Fuses blow up


B

Bolooser55

Good day,

I came home yesterday and found out the electricity out. After checking
the electrical apparatus (taking them out and back in their plug, I
found out my comp was the culprit and would not fire up anymore anyway.

I took it to another room, did not change anything.

It has a MSI 848P mobo
P4 3Giga
Crucial ram (1,5 giga)
ATI 9600 pro
New HDD
Win XP hom
Not overclocked
330W Antec power supply

Can someone tell me where to start from ?

Thanks a lot
 
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M

Man-wai Chang

I came home yesterday and found out the electricity out. After checking
the electrical apparatus (taking them out and back in their plug, I
found out my comp was the culprit and would not fire up anymore anyway.
I took it to another room, did not change anything.

330W Antec power supply

You have a spare power supply?

--
@[email protected] Remain silent. Nothing from soldiers is real!
/ v \ Simplicity is Beauty! May the Force and farces be with you!
/( _ )\ (Fedora 15 i686) Linux 3.4.0
^ ^ 00:24:01 up 3 days 3:20 0 users load average: 1.04 0.50 0.35
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http://www.swd.gov.hk/tc/index/site_pubsvc/page_socsecu/sub_addressesa
 
R

Rodney Pont

330W Antec power supply

Can someone tell me where to start from ?

Replace the power cord and then the power supply. Bear in mind it's
possible the power supply destroyed everything in the computer when it
failed, unlikely but possible.
 
P

Paul

Bolooser55 said:
Good day,

I came home yesterday and found out the electricity out. After checking
the electrical apparatus (taking them out and back in their plug, I
found out my comp was the culprit and would not fire up anymore anyway.

I took it to another room, did not change anything.

It has a MSI 848P mobo
P4 3Giga
Crucial ram (1,5 giga)
ATI 9600 pro
New HDD
Win XP hom
Not overclocked
330W Antec power supply

Can someone tell me where to start from ?

Thanks a lot

If the Antec power supply is out of warranty, remove the four screws
holding the lid in place and visually inspect.

I had an Antec fail (Tru480), and it was leaking inside. I've had a second
Antec become defective (Tru330), where it put excessive noise on the AC
lines (enough noise, it causes my ADSL modem to drop the connection).
I can no longer use the second Antec.

In any case, look for the orange/brown goo shown in this photo.
There are four capacitors here leaking, and a fifth with a significant
bulge (caused by pressure). That's the kind of damage you're looking for.
My Tru480 looked like this kind of damage. The Tru330 was visually
clean, so some other kind of defect was present (unidentified).

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/84/PSU_Caps.jpg

On my Antec, just before failure, you'd hear a "sizzling" sound
for 30 seconds, when the power supply was cold and had just started
up. The "sizzling" would be coming from the damaged capacitors and
associated circuits. That gave me a warning that trouble was coming.
A few days after that, the processor started crashing at startup
(5V rail on supply bad). Two of the leaking capacitors were on +5V.

Power supplies do have a fuse inside, but if it blows, there's really
no point in replacing it. At least, unless you repaired the damage
that caused the fuse to blow in the first place. The fuse in a power
supply is likely a Slo-blow type, and only a real electrical fault
should cause it to "tip over".

For a power supply to start, the supervisory rail has to be working.
The power supply is split in two pieces. One piece provides initial
power (+5VSB and anything else needed). And the supply cannot start
the main section operating, unless +5VSB is available to run the
motherboard logic that delivers PS_ON# signal over the main cable.

If you want an example of a power supply schematic, my favorite is this.
The "second power supply" section, shows the bit that provides enough
power to make the thing start-able. The copious usage of transformers,
is to isolate you from the wall current ("Hi-pot" test at factory
helps prove there's no shock path).

http://www.pavouk.org/hw/en_atxps.html

Paul
 
M

Man-wai Chang

330W Antec power supply
You have a spare power supply?

