Film/scanner "dark noise"

K

kolwicz

I tried to get some feel of my system/film's (Minolta SMPro/WinxP/Kodak
Portra 160NC) dark noise so I did the following:

With all scanner settings the same (VueScan 8.1.10/Image/RAW/no color
or compression adjustments/3200dpi/no filtering, etc.) two long
exposure pass scans were done of part of a full frame overexposure of a
detailless subject with the lens out of focus. Each scan included part
of the opaque black film holder and immediately adjacent film. One was
done with in one pass and one with 4 scan passes, which I thought was
supposed to reduce noise.

Examining the files in Photoshop6 I found this information from the
Histogram (range 0 - 255 levels, even though these are 16 bit files;
Std.Dev. is not shown as a percent, so I presume it is in absolute
number of levels):

Single Pass - Holder Median = 1; Std.Dev. = 0.15; Film Median = 10;
Std.Dev. = 0.54.

4 Pass - Holder Median = 1; Std.Dev. = 0.04; Film Median = 10; Std.Dev.
= 0.59. (Expressed as a percent, 0.59 levels out of 255 = 0.2%)

The effect of the 4 passes makes sense for the opaque holder, but seems
to have no real effect on the film scan. In any event, 0.2% noise seems
pretty good to me.

My main question is: how bad is this noise level? But also how relevant
is this analysis?
 
D

Don

First of all, VueScan is far too buggy and unreliable for this sort of
testing, or IMHO, indeed, for anything else.

As to the tests themselves, a couple of caveats. VueScan's "long
exposure pass" is, in effect, *multi-pass* multiscanning, meaning that
the image is scanned twice (scan once, move the CCD array back to
start, scan again). Therefore, there is an inevitable misalignment
between the two scans making any measurements essentially meaningless.
In other words, any two pixels in the two scans do not correspond to
the same image location.

In most cases the misalignment is sub-pixel so a simple manual shift
of one image in Photoshop later is not enough (should you decide to do
the scans yourself and combine later). You would need to sub-pixel
align the images which will introduce another problem, softening of
one image, again skewing the results.

I'm not familiar with the Minolta, but if it's not capable of
*single-pass* multiscanning, your VueScan "multi-scanning" would again
be multi-pass which, as illustrated above, would be essentially
useless both for your testing purposes and for improving the noise
level. That would explain why you're not noticing much difference.

I've been wrestling with this for a while (Kodachromes on Nikon LS-50)
and after a year of hand wringing the best solution (for me) is to
scan each slide twice (once for highlights, and once for shadows). I
then combine the two images manually including sub-pixel alignment and
cast adjustment (you get a different color response at different
exposures, another thing VueScan cheerfully ignores).

Anyway, my manual approach is very time-consuming but the results are
quite stunning. I've essentially turned my 14-bit (single-pass)
scanner into a variable dynamic range scanner managing to get detail
out of darkest Kodachromes without sacrificing (i.e. burning out) the
highlights.

Finally, you can get a free PS6 plug-in to do 16-bit histograms. It
also enables you to export the data for further processing in Excel,
for example, so you can create graphs, etc. I don't have the http
handy but google for "Reindeer Graphics", "Optipix" and "Wide
Histogram".

Don.
 
K

kolwicz

Thanks, Don,

Replies and questions after quotes from your message:
First of all, VueScan is far too buggy and unreliable for this sort of
testing, or IMHO, indeed, for anything else.

I've been using VueScan successfully for about a year and, although
I've had problems, it has been fine since some time this summer, so
please explain your comment above about "buggy and unreliable", this is
news to me. FHK
As to the tests themselves, a couple of caveats. VueScan's "long
exposure pass" is, in effect, *multi-pass* multiscanning, meaning that
the image is scanned twice (scan once, move the CCD array back to
start, scan again). Therefore, there is an inevitable misalignment
between the two scans making any measurements essentially meaningless.
In other words, any two pixels in the two scans do not correspond to
the same image location.

