filmscanner vs hi-res flatbed

P

Polar Light

At a photography equipment shop, the assistant recommended one of the
'photo' flatbed scanners (Epson & Cannon) instead of a dedicated 35mm film
scanner. They range in resolution from 2400 to 4800 dpi, i.e. similar to the
dedicated scanners, at lower prices, plus they also scan prints. One of them
is A3+, another takes film up to 120. Is there a catch? Is the quality
comparable to that of dedicated filmscanners? I have a large amount of 35mm
slides plus a small number of negs to scan & I'd like to be able to print
them on special A4 photo papers. Are flatbeds really a good alternative?

Many thanks
 
B

bmoag

In absolute terms the flatbeds are not as good as dedicated film scanners.
For your particular purposes they might be more than adequate.
When I compare the scans from my old Canonscan4000 dedicated film scanner to
what I get from my flatbed Epson 4180 I would not be truthful if I said
there was no difference. Particularly with less than optimally exposed
images the dedicated film scanner is clearly superior.
However if I had never seen scans from my dedicated film scanner and was
only using the images for my advanced (?) amateur purposes I would be happy
with the output from the flatbed.
Are you missing anything if you don't know what you are missing?
 
C

Charlie Hoffpauir

At a photography equipment shop, the assistant recommended one of the
'photo' flatbed scanners (Epson & Cannon) instead of a dedicated 35mm film
scanner. They range in resolution from 2400 to 4800 dpi, i.e. similar to the
dedicated scanners, at lower prices, plus they also scan prints. One of them
is A3+, another takes film up to 120. Is there a catch?
Yes.
Is the quality
comparable to that of dedicated filmscanners?
No

I have a large amount of 35mm
slides plus a small number of negs to scan & I'd like to be able to print
them on special A4 photo papers. Are flatbeds really a good alternative?
A good alternative for film size larger than 35 mm. IF you have 35mm
to scan, a better choice is a cheaper or used film scanner and a cheap
flatbed.
Many thanks

Charlie Hoffpauir
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~charlieh/
 
C

CSM1

Polar Light said:
At a photography equipment shop, the assistant recommended one of the
'photo' flatbed scanners (Epson & Cannon) instead of a dedicated 35mm film
scanner. They range in resolution from 2400 to 4800 dpi, i.e. similar to
the dedicated scanners, at lower prices, plus they also scan prints. One
of them is A3+, another takes film up to 120. Is there a catch? Is the
quality comparable to that of dedicated filmscanners? I have a large
amount of 35mm slides plus a small number of negs to scan & I'd like to be
able to print them on special A4 photo papers. Are flatbeds really a good
alternative?

Many thanks
While flatbed scanners are getting better at scanning film, for 35 mm film,
the dedicated film scanner does best.

A comparison between flatbed and film scanners.
http://www.schoolofphotography.com/if/infocus28.html

Scanner Reviews:
http://www.imaging-resource.com/SCAN1.HTM
http://www.steves-digicams.com/scanners.html

Flatbed scanners often have one half the stated resolution. Meaning that if
the manufacturer states a 3200 dpi, it may have actually 1600 dpi of real
resolution.

The sensor is also designed for a full 8.5 inch wide scan, when the width of
35 mm film is 24 mm or 0.945 inches wide for the image.

So you are only using about 1 inch of the whole scanning bar. A Film scanner
designed for 35 mm film has a sensor that uses all of the sensor area.

Most users have two scanners, one flatbed with transparency adapter for
documents and Photos and maybe 120 film and a dedicated film scanner for 35
mm film.

http://www.scantips.com/ is a very good place to learn about scanning. He
covers flatbed and Film scanner tips.
 
K

Kennedy McEwen

Polar said:
At a photography equipment shop, the assistant recommended one of the
'photo' flatbed scanners (Epson & Cannon) instead of a dedicated 35mm film
scanner. They range in resolution from 2400 to 4800 dpi, i.e. similar to the
dedicated scanners, at lower prices, plus they also scan prints. One of them
is A3+, another takes film up to 120. Is there a catch?

Yes, the catch is that resolution is not the only measure of scanner
performance. Another measure of performance is MTF, or modulation
transfer function. This is just a measure of how much contrast the
scanner can reproduce at different resolutions. It is just the
scanner's equivalent of the frequency response plot that you used to see
on the back of quality audio cassette sleeves. Assessing scanner
performance requires consideration of resolution and MTF together, as
well as other parameters such as density and dynamic ranges.