BTW, maybe it's just a roach... :)

--
@[email protected] Remain silent. Nothing from soldiers is real!
/ v \ Simplicity is Beauty! May the Force and farces be with you!
/( _ )\ (Fedora 15 i686) Linux 3.4.0
^ ^ 00:54:02 up 3 days 3:50 0 users load average: 0.30 0.32 0.31
ä¸å€Ÿè²¸! ä¸è©é¨™! ä¸æ´äº¤! ä¸æ‰“交! ä¸æ‰“劫! ä¸è‡ªæ®º! è«‹è€ƒæ…®ç¶œæ´ (CSSA):
http://www.swd.gov.hk/tc/index/site_pubsvc/page_socsecu/sub_addressesa
 
F

Flasherly

Good day,

I came home yesterday and found out the electricity out. After checking
the electrical apparatus (taking them out and back in their plug, I
found out my comp was the culprit and would not fire up anymore anyway.

I took it to another room, did not change anything.

It has a MSI 848P mobo
P4 3Giga
Crucial ram (1,5 giga)
ATI 9600 pro
New HDD
Win XP hom
Not overclocked
330W Antec power supply

Can someone tell me where to start from ?

Thanks a lot

The beginning. After rebuilding it be careful of the MB. I had a MB
that would stress fail pretty much everything associated with it. A
couple of those would be enough send a regular computer builder into
some sort of oil-change camp for replacing the MB periodically. Built
a MSI based 775 last month when someone saw what I'm doing (they
didn't have the processing power for the DSP sound programs needed).
Been awhile but I used to like MSI. Anyway, found the MSI MB for $18
new and got rid of shitload of whatever spare parts I could find not
yet intended for a trash barrel. Like a 7000 series Radeon and
Seasnake 200G. I also run that 9600, btw. Borderline sucks, heh,
don't it. . .
 
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B

Bolooser55

Le 29/05/2012 19:20, Flasherly a écrit :
The beginning. After rebuilding it be careful of the MB. I had a MB
that would stress fail pretty much everything associated with it. A
couple of those would be enough send a regular computer builder into
some sort of oil-change camp for replacing the MB periodically. Built
a MSI based 775 last month when someone saw what I'm doing (they
didn't have the processing power for the DSP sound programs needed).
Been awhile but I used to like MSI. Anyway, found the MSI MB for $18
new and got rid of shitload of whatever spare parts I could find not
yet intended for a trash barrel. Like a 7000 series Radeon and
Seasnake 200G. I also run that 9600, btw. Borderline sucks, heh,
don't it. . .

OK thanks a lot everyone, specially Paul for the detailed procedures. I
am going to look into it tomorrow.
I have been having a "hissing" sound on startup and thought it came from
the HD not the Antec. Whatever.
Thanks again
 
C

Chris S.

Bolooser55 said:
Le 29/05/2012 19:20, Flasherly a écrit :

OK thanks a lot everyone, specially Paul for the detailed procedures. I am
going to look into it tomorrow.
I have been having a "hissing" sound on startup and thought it came from
the HD not the Antec. Whatever.
Thanks again

Clearly the Power Supply.

Chris
 
K

KR

Good day,

I came home yesterday and found out the electricity out. After checking
the electrical apparatus (taking them out and back in their plug, I
found out my comp was the culprit and would not fire up anymore anyway.

I took it to another room, did not change anything.

It has a MSI 848P mobo
P4 3Giga
Crucial ram (1,5 giga)
ATI 9600 pro
New HDD
Win XP hom
Not overclocked
330W Antec power supply

Can someone tell me where to start from ?

Thanks a lot


You can check the power point first by plugging in a light or
something
and making sure it has power first. If a house fuse went, other rooms
could be
on the same circuit (well here it is anyway).

If you narrow it down to the PC then
on the 20-24 pin plug from the power supply to the motherboard,
short the green wire to one of the black wires
(This process is normally done internally by the motherboard to get
the power
supply to turn on.) This is all low voltage. you can use a short
length of wire or
straightened out paper clip to do this. Make sure the power supply
is plugged in and switched on at the time.

If the power supply is still dead (fan wont turn etc) then it needs
replacement.

If the power supply starts up (fan turns, can hear hard drive start up
etc)
but the comp still won't boot, it might be the motherboard (this has
happened
before after a power failure).

I have had similar problems in the past, and on occasion this will
make it work and usually will work fine after that.
 
L

Loren Pechtel

Good day,

I came home yesterday and found out the electricity out. After checking
the electrical apparatus (taking them out and back in their plug, I
found out my comp was the culprit and would not fire up anymore anyway.

