Explain USB info in Device Manager ????


G

George

I have a Jetway K8M8MSR2 motherboard. It has 6 total USB ports on the
rear, none on front. 4 ports are on-board, whilst 2 ports are on a
separate mounting connected to a motherboard header. The computer is
connected to a IOGEAR GCMP1764 4-computer KVM. It has a keyboard,
mouse and a EPSON R300 printer connected to its USB's.


This is what Device Manager displays:

UNIVERSAL SERIAL BUS CONTROLLERS
GENERIC USB HUB
USB COMPOSITE DEVICE
USB COMPOSITE DEVICE
USB MASS STORAGE DEVICE
USB PRINTING SUPPORT
USB ROOT HUB
USB ROOT HUB
USB ROOT HUB
USB ROOT HUB
USB ROOT HUB
VIA REV 5 OR LATER USB UNIVERSAL HOST CONTROLLER
VIA REV 5 OR LATER USB UNIVERSAL HOST CONTROLLER
VIA REV 5 OR LATER USB UNIVERSAL HOST CONTROLLER
VIA REV 5 OR LATER USB UNIVERSAL HOST CONTROLLER
VIA USB 2.0 ENHANCED HOST CONTROLLER

I understand which entry signifies that I have USB2, although I do not
know if all USB ports are USB2. I fail to comprehend how I have five
'USB ROOT HUB' entries - I think I should have six.

Interestingly, when I turned off the Epson R300 printer, these entries
disappeared:
USB COMPOSITE DEVICE
USB MASS STORAGE DEVICE
USB PRINTING SUPPORT

How is it that a printer is 'mass storage'?
What is the other 'USB COMPOSITE DEVICE'?
What is the 'GENERIC USB HUB'?
Are the four 'VIA REV 5 OR LATER USB UNIVERSAL HOST CONTROLLER'
entries for the four on-board USB's? Why them and not the other two?

Thank you

George
 
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G

Guest

Paul wrote:

Is there any way to FORCE the computer to use the usb 2.0 enhanced host
controller?

I've got a Fry's Great Quality ZX-5360 laptop.
Has the VIA REV 5 OR LATER USB UNIVERSAL HOST CONTROLLER
I don't have the recovery disks.
Fry's can't support it.
ECS can't support it.
VIA drivers don't help.
I've even tried several other related drivers with no success.
I get no ENHANCED in the device manager list.
No usb 2.0 speed.
"this device can perform faster" dialog when plugging in a 2.0 device.
I have not reloaded XP because there's licensed software on it that I
don't want to lose.

Is there any way to FORCE the computer to use the high speed drivers?

Thanks, mike
 
P

Paul

spamme0 said:
Paul wrote:

Is there any way to FORCE the computer to use the usb 2.0 enhanced host
controller?

I've got a Fry's Great Quality ZX-5360 laptop.
Has the VIA REV 5 OR LATER USB UNIVERSAL HOST CONTROLLER
I don't have the recovery disks.
Fry's can't support it.
ECS can't support it.
VIA drivers don't help.
I've even tried several other related drivers with no success.
I get no ENHANCED in the device manager list.
No usb 2.0 speed.
"this device can perform faster" dialog when plugging in a 2.0 device.
I have not reloaded XP because there's licensed software on it that I
don't want to lose.

Is there any way to FORCE the computer to use the high speed drivers?

Thanks, mike

As of WinXP SP1, Microsoft took control of providing USB2 drivers.
That means the hardware manufacturers were prevented from doing so,
by means of the terms of some license.

The first thing to check, is the BIOS settings. Check to see if USB2
is enabled there.

If I look at my Enhanced entry, the drivers used are

usbehci.sys
usbhub.sys
usbport.sys
hccoin.dll
usbui.dll

These are all on my WinXP installer CD. The files on there are compressed,
and Microsoft changes the last character to an underscore. So, you'd be
looking for usbehci.sy_ for example.

If I look in C:\WINDOWS\inf\usbport.inf, I can see

%PCI\VEN_1106&DEV_3104&REV_51.DeviceDesc%=EHCI.Dev,PCI\VEN_1106&DEV_3104&REV_51

so again, the INF file provided with Windows, is looking for VEN 1106
and DEV 3104, which is the VIA USB2 thing.

This is on a system with WinXP SP3.

