Fans failed to power up! Could it be a PSU problem?

H

Harry

Hi all

My pc booted up the other day, but all the fans failed to spin up.
They are all connected to a Sunbeam Rheobus.

The rest of the PC began booting normally, but I had to shut it down
pretty quick as the HSF fan was on the Rheobus too!

I turned off all the fans using the Rheobus except the CPU fan. Then
it booted fine.

Question: Could this be a PSU issue? I think it might. Do I need an
upgrade?


My specs. are
QuietPC (QTechnology) 300W PSU 3.3v - 20A 5v - 26A 12v - 13A

A7V333-X mobo
XP2000 Thoroughbred
512Mb TwinMos 2700 ram
1 Deskstar 7200 120 HDD
1 Fujitsu 7200 20Gb HDD
1 Sony DVD/CDRW drive
HSF is a Zalman Cu6000 with an antec 4 LED 120mm Fan
3 more 80mm LED fans
1 UV cold cathode tube

Normal operating temps

Ambient Temp 21C
Case Temp 26C
CPU Temp 56C (58C under load - eg Quake)
 
R

ric

Harry said:
My pc booted up the other day, but all the fans failed to spin up.
They are all connected to a Sunbeam Rheobus.

The rest of the PC began booting normally, but I had to shut it down
pretty quick as the HSF fan was on the Rheobus too!

I turned off all the fans using the Rheobus except the CPU fan. Then
it booted fine.

Question: Could this be a PSU issue? I think it might. Do I need an
upgrade?
Click to expand...

What makes you think it is a PSU problem?
 
D

Don_B

It is unlikely that it's your power supply if it would run one fan and boot
the computer.
Start connecing the other fans one at a time. If you get to one that yields
the same
problem, disconnect it and connect additional fans. If all fans except the
one fan run,
then disconnect all fans except the HSF fan and the "gulity" fan. If the
system fails to
boot, you've found the culprit. If the system does boot, start connecting
additional
fans. If it runs with most, but not all of your fans, you've got an
inadequate power
supply.

BTW some would consider it useful if you had mentioned the size of your
power
supply in your initial post.
 
G

Guest

Harry said:
My pc booted up the other day, but all the fans failed to spin up.
They are all connected to a Sunbeam Rheobus.

The rest of the PC began booting normally, but I had to shut it down
pretty quick as the HSF fan was on the Rheobus too!

I turned off all the fans using the Rheobus except the CPU fan. Then
it booted fine.

Question: Could this be a PSU issue? I think it might. Do I need an
upgrade?


My specs. are
QuietPC (QTechnology) 300W PSU 3.3v - 20A 5v - 26A 12v - 13A

A7V333-X mobo
XP2000 Thoroughbred
Click to expand...

The power supply cannot possibly be the issue if the rest of the
computer operates normally, and QTechnology supplies are of very high
quality, basically beefed-up Fortron-Source supplies, which are
already among the best in the industry, and 300W is more than enough
for an XP2000+. I would check the Rheobus carefully because it may be
applying too little voltage to the fans, especially at start-up, when
they need more voltage than when already running. Any properly made
fan controller will apply sufficient voltage at start-up, and it's
simple to give a high voltage kick then by having a capacitor wired
across the temperature sensor or variable resistor. Also keep in mind
that vanity computer products, like fan controllers, windows, lights,
and water cooling systems, are often poorly engineered because they're
bought mostly by ignorant people who have nothing important to do with
their computers.
 
H

Harry

What makes you think it is a PSU problem?
Click to expand...

I counldnt see what else it could be? When I turn the rheobus down a
little it boots fine. When all the fans are turned up then it
occasionally doesnt start the fans on bootup.

Harry
 
H

Harry

It is unlikely that it's your power supply if it would run one fan and boot
the computer.
Start connecing the other fans one at a time. If you get to one that yields
the same
problem, disconnect it and connect additional fans. If all fans except the
one fan run,
then disconnect all fans except the HSF fan and the "gulity" fan. If the
system fails to
boot, you've found the culprit. If the system does boot, start connecting
additional
fans. If it runs with most, but not all of your fans, you've got an
inadequate power
supply.

BTW some would consider it useful if you had mentioned the size of your
power
supply in your initial post.
Click to expand...
I did mention the spec in the original post

QuietPC (QTechnology) 300W PSU 3.3v - 20A 5v - 26A 12v - 13A

Harry
 
H

Harry

The power supply cannot possibly be the issue if the rest of the
computer operates normally, and QTechnology supplies are of very high
quality, basically beefed-up Fortron-Source supplies, which are
already among the best in the industry, and 300W is more than enough
for an XP2000+.
Click to expand...
Thank you. Nice to know...
I would check the Rheobus carefully because it may be
applying too little voltage to the fans, especially at start-up, when
they need more voltage than when already running. Any properly made
fan controller will apply sufficient voltage at start-up, and it's
simple to give a high voltage kick then by having a capacitor wired
across the temperature sensor or variable resistor.
Click to expand...
The problem seems to occur when the rheobus is turned up full. If I
set the fan speeds a little lower then the fans spin up every time it
boots.
Also keep in mind
that vanity computer products, like fan controllers, windows, lights,
and water cooling systems, are often poorly engineered because they're
bought mostly by ignorant people who have nothing important to do with
their computers.
Click to expand...
How does buying these products make them poorly engineered? I would
hardly call Antec fans poorly engineered!