I took it to another room, did not change anything.

It has a MSI 848P mobo
P4 3Giga
Crucial ram (1,5 giga)
ATI 9600 pro
New HDD
Win XP hom
Not overclocked
330W Antec power supply

Can someone tell me where to start from ?

Thanks a lot

The power supply is almost certainly bad, anything past it that was
bad wouldn't short out the mains.

If you're lucky it only destroyed the supply. I have seen some cheap
power supplies blow up motherboards and even stuff plugged into them
that had no direct connection to the power supply.
 
L

larrymoencurly

Good day,

I came home yesterday and found out the electricity out. After checking
the electrical apparatus (taking them out and back in their plug, I
found out my comp was the culprit and would not fire up anymore anyway.

I took it to another room, did not change anything.

I'd expect a fault in the computer to make the fuse inside its power supplyto blow, well before the building's circuit breaker could react. Maybe there was a high voltage surge from lightning or a transformer blowing up. In some PSUs, the fuse is vertical and enclosed in dark grey heatshrink tubing, and some older Antecs have two of them.
 
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B

Bolooser55

It is the power supply. Took it out and several capacitors are swollen and
have something
looking like rust on it. I'll get a new one and put it in hoping it has not
destroyed my (almost)
new MSI mobo which I do like.
Have a nice evening

<[email protected]> a écrit dans le message de (e-mail address removed)...
Good day,

I came home yesterday and found out the electricity out. After checking
the electrical apparatus (taking them out and back in their plug, I
found out my comp was the culprit and would not fire up anymore anyway.

I took it to another room, did not change anything.

I'd expect a fault in the computer to make the fuse inside its power supply
to blow, well before the building's circuit breaker could react. Maybe
there was a high voltage surge from lightning or a transformer blowing up.
In some PSUs, the fuse is vertical and enclosed in dark grey heatshrink
tubing, and some older Antecs have two of them.
 
P

Paul

KR said:
yep, they are stuffed and need to be replaced. New power supply is
probably more economical though

They were defective in manufacturing. The Antec I had that failed in
that way, had very low service hours on it. It just has to sit for a
couple years, for the "rust" color to show up.

"A major cause of the plague of faulty capacitors was industrial espionage
in connection with the theft of an electrolyte formula. A researcher is
suspected of having taken, when moving from Japan to Taiwan, the secret
chemical composition of a new low-resistance, inexpensive, water-containing
electrolyte. The researcher subsequently tried to imitate this electrolyte
formula in Taiwan, to undersell the pricing of the Japanese manufacturers.
However, the secret formula had apparently been copied incompletely, and
it lacked important proprietary ingredients which were essential to the
long-term stability of the capacitors."

"With capacitors in which the internal pressure build-up was so great that
the capacitor case was already bulging but the vent had not opened yet,
then the pH value of the electrolyte could be measured. The electrolyte
of the faulty Taiwanese capacitors was alkaline with pH (7 < pH < 8).
Comparable Japanese capacitors on the other hand had an electrolyte with
a pH in the acidic range (pH ~ 4)."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor_plague

One motherboard company, had a class action lawsuit raised against it, in
order for the customers to get support for the bad caps on their motherboard.
And Dell had some trouble with particular computer models, where the failure
rate of motherboards was extremely high (almost guaranteed to go bad). I think
even IBM had equipment with the bad stuff in it. Not all companies were
affected to the same extent (as their purchasing habits differ).

And upon knowing that odds were good that Japanese products were not affected,
some got in the business of making capacitors with name brand Japanese labeling.
So counterfeiting was also a problem. So even if an electronics manufacturer
"tries to do the right thing", a purchasing agent could acquire counterfeits
instead of the real item.

Paul
 
K

KR

They were defective in manufacturing. The Antec I had that failed in
that way, had very low service hours on it. It just has to sit for a
couple years, for the "rust" color to show up.

   "A major cause of the plague of faulty capacitors was industrial espionage
    in connection with the theft of an electrolyte formula. A researcher is
    suspected of having taken, when moving from Japan to Taiwan, the secret
    chemical composition of a new low-resistance, inexpensive, water-containing
    electrolyte. The researcher subsequently tried to imitate this electrolyte
    formula in Taiwan, to undersell the pricing of the Japanese manufacturers.
    However, the secret formula had apparently been copied incompletely, and
    it lacked important proprietary ingredients which were essential to the
    long-term stability of the capacitors."

