Front Page design faults?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Keith Foster
  • Start date Start date
K

Keith Foster

I have two web sites that perform well in all browsers and look fine, yet
when I have the HTML looked at by say TIDY http://cgi.w3.org/cgi-bin/tidy it
reports hundreds of errors and it does the same for top ranked sites I have
viewed for years which I know work and perform fine?
Can anyone tell me why these 'tidys' insist that the sites are wrong when
they are not?
Does anyone know HTML checker that will tidy it up without me having to
spend hours learning HTML ?
Thanks Keith

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A lot of them are adhering to very exacting versions of the standards. That
doesn't work in the real world. To get things to look and behave properly,
you have to do a lot of tricks to get them to work in the various browsers.
I pretty much ignore a lot of the validators simply because most of their
complaints are frivolous, such as warning about incorrect meta tags, which
don't matter anyways and can be very useful for us as developers for our own
information. FP and most of the other modern WYSIWYG editors do an excellent
job of crafting compliant HTML that works.

Hope this helps
Mark Fitzpatrick
Microsoft MVP - FrontPage
 
Many thanks Mark- Now I feel much better! Keith

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Tidy reports these sites as wrong because they contain HTML that does not
conform with W3C recommendations. This does not mean the sites are broken -
sometimes you have to have non-conforming code to enable the page to be seen
in browsers that do not support the W3C recommendations!

As an example, I have pages on my site which work correctly in every browser
I have thrown at them, from Lynx 2.8 to Mozilla Firebird. These pages give
many warnings and one or two errors when checked with Tidy. Other pages
give no errors or warnings in Tidy, but are total disasters in some
browsers, particularly Opera4 and Opera6.

While complying with W3C recommendations is not a bad thing, your primary
aim should be to produce pages that can be viewed in as many different
browsers and systems as possible - and conforming to W3C is no guarantee of
success.

As for a HTML checker - you must have some knowledge of HTML, there are no
checkers I know of that will correct your code, but several that point out
errors.
 
Mark said:
A lot of them are adhering to very exacting versions of the standards. That
doesn't work in the real world. To get things to look and behave properly,
you have to do a lot of tricks to get them to work in the various browsers.
I pretty much ignore a lot of the validators simply because most of their
complaints are frivolous, such as warning about incorrect meta tags, which
don't matter anyways and can be very useful for us as developers for our own
information. FP and most of the other modern WYSIWYG editors do an excellent
job of crafting compliant HTML that works.

Hope this helps
Mark Fitzpatrick
Microsoft MVP - FrontPage

Pardon me, but W3C standards *do* work in the "real world." We use them
all the time.

Or perhaps the "real-world" to which you refer doesn't include people
with vision and other disabilities. Validator warnings are not frivolous
and can mean the difference between easy access to a web page to
outright inaccessibility. Indeed, the Web Accessibility Initiative
guidelines at W3C speak to these issues (http://www.w3.org/WAI/). From
a U.S. government perspective (if it applies to you) the issues of
accessibility have been codified into a law known as Section 508
(http://www.section508.gov). Other countries have similar initiatives in
place. In all cases, being compliant to standards means that the
various tools that access information over the Internet can continue to
be interoperable.

The claim of "compliant HTML that works" while at the same time dissing
the validators is disingenuous. If the page doesn't validate, it's not
compliant. Otherwise, to what standard is the HTML compliant?

We recommend and support FrontPage to clients in many circumstances to
help them maintain content and layout on basic web sites. We can
certainly put mechanisms in place to ensure that non-compliant code
generated by FP is filtered out and stays off the web site. But we
won't pretend that FP always generates compliant HTML. FP users should
be aware of these limitations so they can make informed decisions as to
how they will use the tool.

As to Keith's original question -- you'll need to decide how important
standards compliance and web accessibility are to the web site you're
working on. If these are important to you, you may need to get your
hands dirty in the HTML to clean it up. The W3C validators can
certainly help point out where the errors are in your HTML code.

Were you looking at the validators out of curiosity or did you have some
real concerns that needed to be addressed?

- O.
 
<sigh>
Here we go again.


Orest Kinasevych said:
Pardon me, but W3C standards *do* work in the "real world." We use them
all the time.

Or perhaps the "real-world" to which you refer doesn't include people
with vision and other disabilities. Validator warnings are not frivolous
and can mean the difference between easy access to a web page to
outright inaccessibility. Indeed, the Web Accessibility Initiative
guidelines at W3C speak to these issues (http://www.w3.org/WAI/). From
a U.S. government perspective (if it applies to you) the issues of
accessibility have been codified into a law known as Section 508
(http://www.section508.gov). Other countries have similar initiatives in
place. In all cases, being compliant to standards means that the
various tools that access information over the Internet can continue to
be interoperable.