I wouldnt say I had nothing better to do with my PC either. Being a
web designer, network administrator and vb programmer I have plenty to
do on my PC. Anyway, their is nothing wrong with having a PC that
looks good.

Harry
 
G

Guest

The problem seems to occur when the rheobus is turned up full.
If I set the fan speeds a little lower then the fans spin up
every time it boots.
Click to expand...

That could indicate dirty or broken variable resistors or a bad design
that's unstable at extreme settings. Old-style TV tuner cleaner from
Radio Shack may help fix the pots. With the power disconnected,
squirt some in, and rotate the pot back and forth all the way several
times. If you can't find this product, use alcohol that's at least
90% pure, then after it's evaporated completely, in about 30 minutes,
squirt some silicone lube into the pots and work them around again.
It's best to try to then seal any openings around the back of the pots
(usually where the leads come out) against dust by covering them with
tape or non-acetic-acid-cure silicone sealer (automotive type,
designated safe for oxygen sensors, such as any of the Loctite "Ultra"
types).
How does buying these products make them poorly engineered?
Click to expand...

I have no idea since I never suggested that. But ignorant customers
who are obsessed about trivial variations make easy prey for
opportunists who aren't above cutting too many corners.
I would hardly call Antec fans poorly engineered!
Click to expand...

I would hardly call Antec fans engineered by Antec. They're mostly a
marketing and service company of products made by others, such as
Channel Well for its power supplies.
I wouldnt say I had nothing better to do with my PC either.
Being a web designer, network administrator and vb programmer
I have plenty to do on my PC. Anyway, their is nothing wrong
with having a PC that looks good.
Click to expand...

How does a Rheobus make a PC look better rather than more cluttered?
Control the fans automatically and invisibly from the inside, as they
should be.
 
H

Harry

That could indicate dirty or broken variable resistors or a bad design
that's unstable at extreme settings. Old-style TV tuner cleaner from
Radio Shack may help fix the pots. With the power disconnected,
squirt some in, and rotate the pot back and forth all the way several
times. If you can't find this product, use alcohol that's at least
90% pure, then after it's evaporated completely, in about 30 minutes,
squirt some silicone lube into the pots and work them around again.
It's best to try to then seal any openings around the back of the pots
(usually where the leads come out) against dust by covering them with
tape or non-acetic-acid-cure silicone sealer (automotive type,
designated safe for oxygen sensors, such as any of the Loctite "Ultra"
types).
cheers for the info.


I have no idea since I never suggested that. But ignorant customers
who are obsessed about trivial variations make easy prey for
opportunists who aren't above cutting too many corners.
Click to expand...

I quote:
"... are often poorly engineered because they're bought mostly by
ignorant people who have nothing important to do with their
computers."

As you said, they are poorly engineered 'because' they're bought by
'ignorant' people

So an 'ignorant' person who buys one of these, is contributing to the
poor engineering that they apparently suffer from?

I would hardly call Antec fans engineered by Antec. They're mostly a
marketing and service company of products made by others, such as
Channel Well for its power supplies.
Click to expand...
Still, they are very good quality IMHO.
How does a Rheobus make a PC look better rather than more cluttered?
Control the fans automatically and invisibly from the inside, as they
should be.
Click to expand...
It means I can work (Graphics or coding) with the fans down low and
bump them up when I want to do some heavy stuff (Digital Video work)

Saves on unecessary noise, and the leds on the front look nice.

I have found thermally controlled fans too over sensitive - raising
the RPM too high too soon.

Harry
 
G

Guest

Harry said:
I quote:
"... are often poorly engineered because they're bought mostly
by ignorant people who have nothing important to do with their
computers."
Click to expand...
As you said, they are poorly engineered 'because' they're
bought by 'ignorant' people
Click to expand...

Let me try to be less ambiguous: Ignorant people don't initiate the
poor engineering but merely allow it to continue to be sold. In other
words, if consumers didn't accept so much junk, there would be less
junk sold. Similarly when I said that shoes had to be worn, that was
not a prohibition against new shoes.
It means I can work (Graphics or coding) with the fans down low and
bump them up when I want to do some heavy stuff (Digital Video work)

Saves on unecessary noise, and the leds on the front look nice.

I have found thermally controlled fans too over sensitive - raising
the RPM too high too soon.
Click to expand...

Those controllers were designed wrong if they do that to the fans, and
their engineers should have altered the resistance-temperature
response by selecting a different type of thermistor (different
sensitivity to temperature change) or by installing resistors in
series and across the thermistor. The latter is a cheap, simple
solution that was used in old electronic thermometers to make them
more linear.
 
