Hardcore gamer is little upset.

[Ryan Atici]

The PCI-Express might be the future technology to replace AGP video card
slot in the future. Having said that, PCI-Express doesn't offer any
advantage or improvement at this moment in time over AGP video cards for
now. Maybe six months or a year from now, the new technology will fully take
advantage of the new PCI-Express video card and make the PCI-Express video
cards superior over AGP video cards, but for now, that's not the case.



If you're a hardcore gamer and only want the best of the best performance at
this moment in time from your video card, you will go for an AGP slot video
card. Having said all that, I am disappointed to see that the latest ASUS
motherboard "A8N-SLI Deluxe" named to be a hardcore gamer "motherboard"
doesn't have an AGP video card slot when indeed PCI-Express video card is
not yet as good as an AGP slot video card in performance. I don't get
it...!?!



The question is; don't you think it is way premature to replace AGP video
card slot in a latest ASUS motherboard with PCI-Express when indeed
PCI-Express is not even nearly as good as AGP video cards in performance?



I was gonna build a new computer using the newest and the best components as
available today, but having seen that the latest ASUS motherboard release
(A8N-SLI Deluxe) doesn't support an AGP video card, I am little upset.

 

[pedro itriago]

The thing is that most of today pci express video cards are agp cards with
just the bus changed, not really pci express designed.

 

[Paul]

The PCI-Express might be the future technology to replace AGP video card
slot in the future. Having said that, PCI-Express doesn't offer any
advantage or improvement at this moment in time over AGP video cards for
now. Maybe six months or a year from now, the new technology will fully take
advantage of the new PCI-Express video card and make the PCI-Express video
cards superior over AGP video cards, but for now, that's not the case.

If you're a hardcore gamer and only want the best of the best performance at
this moment in time from your video card, you will go for an AGP slot video
card. Having said all that, I am disappointed to see that the latest ASUS
motherboard "A8N-SLI Deluxe" named to be a hardcore gamer "motherboard"
doesn't have an AGP video card slot when indeed PCI-Express video card is
not yet as good as an AGP slot video card in performance. I don't get
it...!?!

The question is; don't you think it is way premature to replace AGP video
card slot in a latest ASUS motherboard with PCI-Express when indeed
PCI-Express is not even nearly as good as AGP video cards in performance?

I was gonna build a new computer using the newest and the best components as
available today, but having seen that the latest ASUS motherboard release
(A8N-SLI Deluxe) doesn't support an AGP video card, I am little upset.

Tomshardware has some video charts for the latest PCI Express cards.
You can compare them to the AGP charts:

http://graphics.tomshardware.com/graphic/20041222/index.html (PCI-E)
http://graphics.tomshardware.com/graphic/20041004/index.html (AGP)

Compare "Far Cry" benchmarks:
http://graphics.tomshardware.com/graphic/20041222/vga_charts-07.html
http://graphics.tomshardware.com/graphic/20041004/vga_charts-09.html

The AGP X800 XT PE does 91.6 FPS (R420 520/1120 256-bit 16x1)
The PCI-E X800 XT PE does 111.0 FPS (R423 256MB 520/1120 256-bit 16)

The AGP 6800U does 86.0 FPS (NV40 400/1100 256-bit 16x1)
The PCI-E 6800U does 102.9 FPS (NV45 256MB 400/1100 256-bit 16)
2x6800U SLI (PCI-E) does 135.2 FPS

The ATI cards don't use a separate PCI-E bridge chip, the
way that the Nvidia cards do. But the benchmark above suggests
the same speedup when comparing AGP to PCI-E version of the same
card. (Roughly 21% or so, give or take.)

In the examples above, the SLI configuration seems to be paying
off. AGP doesn't come in a two slot version, and you'd need to use
an AGP and a PCI version of some video card, in order to "SLI"
something on an AGP based platform. (And that is ignoring the
mechanical issues of how SLI cards connect together.)

Therefore, I'd say, buy the A8N-SLI, a decent processor, and
"game on!".

If you really want an AGP slot, I think you'll find the A8V rev2
is every bit as good, and with the AGP lock, you can do overclocking
experiments with it if you want.

The A8N-SLI was created to fill a need, and was introduced now
for a reason. If SLI sucked that bad, they wouldn't have bothered.

SLI is probably, in fact, more platform than most people need. What
little I've read, people seem to be more interested in SLI'ing
some 6600 class cards, rather than 6800U, which tells you that people
really aren't interested in "over-buying" their systems right now.