Why would pixel or sub-pixel alignments affect my test as I'm working
with the histogram for almost the whole 6x7 cm film area? Is it that
the blurring effect will suppress the range of pixel values and give a
false low number for the "Standard Deviation" spread? And, disregarding
the scanner software, is Standard Deviation in the Histogram a
reasonable method of estimating or comparing film grain and dark noise,
at least among my film choices on my machine? FHK
In most cases the misalignment is sub-pixel so a simple manual shift
of one image in Photoshop later is not enough (should you decide to do
the scans yourself and combine later). You would need to sub-pixel
align the images which will introduce another problem, softening of
one image, again skewing the results.

I'm not familiar with the Minolta, but if it's not capable of
*single-pass* multiscanning, your VueScan "multi-scanning" would again
be multi-pass which, as illustrated above, would be essentially
useless both for your testing purposes and for improving the noise
level. That would explain why you're not noticing much difference.

The ScanMultiPro does single pass mutli-scanning. How does this affect
your comments above? FHK
I've been wrestling with this for a while (Kodachromes on Nikon LS-50)
and after a year of hand wringing the best solution (for me) is to
scan each slide twice (once for highlights, and once for shadows). I
then combine the two images manually including sub-pixel alignment and
cast adjustment (you get a different color response at different
exposures, another thing VueScan cheerfully ignores).

What software do you use instead? And how is sub-pixel alignment done?
I had assumed that PS6, for example, only moved the image data in pixel
increments in any direction. FHK
Anyway, my manual approach is very time-consuming but the results are
quite stunning. I've essentially turned my 14-bit (single-pass)
scanner into a variable dynamic range scanner managing to get detail
out of darkest Kodachromes without sacrificing (i.e. burning out) the
highlights.

I can see that transparency film would have a much more severe problem
than color negative film and would require that approach. The tone
range of my current film, Portra 160, the one I did the test on, seems
to be well within the range of the scanner and I no longer make two
scan passes, as I did some time ago and when scanning my older film
(Kodachrome, TMax, Ektachrome, Ilford FP4+, Agfa 25, and some others).
FHK
Finally, you can get a free PS6 plug-in to do 16-bit histograms. It
also enables you to export the data for further processing in Excel,
for example, so you can create graphs, etc. I don't have the http
handy but google for "Reindeer Graphics", "Optipix" and "Wide
Histogram".
But I can see histograms in 16 bit without any plugin. FHK
 
B

Bruce Graham

I've been using VueScan successfully for about a year and, although
I've had problems, it has been fine since some time this summer, so
please explain your comment above about "buggy and unreliable", this is
news to me. FHK
if you search the newsgoup archives, you will see this subject is a bit
of a crusade for Don. I'm with you, Vuescan is useful software, not
perfect, but a very welcome alternative to the manufacturers software,
which in my case is very limited. - Bruce
 
D

Don

I've been using VueScan successfully for about a year and, although
I've had problems, it has been fine since some time this summer, so
please explain your comment above about "buggy and unreliable", this is
news to me. FHK

There is a constant stream of messages about VueScan bugs and
exasperated users scrambling for older versions of the program where
one or the other feature still worked. Some bugs, e.g. the notorious
Minolta streaks, seemed to be a permanent "feature" for at least a
year while other bugs reappear at almost regular intervals.

All in all, VueScan may be OK for casual use, but not if you care
about quality or accuracy. As someone once said, VueScan can at best
be charitably described as a "rolling beta".
Why would pixel or sub-pixel alignments affect my test as I'm working
with the histogram for almost the whole 6x7 cm film area? Is it that
the blurring effect will suppress the range of pixel values and give a
false low number for the "Standard Deviation" spread? And, disregarding
the scanner software, is Standard Deviation in the Histogram a
reasonable method of estimating or comparing film grain and dark noise,
at least among my film choices on my machine? FHK

Blurring is actually supposed to help but the point I was making,
really, is just to be aware of the whole picture.

This is because, in my experience, scanning is the trickiest thing I
ever came across. It's like those Russian dolls with an almost
unlimited number of gotchas hiding within other gotchas. However,
that's really relevant only if you are into "details" and by measuring
noise you - just like me - seem to have an "enquiring mind"... ;o)
The ScanMultiPro does single pass mutli-scanning. How does this affect
your comments above? FHK

If you have single-pass multi-scanning then you will achieve some
noise reduction. However, even though that's a "good thing" the
effects are still limited because you are also scanning noise multiple
times. I don't know what algorithms are used in your case (or my
NikonScan, for that matter) but noise reduction is a science in its
own right. For example, throwing away extreme values before averaging
(generally) produces better results than blindly averaging all values,
etc.

