For those on Stackoverflow.com

[David W. Fenton]

There's currently a discussion on meta.stackoverflow.com about how
to appropriately tag questions about Jet/ACE. Yesterday, a regular
Access poster retagged a whole bunch of articles that weren't about
Access at all, but just about Jet/ACE with the MS-ACCESS tag. I went
through and where the question did not involve Access at all (but
just the db engine), I removed MS-ACCESS and replaced it with
MS-JET-ACE.

This has resulted in this post considering the issue:

http://tinyurl.com/yaa2n4x =>
http://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/33216/ms-access-or-mdb-or-acc
ess-database-engine-or-ms-jet-ace

One very problematic poster who is not an Access-friendly user (he
doesn't really use Access, just complains about Jet/ACE's SQL
dialect because it doesn't perfectly implement SQL 92 or any other
SQL standard) insists that Microsoft has invented the term "Access
database engine" to refer to the ACE and all past versions of Jet. I
think this is ridiculous, even if it *is* MS's policy, as use of Jet
without Access (in, say, an ASP application, or via ODBC) seems a
perverse topic to cover under that Access label.

And, to me, it's the same mistake Microsoft has been making all
alone, which is to obfuscate the distinction between Access the
development tool, and the default database engine that ships with
it. As we all know, Access has a bad reputation among those who are
incapable of or ignorant of the proper way to work with Jet data
stores, with the results that the small, file-based database
engine's reputation for corruption and instability in the hands of
those who don't know what they are doing has caused many people to
conclude that Access as a whole is a toy development tool.

If you're on Stackoverflow, activate your OpenID account on Meta.SO
and post your opinion. I think it's important that the discussion
involve not just those who don't use Access at all, but those of us
who use it all the time.

 

[Tony Toews [MVP]]

I see your points about one of the personalities involved.

This has resulted in this post considering the issue:

http://tinyurl.com/yaa2n4x =>
http://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/33216/ms-access-or-mdb-or-acc
ess-database-engine-or-ms-jet-ace

If you're on Stackoverflow, activate your OpenID account on Meta.SO
and post your opinion. I think it's important that the discussion
involve not just those who don't use Access at all, but those of us
who use it all the time.

Thanks for posting. I'm going to think about this a day or two or so
and then post.

Tony
--
Tony Toews, Microsoft Access MVP
Tony's Main MS Access pages - http://www.granite.ab.ca/accsmstr.htm
Tony's Microsoft Access Blog - http://msmvps.com/blogs/access/
For a convenient utility to keep your users FEs and other files
updated see http://www.autofeupdater.com/
Granite Fleet Manager http://www.granitefleet.com/

 

[david]

I'm not going back into stack-overflow (I visited and didn't like
it), but I think you've made two mistakes.

(1) Your MS-JET-ACE tag is an ugly tag, and unlikely to get
much use or be useful. Stack-overflow is already cursed by
too many tags of limited usefulness, and this one isn't attractive
enough to add anything of value.

(2) "Data Sources (ODBC)" has always called the Jet database
an Access database, or "MS Access Database", That has been
more than 10 years, and for that entire time every Non-Access
Database Application Programmer has known the database
system as "Access".

We know that there is a useful distinction to be made between
"Microsoft Office Access" and ADO/DAO/Jet//Windows
but to be helpful, we've got to answer questions in the terms
they are asked, not hide behind our own language.

Personally, I think Jet and ACE are technical terms, best
reserved for discussion of locking and native Windows
record handling. Access and derived terms are general,
suitable for discussion of ADO/DAO/ODBC/ UDF/VBA
/stored procedures, and MS-OFFICE-ACCESS is a tag
that out to be applied to forms, macros, menus and the Access
GUI.

So I would have been changing ms-access to office-access,
not ms-jet-ace. But I doubt I would have made any friends
that way either.

(david)

 

[David W. Fenton]

I'm not going back into stack-overflow (I visited and didn't like
it), but I think you've made two mistakes.

(1) Your MS-JET-ACE tag is an ugly tag,

Ugly? I wanted it to me ms-Jet/ACE, but there's no capitalization
nor are slashes allowed.

and unlikely to get
much use or be useful. Stack-overflow is already cursed by
too many tags of limited usefulness,

This is because the design of the site is unclear as to the purpose
of tags. Free tagging systems are never going to be adequate to
proper categorization (the Library of Congress maintains strict
subject headings for a reason), though they are easy to use and easy
to implement.

and this one isn't attractive
enough to add anything of value.

To you, perhaps. There is obvious utility to distinguishing
questions about Access from questions about Jet/ACE.

(2) "Data Sources (ODBC)" has always called the Jet database
an Access database, or "MS Access Database", That has been
more than 10 years, and for that entire time every Non-Access
Database Application Programmer has known the database
system as "Access".

And they have been WRONG. And they are constantly asking questions
(not just on SO, but in the Usenet Access forums) using "Access"
without specifying their personal context in which they are not
using Access at all.

I agree that this is mostly Microsoft's fault, but just because MS
makes the mistake doesn't mean we have to perpetuate it in a forum
in which it's possible to do otherwise.

We know that there is a useful distinction to be made between
"Microsoft Office Access" and ADO/DAO/Jet//Windows

"ADO/DAO/JET/Windows" is gibgerish...

but to be helpful, we've got to answer questions in the terms
they are asked, not hide behind our own language.

But then the first few comments are "are you using Access or ASP or
ODBC or what?", and before that question is asked a number of people
will post answers that are inappropriate, either assuming an Access
environment inappropriately, or a non-Access environment (how many
Jet/ACE SQL questions get T-SQL answers? LOTS OF THEM).

Personally, I think Jet and ACE are technical terms, best
reserved for discussion of locking and native Windows
record handling.

It's a forum for COMPUTER PROGRAMMERS. What more ideal forum would
there be for insisting on maintaining proper technical distinctions?

Access and derived terms are general,
suitable for discussion of ADO/DAO/ODBC/ UDF/VBA
/stored procedures, and MS-OFFICE-ACCESS is a tag
that out to be applied to forms, macros, menus and the Access
GUI.

I disagree quite strongly.

So I would have been changing ms-access to office-access,
not ms-jet-ace. But I doubt I would have made any friends
that way either.

You seem to be a fan of the position that questions about Access
development don't belong on SO at all.

You're in my killfile and I'm reminded of why.