In any case, I think a SLI system will be a "winter gamer", as the
box will run too hot in summer to be usable for anything. It'll make
an excellent space heater (Anandtech measured system power dissipation
at 329W for 2x6800U).

http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2284&p=5

Paul

 

[ocbwilg]

The PCI-Express might be the future technology to replace AGP video card
slot in the future. Having said that, PCI-Express doesn't offer any
advantage or improvement at this moment in time over AGP video cards for
now. Maybe six months or a year from now, the new technology will fully
take advantage of the new PCI-Express video card and make the PCI-Express
video cards superior over AGP video cards, but for now, that's not the
case.



If you're a hardcore gamer and only want the best of the best performance
at this moment in time from your video card, you will go for an AGP slot
video card. Having said all that, I am disappointed to see that the latest
ASUS motherboard "A8N-SLI Deluxe" named to be a hardcore gamer
"motherboard" doesn't have an AGP video card slot when indeed PCI-Express
video card is not yet as good as an AGP slot video card in performance. I
don't get it...!?!



The question is; don't you think it is way premature to replace AGP video
card slot in a latest ASUS motherboard with PCI-Express when indeed
PCI-Express is not even nearly as good as AGP video cards in performance?



I was gonna build a new computer using the newest and the best components
as available today, but having seen that the latest ASUS motherboard
release (A8N-SLI Deluxe) doesn't support an AGP video card, I am little
upset.

They key here is the SLI. You probably weren't aware of it, but nVidia's
SLI implementation in the nForce4 chipset allows you to use two PCI Express
video cards together for much higher performance than a single card. While
a single AGP 6800 Ultra may be faster than a single PCI-E 6800 Ultra, a pair
of PCI-E 6800 Ultra cards is gonna spank any AGP config. I have seen
benchmarks indicating that in many cases a pair of $200 6600GT cards will be
faster than a single $500 6800 Ultra. That's why it's a hardocre gamers
motherboard.

 

[daytripper]

The PCI-Express might be the future technology to replace AGP video card
slot in the future. Having said that, PCI-Express doesn't offer any
advantage or improvement at this moment in time over AGP video cards for
now. Maybe six months or a year from now, the new technology will fully take
advantage of the new PCI-Express video card and make the PCI-Express video
cards superior over AGP video cards, but for now, that's not the case.
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

If you're a hardcore gamer and only want the best of the best performance at
this moment in time from your video card, you will go for an AGP slot video
card. Having said all that, I am disappointed to see that the latest ASUS
motherboard "A8N-SLI Deluxe" named to be a hardcore gamer "motherboard"
doesn't have an AGP video card slot when indeed PCI-Express video card is
not yet as good as an AGP slot video card in performance. I don't get
it...!?!

Wake up and smell the ozone.

For those of us who *don't* wish to keep using near-obsolete display hardware,
motherboard manufacturers have to make the first move.

The question is; don't you think it is way premature to replace AGP video
card slot in a latest ASUS motherboard with PCI-Express when indeed
PCI-Express is not even nearly as good as AGP video cards in performance?

Nope. Time marches on, and you are hanging on too tight to what is now "Just
Another Legacy Bus".

I was gonna build a new computer using the newest and the best components as
available today, but having seen that the latest ASUS motherboard release
(A8N-SLI Deluxe) doesn't support an AGP video card, I am little upset.

You are more than a little stupid...

 

[Robert Hancock]

The PCI-Express might be the future technology to replace AGP video card
slot in the future. Having said that, PCI-Express doesn't offer any
advantage or improvement at this moment in time over AGP video cards for
now. Maybe six months or a year from now, the new technology will fully
take advantage of the new PCI-Express video card and make the
PCI-Express video cards superior over AGP video cards, but for now,
that's not the case.



If you're a hardcore gamer and only want the best of the best
performance at this moment in time from your video card, you will go for
an AGP slot video card. Having said all that, I am disappointed to see
that the latest ASUS motherboard "A8N-SLI Deluxe" named to be a hardcore
gamer "motherboard" doesn't have an AGP video card slot when indeed
PCI-Express video card is not yet as good as an AGP slot video card in
performance. I don't get it...!?!



The question is; don't you think it is way premature to replace AGP
video card slot in a latest ASUS motherboard with PCI-Express when
indeed PCI-Express is not even nearly as good as AGP video cards in
performance?



I was gonna build a new computer using the newest and the best
components as available today, but having seen that the latest ASUS
motherboard release (A8N-SLI Deluxe) doesn't support an AGP video card,
I am little upset.

First of all, PCI Express is at least as fast, or faster, than AGP, in
all cases except where the card is using a bridge chip to translate AGP
into PCI Express, which has some performance hit. Secondly, the chipsets
currently available (and expected to be available) that support PCI
Express have no AGP support, so there is no way to have an AGP slot
without running it through the PCI bus and resulting in horrible
performance.

If you are building a new system, why on earth would you want to use AGP
in it?