So something is preventing that device from being detected. I'd start
with the BIOS. I'm not enough of a Windows guy, to be able to tell you
what to look at next, if the BIOS is OK.

When new hardware is installed, you may see some messages at the end of
"setupapi.log". This is a small sample for VIA USB2 (slightly edited to
avoid line wrap).

#-019 Searching for hardware ID(s): pci\ven_1106&dev_3104&subsys_31041849&rev_90,
pci\ven_1106&dev_3104&subsys_31041849,
pci\ven_1106&dev_3104&cc_0c0320,
pci\ven_1106&dev_3104&cc_0c03
#-018 Searching for compatible ID(s): pci\ven_1106&dev_3104&rev_90,
pci\ven_1106&dev_3104,
pci\ven_1106&cc_0c0320,
pci\ven_1106&cc_0c03,
pci\ven_1106,pci\cc_0c0320,pci\cc_0c03
#-198 Command line processed: "C:\WINDOWS\system32\mmc.exe" C:\WINDOWS\system32\devmgmt.msc /s
#I063 Selected driver installs from section [EHCI.Dev] in "c:\windows\inf\usbport.inf".
#I320 Class GUID of device remains: {36FC9E60-C465-11CF-8056-444553540000}.
#I060 Set selected driver.

You could also check hidden devices in Device Manager, but I don't know
if a broken USB entry would end up there or not.

Paul
 
P

Paul

spamme0 said:
Paul wrote:

Is there any way to FORCE the computer to use the usb 2.0 enhanced host
controller?

I've got a Fry's Great Quality ZX-5360 laptop.
Has the VIA REV 5 OR LATER USB UNIVERSAL HOST CONTROLLER
I don't have the recovery disks.
Fry's can't support it.
ECS can't support it.
VIA drivers don't help.
I've even tried several other related drivers with no success.
I get no ENHANCED in the device manager list.
No usb 2.0 speed.
"this device can perform faster" dialog when plugging in a 2.0 device.
I have not reloaded XP because there's licensed software on it that I
don't want to lose.

Is there any way to FORCE the computer to use the high speed drivers?

Thanks, mike

Also, you can test with an alternate OS, to verify whether the hardware
is visible or not. I use Knoppix (knopper.net), a Linux LiveCD, for doing
maintenance. If you boot such a CD, then use

dmesg, lsusb, lspci

you can get info on what hardware is detected on the motherboard. That
would be a way of seeing whether USB2 was available in Linux. If Linux
detected USB2, then you'd know it was more of a software problem on
Windows.

If you get VEN and DEV info, from things like those Linux commands, you
can look up the codes here.

http://pciids.sourceforge.net/pci.ids

http://www.linux-usb.org/usb.ids

In the first of those files, I can see...

1106 VIA Technologies, Inc.
...
3104 USB 2.0

That is how you map from some numbers you may have found, to what
device they may have come from. The numbers in this case are hex.

Device Manager also has those numbers. In WinXP, they added "Details"
as a tab in the device entry, and if you select "Hardware Ids" from
the pulldown menu, you can see the numbers for a device. For
example, a VIA Rev 5 (USB 1.1) block would be Vendor 1106 and
Device 3038.

HTH,
Paul
 
G

Guest

Paul said:
spamme0 said:
Paul wrote:

Is there any way to FORCE the computer to use the usb 2.0 enhanced
host controller?

I've got a Fry's Great Quality ZX-5360 laptop.
Has the VIA REV 5 OR LATER USB UNIVERSAL HOST CONTROLLER
I don't have the recovery disks.
Fry's can't support it.
ECS can't support it.
VIA drivers don't help.
I've even tried several other related drivers with no success.
I get no ENHANCED in the device manager list.
No usb 2.0 speed.
"this device can perform faster" dialog when plugging in a 2.0 device.
I have not reloaded XP because there's licensed software on it that I
don't want to lose.

Is there any way to FORCE the computer to use the high speed drivers?

Thanks, mike

As of WinXP SP1, Microsoft took control of providing USB2 drivers.
That means the hardware manufacturers were prevented from doing so,
by means of the terms of some license.

The first thing to check, is the BIOS settings. Check to see if USB2
is enabled there.