Like most technologies, there is a "god law" that sampled data cannot
unambiguously reproduce signals with more than half the sampling
resolution. So if you have a scanner that is, say, 4000ppi then it
cannot reproduce signals which are more than 2000cy/in, or 2000lp/in. In
other words, you need at least two pixels per cycle - crudely one for
the positive half and one for the negative half. If you sample signals
which have more resolution then this results in aliasing, or beat
patterns. I am sure you have seen these before, if not in scanned
images then on TV with presenters wearing fine patterned jackets or fine
striped shirts. In traditional sampled systems, such as digital audio,
the signal is deliberately filtered to less than this limit before being
sampled so as to avoid audio beats and aliases.

This is effectively what most flatbed designs try to achieve, by using a
staggered CCD array. This is a linear CCD where each colour is actually
produced from two separate lines of sensors, offset from each other by
half a pixel pitch. We can go into the technical details of how this
works if you like, but the key point is that this approach produces an
MTF which is zero exactly at half the sampling resolution and pretty
small above that. The consequence is that the scanner can reproduce all
of the information presented to it without aliasing, right up to the
maximum resolution quoted.

However, in the audio the signal is electronic and it can be restricted
to the unambiguous band by steep cut-off electronic filters. In optics
there is no practical equivalent. Consequently, by ensuring that no
contrast is present in the sampled scanner image at the limit where
ambiguity begins, there must also be a reduced contrast in the region
where the scanner image can be reproduced unambiguously. The
consequence of this reduced contrast, or low MTF, is that the image
looks soft - even though it technically has the full resolution quoted,
the MTF at the limit of that resolution is zero and it is also low for
quite a way up to that limit.

In a dedicated desktop film scanner the emphasis in the design is to get
the maximum MTF right up to the limit of resolution even if some
significant MTF is present beyond that limit. Consequently the scanned
images have more contrast in the detail and look sharper - even though
the limit of resolution may technically be the same as the flatbed,
there is essentially no MTF reduction below that limit.

You might ask why these scanner types differ, and the answer is the
usual combination of compromise and cost. In a flatbed scanner, the
device is not just used for film, and some of the media may have very
specific spatial frequencies that extend over large areas of the subject
and these will alias into particularly obvious and objectionable
patterns. Printer dot patterns are just one example. So the flatbed
scanner design is generally optimised to eliminate these effects by
ensuring that it is physically impossible to create aliasing at the
limit of resolution. If no aliasing is present at the maximum
resolution then it can safely be downsampled by algorithms that minimise
its introduction. Such algorithms all contain the digital equivalent of
the sharp analogue cut-off filter used in the audio signal.

On the other hand, the finest detail that is usually presented to the
dedicated film scanner is the film grain, which is a random range of
spatial frequencies, few of which correlate between samples.
Consequently, any aliasing that occurs in the dedicated film scanner is
usually only an amplification of the random grain structure, there is no
beat pattern or typical alias image. The original grain may be finer
than a pixel, but it is all reproduced as coarse as a pixel but with the
original contrast. In some cases, with very high resolution film and
camera lenses some image aliasing can occur, although it is generally
quite small with current 4000 and 5400ppi scanners.

Ideally, dedicated film scanners should use the staggered CCD approach
as well to ensure that this simply does not happen and to eliminate
grain aliasing entirely - but there is a cost. That would mean that
your film scanner would have 4x as much data to produce and a more
expensive CCD - for a very limited set of images from cameras and film
which are capable of producing the problem. Well, one day it might
happen, but it isn't there yet.

If you have your images scanned with a proper drum scanner then the
operator will have a control called the aperture (or similar) which
basically adjusts the sensor pixel size independently of the resolution
of the scan - effectively adjusting the amount of overlap between pixels
somewhere between that of the desktop film scanner (zero) and the
flatbed (up to 50%). This allows the drum scanner to obtain the best
tradeoff between MTF (ie. apparent image sharpness) and aliasing for
each image and film type. Unfortunately, this is not a facility that is
available with any current dedicated desktop scanners.

So the bottom line is that a flatbed may have the same resolution on
paper as a film scanner, but the image from the dedicated film scanner
will be considerably sharper, at the expense of some visually amplified
grain and possible image aliasing if your film, lens and camera
technique are absolutely tip top.
Is the quality
comparable to that of dedicated filmscanners?

