Gotta Question

[David Maynard]

Not really true, technology didn't change, the OEMs simply
chose not to include a floppy

The reason they could "simply chose not to include a floppy" 'now' vs
'then' is because technology changed sufficiently to enable that decision.

even though there were clearly
still uses for them.

There's "clearly still uses" for lots of things, like ISA slots, that don't
necessarily come in the base package, or at all. And the same argument goes
on during all technology changes in all fields with some arguing there are
'clearly still uses' for whatever is being phased out. And sometimes they
never go completely away. After all, you can still buy buggy whips.

I don't use my spoon much when dining, does that mean I'm ok
with not having one around? No.

A trailer hitch has many uses and is even essential for towing a trailer.
Does that mean every car must automatically come with one? No.

Your analogy fails because, while you try to color it with "don't use...
'much'," a spoon is used routinely and regularly in the normal course of
events. There is, however, no 'routine or regular' use for a floppy in a
modern pre-built computer, during the normal course of events, and while
there may still be 'many uses' for one, just as with a trailer hitch, that
doesn't mean it needs to, or should, be automatically provided.

 

[David Maynard]

BIOS changes that "include flash drives" are not a universal
replacement not only from a software support standpoint, but
also from an (actually working to boot USB devices)
standpoint.

I"m not a "fan" of floppy drives, put bluntly: they suck

Even so, there is no viable, universal replacement "yet".
Once that is the case it would be a waste to continue using
them. Same was the case with 5.25" floppies being displaced
by 3.5"





We were speaking about it in the context of a parts
omission.

There is nothing "yet" that replaces a floppy universally...
not even remotely close. Floppies are less reliable and
low capacity but even so, there is not yet anything else
that enjoys such universal support. If you like USB, fine,
it's not like you have to choose having ONLY one or the
other.


Nobody forces you to have a floppy in your system, but to do
without an $8 part then have to make alternate plans just to
compensate on a multi-hundred (if not thousand) dollar
system is rather pointless except in unique, special purpose
systems. I don't recall anyone suggesting to save
documents to floppy or try to make it a primary storage
device, rather for $8 it's one of those feature of a system
that make it more useful and versatile, which is the whole
point of a "PC" versus a closed appliance.

Except the vast unwashed majority of typical users don't have the slightest
idea what it could be used for.

 

[kony]

Except the vast unwashed majority of typical users don't have the slightest
idea what it could be used for.

Not so sure about that, if anything it's simplicity and
longevity has resulted in it being a most familiar storage
device even to the computer illiterate. To many people,
uploading files to a server for online access, using a
removable flash drive or syncing their portable device are
greek terms.

Granted that's not justification to use it if one has other
alternatives, but even so, there are quite a few
abilities/features/etc of a PC that most users have no idea
of how to apply.

 

[kony]

Your analogy fails because, while you try to color it with "don't use...
'much'," a spoon is used routinely and regularly in the normal course of
events.

So is a floppy for anyone with more than a basic Windows
experience. Do you have any systems with floppy drive?
What do you think displaces a floppy where one was used
previously?

We could try to argue about "windows" prevalence, in a sort
of "never need a floppy" OS, but it's quite questionable
whether the windows market is already saturated and
alternative OS (and thinner client) use will be growing at
far faster rate.

There is, however, no 'routine or regular' use for a floppy in a
modern pre-built computer, during the normal course of events,

Flashing a bios to a newer version "should" be a normal
course of events... unfortunately there aren't enough
safeguards in place to ensure that it is even more
trouble-free.

Floppies are still used in a normal course of events for
many users. People bring floppies to me with files on them.
Many people don't need to transport dozens or more MB of
data, only office files or similar, and while I wouldn't
choose a floppy for that purpose myself if I had an option,
that doesn't change the fact that people will and do use
floppies as their familiarity with them is high.

and while
there may still be 'many uses' for one, just as with a trailer hitch, that
doesn't mean it needs to, or should, be automatically provided.