If I look at my Enhanced entry, the drivers used are

usbehci.sys
usbhub.sys
usbport.sys
hccoin.dll
usbui.dll

These are all on my WinXP installer CD. The files on there are compressed,
and Microsoft changes the last character to an underscore. So, you'd be
looking for usbehci.sy_ for example.

If I look in C:\WINDOWS\inf\usbport.inf, I can see

%PCI\VEN_1106&DEV_3104&REV_51.DeviceDesc%=EHCI.Dev,PCI\VEN_1106&DEV_3104&REV_51


so again, the INF file provided with Windows, is looking for VEN 1106
and DEV 3104, which is the VIA USB2 thing.

This is on a system with WinXP SP3.

So something is preventing that device from being detected. I'd start
with the BIOS. I'm not enough of a Windows guy, to be able to tell you
what to look at next, if the BIOS is OK.

When new hardware is installed, you may see some messages at the end of
"setupapi.log". This is a small sample for VIA USB2 (slightly edited to
avoid line wrap).

#-019 Searching for hardware ID(s):
pci\ven_1106&dev_3104&subsys_31041849&rev_90,
pci\ven_1106&dev_3104&subsys_31041849,
pci\ven_1106&dev_3104&cc_0c0320,
pci\ven_1106&dev_3104&cc_0c03
#-018 Searching for compatible ID(s): pci\ven_1106&dev_3104&rev_90,
pci\ven_1106&dev_3104,
pci\ven_1106&cc_0c0320,
pci\ven_1106&cc_0c03,
pci\ven_1106,pci\cc_0c0320,pci\cc_0c03
#-198 Command line processed: "C:\WINDOWS\system32\mmc.exe"
C:\WINDOWS\system32\devmgmt.msc /s
#I063 Selected driver installs from section [EHCI.Dev] in
"c:\windows\inf\usbport.inf".
#I320 Class GUID of device remains: {36FC9E60-C465-11CF-8056-444553540000}.
#I060 Set selected driver.

You could also check hidden devices in Device Manager, but I don't know
if a broken USB entry would end up there or not.

Paul

Thanks,
Device manager says the usb port is vendor 1106 device 3038
which is listed as a usb1.1 controller.

But the computer spec swears that the ports are usb2.0.
There's even a FAQ entry on the Fry's site that confirms that
the ports are USB2.0 but you have to set the USB mode in the bios
to Auto, which I have done. Tried all possible usb settings in the bios.

The obvious conclusion is that Fry's lied about the spec.

I can't make Knoppix run on this system. It doesn't like the
display and I'm too inexperienced to know why.
But Puppy Linux runs. When I plug in a usb2 flash drive,
dmesg says "new usb full speed device detected".
Puppy doesn't have lsusb.

Oh, well...
thanks, mike
 
P

Paul

spamme0 said:
Thanks,
Device manager says the usb port is vendor 1106 device 3038
which is listed as a usb1.1 controller.

But the computer spec swears that the ports are usb2.0.
There's even a FAQ entry on the Fry's site that confirms that
the ports are USB2.0 but you have to set the USB mode in the bios
to Auto, which I have done. Tried all possible usb settings in the bios.

The obvious conclusion is that Fry's lied about the spec.

I can't make Knoppix run on this system. It doesn't like the
display and I'm too inexperienced to know why.
But Puppy Linux runs. When I plug in a usb2 flash drive,
dmesg says "new usb full speed device detected".
Puppy doesn't have lsusb.

Oh, well...
thanks, mike

In your first post, you claimed Device Manager had

VIA REV 5 OR LATER USB UNIVERSAL HOST CONTROLLER
VIA REV 5 OR LATER USB UNIVERSAL HOST CONTROLLER
VIA REV 5 OR LATER USB UNIVERSAL HOST CONTROLLER
VIA REV 5 OR LATER USB UNIVERSAL HOST CONTROLLER
VIA USB 2.0 ENHANCED HOST CONTROLLER

The last entry, means all ports should have USB 2.0 capability.
If you check details on that last entry, is the device working ?

These are things to check

1) BIOS setting. And since you have an "Enhanced" entry, we know
that is OK.

2) Properly installed USB stack. That is harder to check. If you
check the "setupapi.log" file, you may see pci\ven_1106&dev_3104
being installed somewhere in that file. Usually there are two
entries next to one another, as it looks to me like the driver
installation happens in two stages. If you see installations
happening on different dates, that could happen if you "reset"
the USB stack. Doing a "reset" of the stack is detailed here.

http://www.usbman.com/Guides/Cleanup Device Manager Safe Mode.htm

By removing the entries in Safe Mode, the idea is, that Windows
will reinstall the drivers for USB on the next regular boot.