No. They are different trade-offs.
I have a large amount of 35mm
slides plus a small number of negs to scan & I'd like to be able to print
them on special A4 photo papers. Are flatbeds really a good alternative?
If you restrict your output to A4, then the best of the current crop of
flatbeds scanning at 4800ppi will do an adequate job, even with
reasonable cropping. You simply won't see the reduced MTF and the
elimination of aliasing will produce nice smooth images. However, like
most things, once you get used to printing at that size you will want a
little bit more, or there might be situations where a bit more cropping
is necessary and then the MTF limitations of your flatbed will start to
be objectionable. Ultimately, you want the MTF of the film to be the
limit on your print size, not the MTF of the tool that you use to
digitise those film images. It is essentially the same argument for
choosing the best lenses for your camera.
 
K

Kennedy McEwen

CSM1 said:
Flatbed scanners often have one half the stated resolution. Meaning that if
the manufacturer states a 3200 dpi, it may have actually 1600 dpi of real
resolution.
No they don't! See my other post.
 
?

-

If you only have 35 mm, go for a dedicated film scanner. Somebody recently
posted that the Minolta Dual Scan IV was only about $220 from NewEgg.com. A
very decent dedicated film scanner for 35 mm at that price.

Doug
 
H

Hans-Dieter Oberle

Kennedy said:
No they don't! See my other post.

I have seen your other post and I do understand it. But in the past I have seen
a lot of tests which proved that the "real" resolution of flatbed scanners is
only about half the resolution compared to the spec. Are these tests wrong, or
what is the reason for this result?

Dieter Oberle
 
D

Danny

the main difference is True Optical resolution vs interpolation. I
don't know about desktop publishing or photo scanners, but for document
imaging scanners, it's very rare to find any with CCD's exceding 600dpi
true optical resolution (in fact, I've never heard of one)
 
D

Danny

the main difference is True Optical resolution vs interpolation. I
don't know about desktop publishing or photo scanners, but for document
imaging scanners, it's very rare to find any with CCD's exceding 600dpi
true optical resolution (in fact, I've never heard of one)
 
P

Peter D

Charlie Hoffpauir said:

Is it really that absolute? For example, is it that absolute when comparing
a cheap/low quality dedicated film scanner and a top of the line flatbed?
With poor quality originals? With superb quality originals?
 
P

Peter D

Danny said:
the main difference is True Optical resolution vs interpolation. I
don't know about desktop publishing or photo scanners, but for document
imaging scanners, it's very rare to find any with CCD's exceding 600dpi
true optical resolution (in fact, I've never heard of one)

That may be because that's all that's needed. However, the blanket statement
that most flatbeds have only half the stated resolution is simply wrong.
Flatbeds max out at 2400 dpi OPTICAL resolution. Higher than than that is
achieved by stacking CCDs at half-pixel. I'm not familiar enough with the
technology to explain.
 
P

Peter D

CSM1 said:
While flatbed scanners are getting better at scanning film, for 35 mm
film, the dedicated film scanner does best.

A comparison between flatbed and film scanners.
http://www.schoolofphotography.com/if/infocus28.html

Very poorly written. And clearly written to present a single point of view.
Not even Grade 12 material! :)
Scanner Reviews:
http://www.imaging-resource.com/SCAN1.HTM
http://www.steves-digicams.com/scanners.html

Flatbed scanners often have one half the stated resolution.

Huh? I've never heard such a thing before. Unless you mean interpolated
resolution. In which case please say so to avoid confusion. If not...

Optical resolution is optical resolution is it not? If my scanner is rated
at 2400 dpi optical resolution then it's 2400 dpi optical resolution, yes?
If you are saying it's not, do you have anything to support your claim?
The sensor is also designed for a full 8.5 inch wide scan

Wel, yes. But that's obvious and nothing to do with what follows.
when the width of 35 mm film is 24 mm or 0.945 inches wide for the image.

Yes. And what's the point? That a flatbed can scan wider than the slide/film
needs?
So you are only using about 1 inch of the whole scanning bar. A Film
scanner designed for 35 mm film has a sensor that uses all of the sensor
area.

What does this mean? That a film scanner always scans the full film/slide
area without moving a scanning bar (as you called it) like a flatbed? Please
xplain your point. Thank you.
 
C

Charlie Hoffpauir

Is it really that absolute? For example, is it that absolute when comparing
a cheap/low quality dedicated film scanner and a top of the line flatbed?
With poor quality originals? With superb quality originals?