   "With capacitors in which the internal pressure build-up was so great that
    the capacitor case was already bulging but the vent had not opened yet,
    then the pH value of the electrolyte could be measured. The electrolyte
    of the faulty Taiwanese capacitors was alkaline with pH (7 < pH <8).
    Comparable Japanese capacitors on the other hand had an electrolyte with
    a pH in the acidic range (pH ~ 4)."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor_plague

One motherboard company, had a class action lawsuit raised against it, in
order for the customers to get support for the bad caps on their motherboard.
And Dell had some trouble with particular computer models, where the failure
rate of motherboards was extremely high (almost guaranteed to go bad). I think
even IBM had equipment with the bad stuff in it. Not all companies were
affected to the same extent (as their purchasing habits differ).

And upon knowing that odds were good that Japanese products were not affected,
some got in the business of making capacitors with name brand Japanese labeling.
So counterfeiting was also a problem. So even if an electronics manufacturer
"tries to do the right thing", a purchasing agent could acquire counterfeits
instead of the real item.

    Paul

I have seen Dell branded boards (approx 2007 model) with bulging caps.
Our local uni threw out dozens of these PC's, due to failures, many
still worked in spite of this and were not even 4 years old. Of course
bin divers grabbed them, and brought them in to "see if they work".
I have recently seen 450w AC Bel power supplies made 2007-8 fail
recenty with bad caps too, though we still use a quantity of their
older 450w Tru Power models, and they are fine. Last year sold a
quantity of used M2NPV-VM (circa 2005-6) and those caps were fine.
They had been in commercial use 12+ hours a day since new. I notice
the ones we replaced them with about 2 years back had "solid" type
caps that looked totally different construction. No failures out in
the field to date. Will be interesting to see how these go.

This week had an 2002-3 ASUS PC brought in, other than being full of
cockroaches, it had bad caps on power supply (generic brand) and
motherboard. Power supply was replaced, thing worked again but don't
know how long motherboard will last like this. I was surprised that
the old 40G WD IDE hard drive had lasted this long. Owner had bought
3 of these from the "recycle shop" at the rubbish dump for $150 each,
was using them in his business, (times are very tough locally right
now) and didnt want to pay anything to upgrade them, but was happy to
pay extra for urgent service of it at 8pm.
 
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P

Paul

KR said:
I have seen Dell branded boards (approx 2007 model) with bulging caps.
Our local uni threw out dozens of these PC's, due to failures, many
still worked in spite of this and were not even 4 years old. Of course
bin divers grabbed them, and brought them in to "see if they work".
I have recently seen 450w AC Bel power supplies made 2007-8 fail
recenty with bad caps too, though we still use a quantity of their
older 450w Tru Power models, and they are fine. Last year sold a
quantity of used M2NPV-VM (circa 2005-6) and those caps were fine.
They had been in commercial use 12+ hours a day since new. I notice
the ones we replaced them with about 2 years back had "solid" type
caps that looked totally different construction. No failures out in
the field to date. Will be interesting to see how these go.

This week had an 2002-3 ASUS PC brought in, other than being full of
cockroaches, it had bad caps on power supply (generic brand) and
motherboard. Power supply was replaced, thing worked again but don't
know how long motherboard will last like this. I was surprised that
the old 40G WD IDE hard drive had lasted this long. Owner had bought
3 of these from the "recycle shop" at the rubbish dump for $150 each,
was using them in his business, (times are very tough locally right
now) and didnt want to pay anything to upgrade them, but was happy to
pay extra for urgent service of it at 8pm.

There was a guy on the Internet, who was "recapping" motherboards full
time. But eventually he quit. I don't know if he got lead poisoning from
breathing solder fumes or what happened. I expect he was sick of his
new profession (the prices he was charging, made sending him stuff too
attractive). He actually made it into a picture in an IEEE magazine,
with dead caps strewn all over a chunk of sidewalk for effect (some
article they wrote about the bad caps thing). The people who went on to
replace him, charged about double what he was charging. But at those
prices, you're getting close to buying a new motherboard. I expect
any motherboard maker, could have recapped at either price, and been
quite happy with the profit. The difference would be, "Homey" would only
use decent caps when he did a board (because getting those
little bastards out of a motherboard is not easy - I tried even with
a vacuum desoldering station at work, and it's still not easy - it's
not a job you want to do twice).