The claim of "compliant HTML that works" while at the same time dissing
the validators is disingenuous. If the page doesn't validate, it's not
compliant. Otherwise, to what standard is the HTML compliant?

We recommend and support FrontPage to clients in many circumstances to
help them maintain content and layout on basic web sites. We can
certainly put mechanisms in place to ensure that non-compliant code
generated by FP is filtered out and stays off the web site. But we
won't pretend that FP always generates compliant HTML. FP users should
be aware of these limitations so they can make informed decisions as to
how they will use the tool.

As to Keith's original question -- you'll need to decide how important
standards compliance and web accessibility are to the web site you're
working on. If these are important to you, you may need to get your
hands dirty in the HTML to clean it up. The W3C validators can
certainly help point out where the errors are in your HTML code.

Were you looking at the validators out of curiosity or did you have some
real concerns that needed to be addressed?

- O.




--
Orest Kinasevych
--------------------------------
OKINA CONSULTING
"Technology Solutions for Publishing"

http://www.okina.net
--------------------------------


For the benefit of all readers, please reply directly to the newsgroup.
We recommend http://www.spamex.com for disposable email addresses.
 
IF ADA compliance is important to you look at FP2003
(which has an ADA compliance checker built in)
See http://www.microsoft.com/office/frontpage/prodinfo/accessibility.mspx

--




| Mark Fitzpatrick wrote:
|
| > A lot of them are adhering to very exacting versions of the standards. That
| > doesn't work in the real world. To get things to look and behave properly,
| > you have to do a lot of tricks to get them to work in the various browsers.
| > I pretty much ignore a lot of the validators simply because most of their
| > complaints are frivolous, such as warning about incorrect meta tags, which
| > don't matter anyways and can be very useful for us as developers for our own
| > information. FP and most of the other modern WYSIWYG editors do an excellent
| > job of crafting compliant HTML that works.
| >
| > Hope this helps
| > Mark Fitzpatrick
| > Microsoft MVP - FrontPage
| >
| > | >
| >>I have two web sites that perform well in all browsers and look fine, yet
| >>when I have the HTML looked at by say TIDY http://cgi.w3.org/cgi-bin/tidy
| >
| > it
| >
| >>reports hundreds of errors and it does the same for top ranked sites I
| >
| > have
| >
| >>viewed for years which I know work and perform fine?
| >>Can anyone tell me why these 'tidys' insist that the sites are wrong when
| >>they are not?
| >>Does anyone know HTML checker that will tidy it up without me having to
| >>spend hours learning HTML ?
| >>Thanks Keith
| >>
| >>--
| >>
| >>
| >>---------------------------------------------------------------------
| >>"Are you still wasting your time with spam?...
| >>There is a solution!"
| >>
| >>Protected by GIANT Company's Spam Inspector
| >>The most powerful anti-spam software available.
| >>http://mail.spaminspector.com
| >>
| >>
| >>
| >
| >
|
| Pardon me, but W3C standards *do* work in the "real world." We use them
| all the time.
|
| Or perhaps the "real-world" to which you refer doesn't include people
| with vision and other disabilities. Validator warnings are not frivolous
| and can mean the difference between easy access to a web page to
| outright inaccessibility. Indeed, the Web Accessibility Initiative
| guidelines at W3C speak to these issues (http://www.w3.org/WAI/). From
| a U.S. government perspective (if it applies to you) the issues of
| accessibility have been codified into a law known as Section 508
| (http://www.section508.gov). Other countries have similar initiatives in
| place. In all cases, being compliant to standards means that the
| various tools that access information over the Internet can continue to
| be interoperable.
|
| The claim of "compliant HTML that works" while at the same time dissing
| the validators is disingenuous. If the page doesn't validate, it's not
| compliant. Otherwise, to what standard is the HTML compliant?
|
| We recommend and support FrontPage to clients in many circumstances to
| help them maintain content and layout on basic web sites. We can
| certainly put mechanisms in place to ensure that non-compliant code
| generated by FP is filtered out and stays off the web site. But we
| won't pretend that FP always generates compliant HTML. FP users should
| be aware of these limitations so they can make informed decisions as to
| how they will use the tool.
|
| As to Keith's original question -- you'll need to decide how important
| standards compliance and web accessibility are to the web site you're
| working on. If these are important to you, you may need to get your
| hands dirty in the HTML to clean it up. The W3C validators can
| certainly help point out where the errors are in your HTML code.
|
| Were you looking at the validators out of curiosity or did you have some
| real concerns that needed to be addressed?
|
| - O.
|
|
|
|
| --
| Orest Kinasevych
| --------------------------------
| OKINA CONSULTING
| "Technology Solutions for Publishing"
|
| http://www.okina.net
| --------------------------------
|
|
| For the benefit of all readers, please reply directly to the newsgroup.
| We recommend http://www.spamex.com for disposable email addresses.
 

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