra fast DDR RAM
Radeon 9600 128Mb VGA/DVI-I/TV-out

Many thanks for various responses - much appreciated...

When you say you couldn't remove the main connector - there is a
nylon latch on the body of the connector. You have to depress
the latch, so that you can pull up on the connector.

If, after depressing the latch, the connector will not move,
the two parts could be welded together. That could happen as a
result of something melting, corroding, or deforming at the
connector. If that were the case, the problem could be weak
power, due to the connector being damaged.

It is probably just the latch

Paul

 

[Maurice Batey]

P,S, I have run memtest (1.65), and also the Maxtor diagnostic CD (on both
drives).

No faults found.

 

[Ken Maltby]

I would suspect a faulty PSU, or failing capacitors on your mainboard.

Have you and "Grinder" been replaced by "kony" clones?

Not an overheating problem.

LoL;
Ken

 

[Ken Maltby]

Prior to starting to use broadband on July 25th there was no lockup
problem.

(The Realtek ethernet Gigabit controller had been BIOS disabled for over
2
years.)

From Day 1 of using broadband (i.e. ethernet controller enabled) the PC
locked up, in a quite variable way and in various situations (the most
surprising being during entry of the BIOS password, and the most bizarre
when
the screen blanked out, and the only action was continual attempts to
access
the (empty) floppy disk drive).

Suspicion naturally fell on the ethernet controller (BIOS chip), so I
disabled it; no lockups occurred.. SO - putting 2 and 2 together (making 5
in
this case...) I kept it disabled and added an Intel Gigabit ethernet PCI
card.

For 2 days (powering down overnight) I had no lockups, but on the 3rd day
I
had it in spades, resulting in my Linux kernel being corrupted.
(Fortuitously I
had taken a complete disk image backup the evening before, so was soon
back in
business!)

Because the lockups always occurred within 5 minutes of cold power up, I
assumed there was some kind of cold-start problem - the opposite of
overheating.

So I left the m/c running WinXP when not in use (e.g. overnight), with
all
other gear powered off (including router).

It has now been continusously running for 6 days, wuth no sign of lockup.

It having been suggested by a friend (and having powered the PC down
overnight) today I unplugged and replugged all the power connections in
the PC
(apart from the big one plugged into the motherboard, which I simply could
not
get out).

After powering up from cold it has been running normally (WinXP, Kubuntu,
Mandriva) - but then it did for 2 days after installing the ethernet PCI
card!

The strange thing about the cold power-up lockups is that - on rebooting,
the
system then runs perfectly - for days.

So I don't see how it can be an overheating or battery problem.

(The variable symptoms remind me of buffer overruns in the old days.)

PC details:

Intel Pentium 4.3Ghz with twin 120Gb Maxtor IDE drives
Intel 865PE chipset motherboard with dual-channel DDR
1 GB ultra fast DDR RAM
Radeon 9600 128Mb VGA/DVI-I/TV-out

Many thanks for various responses - much appreciated...

This may be a long shot, but try cleaning up any startup
related software/OS drivers. Especially keyboard related,
and in your case anything that might be connected to,
wake on LAN, or such.

Luck;
Ken

 

[Ken Maltby]

This may be a long shot, but try cleaning up any startup
related software/OS drivers. Especially keyboard related,
and in your case anything that might be connected to,
wake on LAN, or such.

Luck;
Ken

P.S. Try replacing your keyboard, if you have another on
hand; especially if you are using a keyboard with a lot of
added function keys. ( I know, it sounds odd; but I have
one system that had very similar odd power up problems
and after much hair loss it seems to have been keyboard
related.)

 

[Noozer]

This may be a long shot, but try cleaning up any startup

related software/OS drivers. Especially keyboard related,
and in your case anything that might be connected to,
wake on LAN, or such.

How could ANY software/OS cause the PC to freeze during POST?

 

[Maurice Batey]

startup related software/OS drivers.

In the BIOS? Wouldn't know where to start looking.

Problem is not operating system related, as one lockup occurred during entry
of BIOS password.

 

[Maurice Batey]

Try replacing your keyboard

Even if most lockups occurred during mouse-only op's?

 

[Ken Maltby]

Even if most lockups occurred during mouse-only op's?