There are flat beds available for several thousand dollars that will
rival in quality the scan obtainable for an under $1000 hobbyest
scanner.... but they are true exceptions and wouldn't be considered in
this instance. But in general, a good flat bed scanner sells for half
of what a good 35mm film scanner sells for, and doesn't begin to reach
the scan quality. As for a "cheap/low quality" film scanner.... well
it's always possible to find some products that are simply worthlsss,
so yes, you can find a cheap film scanner that will perform poorer
than a good flat bed. But why would anyone wnat to do that?
Charlie Hoffpauir
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~charlieh/
 
I

Ira Solomon

I strongly suggest that you look at:
http://www.photo-i.co.uk/Reviews/interactive/Scanners/Canon_9950F/page_1.htm
and
http://www.photo-i.co.uk/Reviews/interactive/Epson 4990/Page 1.htm

These are comprehensive reviews of the 2 best flatbed/film scanners
around. Neither are cheap.
I am trying to decide if I should sell my film scanner and my current
flatbed and get one of the above devices. I have only digital cameras
now, but lots of old 25mm negs and slides.
I haven't decided yet, but reading those reviews will help you make up
your mind.

Good luck
Ira Solomon
 
C

CSM1

Peter D said:
Very poorly written. And clearly written to present a single point of
view. Not even Grade 12 material! :)


Huh? I've never heard such a thing before. Unless you mean interpolated
resolution. In which case please say so to avoid confusion. If not...

Optical resolution is optical resolution is it not? If my scanner is rated
at 2400 dpi optical resolution then it's 2400 dpi optical resolution, yes?
If you are saying it's not, do you have anything to support your claim?

If you look around the web you can see many tests and reports of the the
apparent resolution of flatbed scanners being about one half the stated
optical resolution. The new batch of 2400 dpi and up flatbed scanners are
better, but no competition for any decent film scanner.

Most of these tests involve scanning a test target at various resolutions
and seeing the results on a magnified portion of the image. Some are
photographs of fine detail objects.

One of the tests is a series of Black and White bars. A very good way to see
the line pairs resolution of the actual scan.
http://www.crystalcanyons.net/Pages/TechNotes/ScannerResolution.shtm

A source of Resolution Test Patterns: There are some very good charts here
for free, but you better have a very good photo printer and high gloss photo
paper to print them.( The PDF versions are the best)
http://www.bealecorner.com/trv900/respat/

Here are some tests of a Epson 1640 scanner:
http://www.kenrockwell.com/1640.htm

Epson 2450:
http://www.virtualtraveller.org/epson2450p4.htm

Epson 4870:
http://members.aol.com/OlivThill/photoste/scan_e4870.htm
Wel, yes. But that's obvious and nothing to do with what follows.


Yes. And what's the point? That a flatbed can scan wider than the
slide/film needs?


What does this mean? That a film scanner always scans the full film/slide
area without moving a scanning bar (as you called it) like a flatbed?
Please xplain your point. Thank you.
My film scanner (Minolta ScanDual IV) has a fixed sensor and it moves the
film to scan in a single pass.
Image sensor: 3-line primary-color CCD with 5340 pixels/line.
Optical input Resolution: 3200 dpi
 
G

Gordon Moat

Peter said:
That may be because that's all that's needed. However, the blanket statement
that most flatbeds have only half the stated resolution is simply wrong.
Flatbeds max out at 2400 dpi OPTICAL resolution. Higher than than that is
achieved by stacking CCDs at half-pixel. I'm not familiar enough with the
technology to explain.

Scanners that one can buy at an office or computer store are limited. Spend a
ton more money, and better things are available in flatbed scanners:

<http://www.creo.com/global/products...r+Scanners-+comparison+table?countryid=global>

I doubt many on this news group have either seen, nor used these products. Creo
is not the only company who make some truly high end flat scanners. Current
other choices are Purop-Eskofot, Dainippon Screen, and Fujifilm Electronic
Imaging. Past products greater than 2400 dpi Optical include the Heidelberg
Nexscan.

The downside is that just the bottom end of the best gear starts at $US 9000.
Unless someone is running a business, or just rich, these are not choices
amateurs should consider. Of course, an Imacon film scanner is quite good, and
also somewhat expensive, so that is another aspect of film scanners. If you
want true heart failure from prices, check out ICG drum scanners.

Ciao!

Gordon Moat
A G Studio
<http://www.allgstudio.com>
 
G

Gordon Moat

Ira said:
I strongly suggest that you look at:
http://www.photo-i.co.uk/Reviews/interactive/Scanners/Canon_9950F/page_1.htm
and
http://www.photo-i.co.uk/Reviews/interactive/Epson 4990/Page 1.htm

These are comprehensive reviews of the 2 best flatbed/film scanners
around. Neither are cheap.