Recapping a board is dead easy, if the motherboard designer did things
right. My first employer, the CAD tools were set to use "big" holes for
caps. You'd heat them up, and they'd "fall out". To make them stay put,
the cap leads had to be "formed" during pick and place. Other
manufacturers use "interference fit", which requires no lead bending,
but also makes maintenance painful. The "big hole" boards are a joy
to work on. The rework equipment at our factory, wasn't that fancy,
and with a design like that ("big hole"), any old soldering iron
would do.

Paul
 
L

larrymoencurly

<[email protected]> a �crit dans le message de
(e-mail address removed)...
On Tuesday, May 29, 2012 9:07:28 AM UTC-7, Bolooser55 wrote:

I came home yesterday and found out the electricity out. After checking
the electrical apparatus (taking them out and back in their plug, I
found out my comp was the culprit and would not fire up anymore anyway.

I took it to another room, did not change anything.


It is the power supply. Took it out and several capacitors are swollen and
have something
looking like rust on it. I'll get a new one and put it in hoping it has not
destroyed my (almost) new MSI mobo which I do like.

But that still doesn't explain why the household electricity turned off in the first place. Very likely, a surge turned off the AC and did just enough damage to make a PSU in marginal condition to finally fail for good.
 
L

larrymoencurly

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor_plague

One motherboard company, had a class action lawsuit raised against it, in
order for the customers to get support for the bad caps on their motherboard.
And Dell had some trouble with particular computer models, where the failure
rate of motherboards was extremely high (almost guaranteed to go bad). I think
even IBM had equipment with the bad stuff in it. Not all companies were
affected to the same extent (as their purchasing habits differ).

Ironically, those Dell computers weren't affected by the bad Chinese and Taiwanese capacitors because Dell instead used Japanese capacitors from one of the best capacitor companies, Nichicon, but Nichicon manufacturered a huge run of bad capacitors from about 2002-2004 that just managed to get into Dell, HP, and Apple computers. Apparently Dell knew about this problem well before it became public because around the CPU they switched to Rubycons.Unfortunately the 6 or so Nichicons remaining around the memory sockets still failed.
 
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K

KR

There was a guy on the Internet, who was "recapping" motherboards full
time. But eventually he quit. I don't know if he got lead poisoning from
breathing solder fumes or what happened. I expect he was sick of his
new profession (the prices he was charging, made sending him stuff too
attractive). He actually made it into a picture in an IEEE magazine,
with dead caps strewn all over a chunk of sidewalk for effect (some
article they wrote about the bad caps thing). The people who went on to
replace him, charged about double what he was charging. But at those
prices, you're getting close to buying a new motherboard. I expect
any motherboard maker, could have recapped at either price, and been
quite happy with the profit. The difference would be, "Homey" would only
use decent caps when he did a board (because getting those
little bastards out of a motherboard is not easy - I tried even with
a vacuum desoldering station at work, and it's still not easy - it's
not a job you want to do twice).

Recapping a board is dead easy, if the motherboard designer did things
right. My first employer, the CAD tools were set to use "big" holes for
caps. You'd heat them up, and they'd "fall out". To make them stay put,
the cap leads had to be "formed" during pick and place. Other
manufacturers use "interference fit", which requires no lead bending,
but also makes maintenance painful. The "big hole" boards are a joy
to work on. The rework equipment at our factory, wasn't that fancy,
and with a design like that ("big hole"), any old soldering iron
would do.

    Paul


I saw a review of a soldering iron made for that very purpose, it has
an element
of a couple of hundred watts, and as you put it on the joint, on a
multilayer board,
it turns up the wattage as needed to maintain the tip temperature to
overcome
the heatsinking effect of the ground planes in multi layer, or ground
planed boards, and keep the solder
molten enough to get the part out, and/or put the new one in.

According to the review, if you didn't take a long, long time to do
what you
had to do, it worked extremely well and didn't hurt the board.
 
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