.... same could be said about many computer features, but
then if you strip away too many then suddenly it's not
nearly so versatile a system, leading to what I mentioned
previously, a closed appliance instead. Not that there's
anything wrong with such a device, indeed such a VCR-like
system would suit many uses/users, but it moves towards the
opposite of the role a PC fills.

You're right though, that it doesn't necessarily mean a
floppy drive should automatically be present, but at the
same time it cannot be assumed that a floppy drive can
automatically be dismissed either. It's an $8 part
(actually less than that, but regardless...) in the context
of a multi-hundred dollar system. I don't know about you
but $8 one way or the other has never swayed my purchase of
any multi-hundred dollar product unless the two alternatives
were _exactly_ the same.

 

[David Maynard]

Not so sure about that, if anything it's simplicity and
longevity has resulted in it being a most familiar storage
device even to the computer illiterate.

That used to be true when they were forced to use one but no more. Now they
know how to insert a CD and they don't even have to know where or what the
'make it go' file is.

To many people,
uploading files to a server for online access, using a
removable flash drive or syncing their portable device are
greek terms.

They're certainly not going to put MP3s on their Ipod with a floppy when it
ain't got one. Nor get pictures from their typical camera either.

Granted that's not justification to use it if one has other
alternatives, but even so, there are quite a few
abilities/features/etc of a PC that most users have no idea
of how to apply.

You think they 'do it' somehow. I can't tell you how many times I've told
someone to simply copy a file over with a floppy and get "oh? How do you do
that?"

 

[David Maynard]

So is a floppy for anyone with more than a basic Windows
experience.

I don't know what you define as "more than a basic windows experience" but
whatever it is it isn't what the vast majority are doing.

Do you have any systems with floppy drive?
Sure.

What do you think displaces a floppy where one was used
previously?

For me or a user who buys a pre-built and who isn't going to be loading an
F6 driver nor dickering around with their partitions nor any of the other,
as you previously put it, 'geek' kind of things?

We could try to argue about "windows" prevalence, in a sort
of "never need a floppy" OS, but it's quite questionable
whether the windows market is already saturated and
alternative OS (and thinner client) use will be growing at
far faster rate.

That wasn't the topic. The topic was why so many of the pre-built Windows
machines didn't come with a floppy no more.

Flashing a bios to a newer version "should" be a normal
course of events...

That's debatable. If it ain't broke don't fix it.

unfortunately there aren't enough
safeguards in place to ensure that it is even more
trouble-free.

One good reason to not 'fix' it. But if they do they'll do it with the
newer windows flasher because it's 'simpler' to them.

Floppies are still used in a normal course of events for
many users. People bring floppies to me with files on them.
Many people don't need to transport dozens or more MB of
data, only office files or similar, and while I wouldn't
choose a floppy for that purpose myself if I had an option,
that doesn't change the fact that people will and do use
floppies as their familiarity with them is high.

And back to the trailer hitch analogy, I can point to a ton of people who
have one too, just as you know people who use the floppy, but that still
doesn't mean they should automatically come with a car. They are not the
majority of users.

... same could be said about many computer features, but
then if you strip away too many then suddenly it's not
nearly so versatile a system,

The difference is there's more than a rat's chance in hell those others
will be used by a reasonable number of users.

leading to what I mentioned
previously, a closed appliance instead. Not that there's
anything wrong with such a device, indeed such a VCR-like
system would suit many uses/users, but it moves towards the
opposite of the role a PC fills.

You're right though, that it doesn't necessarily mean a
floppy drive should automatically be present, but at the
same time it cannot be assumed that a floppy drive can
automatically be dismissed either. It's an $8 part
(actually less than that, but regardless...) in the context
of a multi-hundred dollar system. I don't know about you
but $8 one way or the other has never swayed my purchase of
any multi-hundred dollar product unless the two alternatives
were _exactly_ the same.

It doesn't work that way. You don't include an 8 dollar part, or a 10 cent
part, if there's no reasonable use for it. Otherwise you'd end up with a
million of them and then it isn't an 8 buck difference anymore (not to
mention my other post where I explained how it's more than 8 bucks anyway).