I must have missed where you mentioned that, earlier.

It wouldn't matter anyway. There are checks and options
that involve startup that both the BIOS and the OS do
with the keyboard interface. These are mostly hardware
checks but they are controlled by both firmware (CMOS)
and software. There are similar startup related issues
for the Ethernet adapters.

Luck;
Ken

 

[Ken Maltby]

How could ANY software/OS cause the PC to freeze during POST?

The OP was that it was "Inconsistent" and happening
"within 4 min. of cold power up" and "on ONE occasion
it locked up in the middle of entering the BIOS password".

But to answer -your- question; in the same way a boot
block virus works. There is more interaction possible
than you appear to be aware of. Also; remember that
"Press F6 to load" RAID software drivers during XP
install? , there are a number of startup functions after
POST. Failure of some of them would be occurring
during the 4 min mentioned.

Oh, and a limited keyboard check is part of POST.
If the firmware inside an enhanced keyboard were to
be damaged by some driver setting, it could cause a
malfunction, perhaps one that causes locks up during
startup.

And lastly, I suggest you research the definition of the
term "Long Shot".

Luck;
Ken

 

[Ken Maltby]

In the BIOS? Wouldn't know where to start looking.

Problem is not operating system related, as one lockup occurred during
entry
of BIOS password.

Well you could start with any BIOS startup options
like "Wake on LAN", perhaps other power management
settings, as well.

Placing a single or unrepeated/unrepeatable occurrence
into the differential should be as an unproved variable.
The OS can apply hardware drivers that can effect
firmware that can effect or be used by the BIOS. Not
to mention the possibility of effecting the BIOS itself.

Look, you can totally ignore my post, no skin off my
nose. I was just relating what I found to be the cause
in a particularly aggravating and counter to routine
troubleshooting experience, that involved a startup
problem. I ran through 3 MB and 3 Power Supplies
as well as 2 different Antec cases (and no case) and
only stumbled across the keyboard connection by
accident.

Luck;
Ken

 

[kony]

Have you and "Grinder" been replaced by "kony" clones?

Not an overheating problem.

You're welcome to find all the posts where I suggested
overheating as the most likely problem, or do you realize
you'd appear as a troll when you couldn't come up with
anything recent except for that router debate and something
directly related like a fan failing?

 

[kony]

The OP was that it was "Inconsistent" and happening
"within 4 min. of cold power up" and "on ONE occasion
it locked up in the middle of entering the BIOS password".

But to answer -your- question; in the same way a boot
block virus works. There is more interaction possible
than you appear to be aware of.

There is less interaction possible than /you/ appear to be
aware of. A boot block virus isn't running until the system
attempts to boot from that drive. This system is showing
instability prior to that point, even locking up entering
the bios menus so Noozer is correct.

There's not any point thinking about software problems until
the hardware stability is regained.

Cold power up problems tend to be either power supply, flaky
motherboard capacitors, a bad mechanical connection or a PCB
problem such as bad solder joints or board cracks, though
the former two are a lot more common than the latter two.

 

[CBFalconer]

P,S, I have run memtest (1.65), and also the Maxtor diagnostic CD
(on both drives). No faults found.

So? What does this have to do with what?

 

[Ken Maltby]

There is less interaction possible than /you/ appear to be
aware of. A boot block virus isn't running until the system
attempts to boot from that drive.

Which occurs right after the POST, well within the 4min.
mentioned.

You are aware that there are programs that even rewrite
the BIOS from XP? If interaction at the level of totally
rewriting the BIOS are possible, why do you find it so hard
to understand that some of the data that the BIOS must
use can also be changed, is it just because I'm the one
pointing it out?

But I would also direct you to any definition of the term
"Long Shot". This is based on an actual startup problem
I had with one system of mine, and it did turn out to be
caused by a keyboard driver problem. It would lock
things up so that it wouldn't even POST. Pressing the
Power Button or shorting the pins wouldn't start the sys,
even with the little green light on the MB glowing.

I have no way of knowing if this has anything to do
with the OP's problem, but it is possible. It is a long
shot worth the trouble of plugging in a different simple
keyboard. (One not designed to work with whatever
enhanced drivers there may be on the problem sys.)

Luck;
Ken