 

[DCIFRTHS]

I am building a new system, and I just bought an AGP board. I don't play any
games, so this is not an issue for me. I also don't want to buy a new video
card, so an AGP system is fine for me....at least for now......

 

[Ryan Atici]

When you use high-end AGP video card, you don't need to resort to SLI
scheme, which is designed for PCI-Express video cards.

SLI is created because single PCI-Express video card is not as good as a
high-end AGP video card(period). That's why the motherboard manufacturers
think that pairing 2 PCI-Express video cards might allure *some* gamers into
buying PCI-Express video cards. This is all about alluring people into
buying 2 inferior video cards to create bigger sale. They had to create a
motherboard to pair up 2 PCI-Express video cards to compete against 1
high-end AGP video card by itself. Don't you get it? This is all about
suckering people into buying PCI-Express video cards in order to create a
new market for the new product when indeed new product is failed to compete
against an "old" AGP video card technology *for the time being*.

Far more superior performance could have been achieved by manufacturing a
motherboard by pairing up 2 high-end AGP video cards. The cost for 2
high-end video cards would have been a lot more expensive, but that's not
the case. It is not the cost but the performance is the problem here. The
bottom line is that the PCI-Express is not as good as any existing high-end
AGP video card. That's why the PCI-Express video card is paired to compete
against 1 high-end AGP video card. In that instance, two paired high-end
AGP video cards would have been far more superior to any 2 paired
PCI-Express video cards. I mean, how far are you gonna go with pairing
things up (4 PCI-Express video cards, or 6 PCI-Express video cards...?!?!)
until you come up with a decent PCI-Express video card that can challenge
and outdo in performance an AGP video card by itself without any pairing
scheme? Come on now! They highly overrate this new PCI-Express video card
technology but can't do anything better than resorting to a scheme.

 

[Ryan Atici]

You are more than a little stupid...



Let me repeat what I said because you're not smart enough to see the scheme.

When you use high-end AGP video card, you don't need to resort to SLI
scheme, which is designed for PCI-Express video cards.

SLI is created because single PCI-Express video card is not as good as a
high-end AGP video card(period). That's why the motherboard manufacturers
think that pairing 2 PCI-Express video cards might allure *some* gamers into
buying PCI-Express video cards. This is all about alluring people into
buying 2 inferior video cards to create bigger sale. They had to create a
motherboard to pair up 2 PCI-Express video cards to compete against 1
high-end AGP video card by itself. Don't you get it? This is all about
suckering people into buying PCI-Express video cards in order to create a
new market for the new product when indeed new product is failed to compete
against an "old" AGP video card technology *for the time being*.

Far more superior performance could have been achieved by manufacturing a
motherboard by pairing up 2 high-end AGP video cards. The cost for 2
high-end video cards would have been a lot more expensive, but that's not
the case. It is not the cost but the performance is the problem here. The
bottom line is that the PCI-Express is not as good as any existing high-end
AGP video card. That's why the PCI-Express video card is paired to compete
against 1 high-end AGP video card. In that instance, two paired high-end
AGP video cards would have been far more superior to any 2 paired
PCI-Express video cards. I mean, how far are you gonna go with pairing
things up (4 PCI-Express video cards, or 6 PCI-Express video cards...?!?!)
until you come up with a decent PCI-Express video card that can challenge
and outdo in performance an AGP video card by itself without any pairing
scheme? Come on now! They highly overrate this new PCI-Express video card
technology but can't do anything better than resorting to a scheme.

 

[daytripper]

Let me repeat what I said because you're not smart enough to see the scheme.

When you use high-end AGP video card, you don't need to resort to SLI
scheme, which is designed for PCI-Express video cards.

Good grief, you are clueless.

That you believe desktop gaming peecee video is bus-bandwidth limited reveals
your utter lack of education on the subject of desktop video.

Herewith starts the lesson.

First, get it through that large unsightly lump between your shoulders right
above where your neck should have been: SLI really had - and has - nothing to
do with the host bus transfer capabilities, nor does it have anything really
to do with multiple slots, other than the power consumption issues.

SLI was always about doubling graphics *engine* horsepower, not about bus
bandwidth. That the classic SLI used two PCI slots was a power solution having
everything to do with the 25W/slot PCI limit. Period.

A PCI Express 1.1 x16 slot offers twice the bandwidth of the maximum (and so
far still theoretical) incarnation of AGP (hint: AGP 3.0 is DOA) - which,
fwiw, provided WAY MORE bandwidth than you ever used to begin with.

Because you have huge chunks of fast, low-latency memory on your video card
for the graphics engine to play with. That memory looks a LOT faster and a LOT
quicker to the graphics engine than host memory does. With 128MB, 256MB or
even more on-board, right where the graphics engine can use it there's not
much need to hammer on host memory.