M

Matt

Harry said:
My specs. are
QuietPC (QTechnology) 300W PSU 3.3v - 20A 5v - 26A 12v - 13A

A7V333-X mobo
XP2000 Thoroughbred
512Mb TwinMos 2700 ram
1 Deskstar 7200 120 HDD
1 Fujitsu 7200 20Gb HDD
1 Sony DVD/CDRW drive
HSF is a Zalman Cu6000 with an antec 4 LED 120mm Fan
3 more 80mm LED fans
1 UV cold cathode tube

Normal operating temps

Ambient Temp 21C
Case Temp 26C
CPU Temp 56C (58C under load - eg Quake)
Click to expand...

I don't see how a 300W system needs three case fans. I would hope that
with all those fans, your hard drives are both getting a nice cool breeze.
 
H

Harry

I don't see how a 300W system needs three case fans. I would hope that
with all those fans, your hard drives are both getting a nice cool breeze.
Click to expand...

3 fans isnt alot is it? One out the back, one in the front and a side
fan. All running at half speed unless I hammer the system, then I up
them to full speed.

The 120mm fan blows over the CPU cooler at a low 2000 rpm

Harry
 
A

Al Dykes

3 fans isnt alot is it? One out the back, one in the front and a side
fan. All running at half speed unless I hammer the system, then I up
them to full speed.

The 120mm fan blows over the CPU cooler at a low 2000 rpm

Harry
Click to expand...

56C cpu temp seems high. My vanilla AMD athlon 2100 system with one
extra fan that runs at 45C (measured by ASUSprobe). I have one extra
exhaust fan. That was an experiment, and not really necessary. (AMD
retail HSF). I don't know what your heatsink looks like, but from the
description I'd expect it to keep things cool enough to keep my beer
cold.

What's an LED fan ?

You know that all those fans and lights draw power, don't you ?
 
H

Harry

56C cpu temp seems high. My vanilla AMD athlon 2100 system with one
extra fan that runs at 45C (measured by ASUSprobe). I have one extra
exhaust fan. That was an experiment, and not really necessary. (AMD
retail HSF). I don't know what your heatsink looks like, but from the
description I'd expect it to keep things cool enough to keep my beer
cold.

What's an LED fan ?

You know that all those fans and lights draw power, don't you ?
Click to expand...

The CPU cooler is a Zalman Cu6000 flower cooler.
http://www.zalman.co.kr/english/product/cnps6000Cu.htm

I am running Motherboard Monitor so I will check with Asus Probe to
see if I get the same temps.

I rearranged some cables (and moved a HDD) last night and succeeded in
dropping the temps by 3C

As far as I can tell the power draw on the LED fans is pretty small.
Maybe I will replace them ( and be prepared for some sad faces from
the kids!)

cheers

Harry
 
M

Matt

Harry said:
3 fans isnt alot is it? One out the back, one in the front and a side
fan. All running at half speed unless I hammer the system, then I up
them to full speed.

The 120mm fan blows over the CPU cooler at a low 2000 rpm

Harry
Click to expand...

Do you think you would find that many fans in a Dell, Gateway, HP,
Compaq or other off-the-shelf system?

My Dell has a 2.4GHz P4. The case fan is combined with the CPU fan, so
I have one fan where you have four. Besides that, my PSU has one fan.
At idle the system is _very_ quiet.

Are you sure your heatsink is in good thermal contact with the CPU?

The AMD site has some recommendations for case ventilation.

Yes I think the problem may be explained by a marginal PSU. You did not
mention your video card or how much power it uses.

The situation is complicated by use of the fan controller.
 
M

Matt

Harry said:
As far as I can tell the power draw on the LED fans is pretty small.
Maybe I will replace them ( and be prepared for some sad faces from
the kids!)
Click to expand...

They will have to grow up sometime. You could substitute a lava lamp. :)
 
S

Sooky Grumper

Matt said:
Do you think you would find that many fans in a Dell, Gateway, HP,
Compaq or other off-the-shelf system?

My Dell has a 2.4GHz P4. The case fan is combined with the CPU fan, so
I have one fan where you have four. Besides that, my PSU has one fan.
At idle the system is _very_ quiet.
Click to expand...

Why are you lurking on the homebuilt NG when you buy Dells?
 
S

Sooky Grumper

Harry said:
3 fans isnt alot is it? One out the back, one in the front and a side
fan. All running at half speed unless I hammer the system, then I up
them to full speed.
Click to expand...

Not at all. I've seen OCed machines that looked like they had enough
fans to float a hovercraft. As long as they're quiet, the more the
merrier (and the better the airflow).
 
H

Harry

56C cpu temp seems high. My vanilla AMD athlon 2100 system with one
extra fan that runs at 45C (measured by ASUSprobe). I have one extra
exhaust fan. That was an experiment, and not really necessary. (AMD
retail HSF). I don't know what your heatsink looks like, but from the
description I'd expect it to keep things cool enough to keep my beer
cold.

What's an LED fan ?

You know that all those fans and lights draw power, don't you ?
Click to expand...

I have checked with Asus Probe and it shows the same temp as the
Socket (35C). Motherboard monitor shows 53C on the diode. If memory
serves me right Probe doesnt show the diode temp. but the socket temp.

Harry
 
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