I personally find that scanning twice - once for shadows and once for
highlights - produces far more dramatic improvement in reducing noise.
I do realize this is beyond the scope of your question (accurately
determining noise levels) but, presumably, reducing noise is the end
goal.
What software do you use instead? And how is sub-pixel alignment done?
I had assumed that PS6, for example, only moved the image data in pixel
increments in any direction. FHK

I use NikonScan, which is my scanner's native software. However, I got
the Software Developer Kit recently so - time permitting - I'm hoping
to "roll my own" in not too distant future.

There is commercial software out there to do sub-pixel alignment. I
don't know the exact details of how they achieve it.

So, after some thinking, I devised my own method using PS6:

As the name suggests, subpixel alignment is when two images are off by
a fraction of a pixel. I determine this by blowing up the images to
100% or more (300% seems to work well) and then flipping between the
two. In Photoshop, if you check the "Resize windows to fit" the images
should be superimposed automatically once you blow them up. After that
I use Control/Tab to flip between the two. The "pepper spots" seem
particularly well suited to spotting the subpixel shift.

The idea, then, is to move one of the images this fraction of a pixel
in order to align them. In essence (in my method) I first blow up the
image, move it, and then reduce. Easiest explained with an example:

Say, you have an image of 100x100 pixels and want to move it by a 1/3
of a pixel. I would blow up the image by 3 to become a 300x300 pixel
image, move it by 1 pixel in the desired direction, and then shrink
the image back to 100x100. Bingo, the image has moved by a 1/3 of a
pixel!

Two caveats. When changing image size use the highest quality
possible. In my version of Photoshop (6) that's "Bicubic". The second
caveat is that any resizing of the image will blur it somewhat.
Because of that I move the image which has less content, in my
particular case (slides) that would be the shadows' scan. Also, if the
image is shifted in only one direction, say, horizontally - blow up
the image only on that axis (in above example to 300x100). That will
reduce blurring.
I can see that transparency film would have a much more severe problem
than color negative film and would require that approach. The tone
range of my current film, Portra 160, the one I did the test on, seems
to be well within the range of the scanner and I no longer make two
scan passes, as I did some time ago and when scanning my older film
(Kodachrome, TMax, Ektachrome, Ilford FP4+, Agfa 25, and some others).
FHK

In theory, my 14-bit scanner should also have more than enough dynamic
range for my Kodachromes - but it doesn't. My first scanner was a
Nikon LS-30 which is only 10-bits internally. So one of the main
reasons for buying the LS-50 was the dynamic range. However, my tests
showed that I really need about 17-18 bits of dynamic range to
penetrate those dark Kodachrome shadows without burning out the
highlights.
But I can see histograms in 16 bit without any plugin. FHK

The problem is you only see 256 "bins". Since each 16-bit image
channel data can have 256*256 distinct values, each of those bins you
see actually contains the sum of 256 distinct 16-bit value counts.

The above mentioned "Wide histogram" doesn't actually go that far, but
it increases the number of bins to 1024. However, the most useful
feature (to me, at least) is the ability to export data so you can do
your own calculations - like the standard deviation - instead of
guessing what PS does internally.

Don.
 
D

Don

if you search the newsgoup archives, you will see this subject is a bit
of a crusade for Don.

Only if by "crusade" you mean stating objective facts when challenged.
Indeed, I also advise reading the archives!

Don doesn't write daily complaints about the never-ending stream of
VueScan bugs. It's the exasperated VueScan users themselves.

Today's favorite seems to be the so-called IR "cleaning" which
apparently does everything except clean...

Don.
 
R

Ralf R. Radermacher

Don said:
Only if by "crusade" you mean stating objective facts when challenged.

Do yourself and all of us a favour. Join your local therapy group of
Praters Anonymous before it's too late.

Ralf
 

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