Actually, for those looking for business level scanners, those two are neither
the "best", nor are they expensive. Try creo iQSmart or EverSmart, Dainippon
Screen Cezanne, or Fuji Lanovia Quattro.
I am trying to decide if I should sell my film scanner and my current
flatbed and get one of the above devices. I have only digital cameras
now, but lots of old 25mm negs and slides.
I haven't decided yet, but reading those reviews will help you make up
your mind.

Good luck
Ira Solomon

You might consider a low end Imacon film scanner. The quality is quite good, and
you might not ever need to think about buying another film scanner.

Ciao!

Gordon Moat
A G Studio
<http://www.allgstudio.com>
 
K

Kennedy McEwen

Peter D said:
Flatbeds max out at 2400 dpi OPTICAL resolution.

No, you will find some consumer flatbeds run up to 4800ppi.
Higher than than that is
achieved by stacking CCDs at half-pixel.
Stacking the CCDs at half pixel, as you put it, does not mean that the
resolution is limited to the original unstacked device - quite the
opposite.
I'm not familiar enough with the
technology to explain.

It is quite simple really.

Each element in the CCD produces a signal based on the average amount of
light that falls on its surface. If you project a black and white line
pattern onto the CCD where all of the odd elements see a black line and
all of the even elements see a white line then you will get a reasonably
high contrast output going from minimum to maximum at each pixel. But
if you now project a line pattern which is slightly smaller than the
distance between CCD elements you still get a signal with a contrast
which modulates up and down between maximum and minimum along the CCD.
Each element in the CCD sees a mixture of a black and white line in some
proportion. You can keep on making the line pattern finer and finer
until eventually you get to the point where each element in the CCD sees
exactly half a black line and half a white line - and consequently every
element in the CCD produces a signal corresponding to mid-grey. No
matter how you move the line pattern relative to the CCD the output
remains uniform at exactly mid grey.

This is the point where the line pattern is at exactly the null in the
frequency response of each CCD element. So each CCD element can
unambiguously resolve lines up to half of its width - or, line pairs
equal to its width. Of course the CCD itself cannot reproduce all of
this resolution, because it is limited to unambiguously resolving line
pairs up to twice the pitch of the CCD elements, where one element sees
black and the next white.

So there is an apparent contradiction - the individual cells in the CCD
can resolve at least twice the information that the CCD array can
reproduce. The consequence of scanning line patterns which the elements
can resolve and yet the linear array cannot reproduce is that the line
patters alias - the signal modulates along the length of the CCD between
minimum and maximum.

However, if you now place a second linear CCD array half an element
pitch offset from the original line you overcome the problem. Now you
have halved the effective distance between CCD element centres, doubling
the resolution that the CCDs can unambiguously reproduce. However you
still have the same element size, so the same line pattern produces the
mid-grey output as before. The overall result is that the staggered CCD
can now unambiguously resolve almost all of the information that the
individual CCD elements can.

Now it isn't a win-win situation - you aren't getting everything for
nothing, but you are getting some advantage. What you lose is the
contrast of the signal as you increase the line pattern towards the
resolution limit. This is because every element sees a mixture of a
black and white line, instead of only a black or white line.
Nevertheless, even when some cross contamination of the line pattern
occurs in each element, a useful signal is usually produced - almost up
to the point where the element sees exactly half of each line.

So a staggered CCD can unambiguously resolve much more detail than a
simple linear CCD.
 
K

Kennedy McEwen

the main difference is True Optical resolution vs interpolation. I
don't know about desktop publishing or photo scanners, but for document
imaging scanners, it's very rare to find any with CCD's exceding 600dpi
true optical resolution (in fact, I've never heard of one)
Those comments are so inaccurate that they barely justify a response! It
is actually quite difficult to find a flatbed scanner these days with an
optical resolution below 600ppi! The vast majority of scanners on the
market greatly exceed this.

Furthermore, there are more alternatives to optical resolution than
interpolated resolution. Interpolation means estimating new data by
applying mathematical rules to existing data. However many flatbed
scanners offer asymmetric resolution figures, with one axis being twice
the resolution of the other. This is achieved by moving the CCD along
the scan by half the distance between the elements in the CCD itself.
The distance between the elements on the CCD are typically referred to
as the "optical resolution", but the resolution that is achieved in the
direction that the CCD is moved consists of real samples - there is no
interpolation in that axis at all.

So a quoted resolution of, say, 1200x2400ppi really means that the
scanner can sample at 1200ppi in one axis (along the CCD) and 2400ppi in
the other axis. When interpolation is used it is to create a square
pixel format to 2400x2400ppi from the scanned resolution of
1200x2400ppi, but that original 2400ppi is real, UN-interpolated data,
output straight from the hardware.
 

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