3) USB2 undoubtedly works at the motherboard level. But any custom
cable assemblies with USB connectors at the end, or even external
hubs or KVMs or the like, may not have USB2 compatible components.
Some wiring assemblies have filter components, which prevent USB2
from working properly. I have a couple Antec computer cases, for
example, where the front ports won't run at USB2 rates (even though
the motherboard does run at USB2). If the hardware attempts it,
all the hardware will see, is CRC errors on the USB packets.
So it would switch back to USB 1.1.

I'd probably agree with calling Fry some bad names, if it weren't for the
fact you have one of these in Device Manager. This tells me your problem
is fixable. They could be totally inept, and install filtering components
on the computer, which prevent proper USB2 signal transmission, but what
are the odds of that happening ? I mean, if they managed to make the
computer work, then they'll also manage to route the USB signals properly
on the motherboard. The motherboard design has a lot of controlled
impedance tracks, and there are lots of other things they could screw
up, which would have caused the computer to crash.

VIA USB 2.0 ENHANCED HOST CONTROLLER

HTH,
Paul
 
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G

Guest

Paul said:
In your first post, you claimed Device Manager had

VIA REV 5 OR LATER USB UNIVERSAL HOST CONTROLLER
VIA REV 5 OR LATER USB UNIVERSAL HOST CONTROLLER
VIA REV 5 OR LATER USB UNIVERSAL HOST CONTROLLER
VIA REV 5 OR LATER USB UNIVERSAL HOST CONTROLLER
VIA USB 2.0 ENHANCED HOST CONTROLLER

Nope, that was George's information. I hijacked the thread.
Nowhere in my system can I find "enhanced".
The last entry, means all ports should have USB 2.0 capability.
If you check details on that last entry, is the device working ?

These are things to check

1) BIOS setting. And since you have an "Enhanced" entry, we know
that is OK.

There's nothing in the bios except to select whether legacy usb
support is enabled, disabled or auto. Tried 'em all.
2) Properly installed USB stack. That is harder to check. If you
check the "setupapi.log" file, you may see pci\ven_1106&dev_3104
being installed somewhere in that file. Usually there are two
entries next to one another, as it looks to me like the driver
installation happens in two stages. If you see installations
happening on different dates, that could happen if you "reset"
the USB stack. Doing a "reset" of the stack is detailed here.


http://www.usbman.com/Guides/Cleanup Device Manager Safe Mode.htm

By removing the entries in Safe Mode, the idea is, that Windows
will reinstall the drivers for USB on the next regular boot.

I've removed the usb devices multiple times. I think I also tried
safe mode, but I can try it again.
3) USB2 undoubtedly works at the motherboard level. But any custom
cable assemblies with USB connectors at the end, or even external
hubs or KVMs or the like, may not have USB2 compatible components.
Some wiring assemblies have filter components, which prevent USB2
from working properly. I have a couple Antec computer cases, for
example, where the front ports won't run at USB2 rates (even though
the motherboard does run at USB2). If the hardware attempts it,
all the hardware will see, is CRC errors on the USB packets.
So it would switch back to USB 1.1.

This is a laptop, so what's there ain't changeable.
I'd probably agree with calling Fry some bad names, if it weren't for the
fact you have one of these in Device Manager.

Nope, I don't...that was George's system.

This tells me your problem
 
P

Paul

spamme0 said:
Nope, I don't...that was George's system.

OK, so start with a hardware inventory of your ZX-5360.

What chipset does it use ? What does Everest tell you ?

*******

OK, I can see your system here.

http://www.fryssupport.net/ZX-5360.cfm

VIA K8N800+VT8235M-CE
4- USB 2.0 ports [would be on VT8235M-CE]

Check with Everest, and see if it agrees.

HTH,
Paul
 
G

Guest

Paul said:
spamme0 said:
Nope, I don't...that was George's system.

OK, so start with a hardware inventory of your ZX-5360.

What chipset does it use ? What does Everest tell you ?