Finally, consider that at least one company has already announced a
dual-engine graphics adapter - an SLI-like beast on a single card. A PCI
Express card. They'll likely solve the power problem by using an internal
power cable connector. And users will be fragging your weak AGP ass all over
the gaming world. Enjoy ;-)

But you really ought to stop embarrassing yourself further...

/daytripper

 

[pedro itriago]

As I said before, the pci express cards made today still do not take full
advantage of...

 

[daytripper]

And you still don't understand why your comment is a non-sequitur...

 

[pedro itriago]

Maybe I should translate it to you then. If you want to see a big performance difference between an AGP card and a pci express card, you still have to wait a while.

The funniest thing is that is exactly the same thing you're saying. Do I have to re quote you?, here: "Finally, consider that at least one company has already announced a dual-engine graphics adapter - an SLI-like beast on a single card."

 

[daytripper]

Maybe I should translate it to you then. If you want to see a big performance difference between an AGP card and a pci express card, you still have to wait a while.

The funniest thing is that is exactly the same thing you're saying. Do I have to re quote you?, here: "Finally, consider that at least one company has already announced a dual-engine graphics adapter - an SLI-like beast on a single card."

One, that piece of crap newsreader your using isn't wrapping your posts
properly. Consider fixing it.

And two, you still don't get it...

/daytripper

 

[pedro itriago]

One, that piece of crap newsreader your using isn't wrapping your posts
properly. Consider fixing it.

Mine works perfecly, perhaps it's you who has to fix yours

And two, you still don't get it...

Actually, I got it some posts ago

 

[BobS]

One, that piece of crap newsreader your using isn't wrapping your posts
properly. Consider fixing it.

And two, you still don't get it...

/daytripper

Pedro is using Outlook Express, as I am, and it word wraps perfectly here as
well.

 

[Robert Hancock]

When you use high-end AGP video card, you don't need to resort to SLI
scheme, which is designed for PCI-Express video cards.

SLI is created because single PCI-Express video card is not as good as a
high-end AGP video card(period).

This is simply wrong.

That's why the motherboard
manufacturers think that pairing 2 PCI-Express video cards might allure
*some* gamers into buying PCI-Express video cards. This is all about
alluring people into buying 2 inferior video cards to create bigger
sale. They had to create a motherboard to pair up 2 PCI-Express video
cards to compete against 1 high-end AGP video card by itself. Don't you
get it? This is all about suckering people into buying PCI-Express video
cards in order to create a new market for the new product when indeed
new product is failed to compete against an "old" AGP video card
technology *for the time being*.

You are aware that an SLI setup with 2 PCI Express cards can deliver far
higher performance than a single AGP card?

 

[Jose M. Arnesto]

The PCI-Express might be the future technology to replace AGP video card
slot in the future. Having said that, PCI-Express doesn't offer any
advantage or improvement at this moment in time over AGP video cards for
now. Maybe six months or a year from now, the new technology will fully take
advantage of the new PCI-Express video card and make the PCI-Express video
cards superior over AGP video cards, but for now, that's not the case.

[..]

Tomshardware has some video charts for the latest PCI Express cards.
You can compare them to the AGP charts:

http://graphics.tomshardware.com/graphic/20041222/index.html (PCI-E)
http://graphics.tomshardware.com/graphic/20041004/index.html (AGP)

Compare "Far Cry" benchmarks:
http://graphics.tomshardware.com/graphic/20041222/vga_charts-07.html
http://graphics.tomshardware.com/graphic/20041004/vga_charts-09.html

The AGP X800 XT PE does 91.6 FPS (R420 520/1120 256-bit 16x1)
The PCI-E X800 XT PE does 111.0 FPS (R423 256MB 520/1120 256-bit 16)

The AGP 6800U does 86.0 FPS (NV40 400/1100 256-bit 16x1)
The PCI-E 6800U does 102.9 FPS (NV45 256MB 400/1100 256-bit 16)
2x6800U SLI (PCI-E) does 135.2 FPS

The ATI cards don't use a separate PCI-E bridge chip, the
way that the Nvidia cards do. But the benchmark above suggests
the same speedup when comparing AGP to PCI-E version of the same
card. (Roughly 21% or so, give or take.)
[..]

Next time you compare benchmarks, try to be at least a bit
fair. Those tests you are comparing (20041222 and 20041004) are using
different driver versions, different kind of memory and *one of them
is using an Intel Pentium 4 3.2 GHz and the other one an AMD Athlon64
4000+ *!!

If the test configurations had been the same, I would expect
both results (AGP vs PCIe) to be roughly equal.

Kind regards.