*******

OK, I can see your system here.

http://www.fryssupport.net/ZX-5360.cfm

VIA K8N800+VT8235M-CE
4- USB 2.0 ports [would be on VT8235M-CE]

Check with Everest, and see if it agrees.

HTH,
Paul


Do programs like Everest actually interrogate the hardware?
Or do they just ask the OS what it installed?

I downloaded the Everest trial and will install it.

I've been using SIW and PC Wizard

SIW gives me these answers:
Under USB ports it finds Via Rev 5 or greater 1106/3038
Under hardware info, it says it's a K8M400 CPU to PCI bridge
and VT8235 PCI to ISA bridge.
Under PCI, it claims to have a VT82xxxxx UHCI USB 1.1 Controller (All
VIA chipsets)


Fry's and SIW disagree over what USB support is provided.
mike
 
P

Paul

spamme0 said:
Paul said:
spamme0 said:
Nope, I don't...that was George's system.

OK, so start with a hardware inventory of your ZX-5360.

What chipset does it use ? What does Everest tell you ?

*******

OK, I can see your system here.

http://www.fryssupport.net/ZX-5360.cfm

VIA K8N800+VT8235M-CE
4- USB 2.0 ports [would be on VT8235M-CE]

Check with Everest, and see if it agrees.

HTH,
Paul


Do programs like Everest actually interrogate the hardware?
Or do they just ask the OS what it installed?

I downloaded the Everest trial and will install it.

I've been using SIW and PC Wizard

SIW gives me these answers:
Under USB ports it finds Via Rev 5 or greater 1106/3038
Under hardware info, it says it's a K8M400 CPU to PCI bridge
and VT8235 PCI to ISA bridge.
Under PCI, it claims to have a VT82xxxxx UHCI USB 1.1 Controller (All
VIA chipsets)


Fry's and SIW disagree over what USB support is provided.
mike

I was not able to find a specific product page for VT8235M-CE.

What I did do, is check the specs for a few other things
that use VT8235M-CE, and they claim to have 4 USB2 ports as
well.

OK, I went back to the Fry's site, and they've already
answered this question :) Have a look.

http://www.fryssupport.net/supportZX5360.cfm

"please make sure the “Legacy USB support” option in
the bios advance setup is set to AUTO"

HTH,
Paul
 
G

Guest

Paul said:
spamme0 said:
Paul said:
spamme0 wrote:


Nope, I don't...that was George's system.


OK, so start with a hardware inventory of your ZX-5360.

What chipset does it use ? What does Everest tell you ?

*******

OK, I can see your system here.

http://www.fryssupport.net/ZX-5360.cfm

VIA K8N800+VT8235M-CE
4- USB 2.0 ports [would be on VT8235M-CE]

Check with Everest, and see if it agrees.

HTH,
Paul


Do programs like Everest actually interrogate the hardware?
Or do they just ask the OS what it installed?

I downloaded the Everest trial and will install it.

I've been using SIW and PC Wizard

SIW gives me these answers:
Under USB ports it finds Via Rev 5 or greater 1106/3038
Under hardware info, it says it's a K8M400 CPU to PCI bridge
and VT8235 PCI to ISA bridge.
Under PCI, it claims to have a VT82xxxxx UHCI USB 1.1 Controller (All
VIA chipsets)


Fry's and SIW disagree over what USB support is provided.
mike

I was not able to find a specific product page for VT8235M-CE.

What I did do, is check the specs for a few other things
that use VT8235M-CE, and they claim to have 4 USB2 ports as
well.

OK, I went back to the Fry's site, and they've already
answered this question :) Have a look.

http://www.fryssupport.net/supportZX5360.cfm

"please make sure the “Legacy USB support” option in
the bios advance setup is set to AUTO"

Yes, that was the first thing I tried.
I previously said that I'd tried that more than once. Tried on/off/auto
nothing works.

Still haven't had a chance to retry deleting drivers in safe mode.
I'll get on it.

I'm wondering if I might have to set the legacy support to auto mode
BEFORE windows gets installed.
PITA to try it, but I don't have a better idea.
mike
 
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P

Paul

spamme0 said:
Paul said:
spamme0 said:
Paul wrote:
spamme0 wrote:


Nope, I don't...that was George's system.


OK, so start with a hardware inventory of your ZX-5360.

What chipset does it use ? What does Everest tell you ?

*******

OK, I can see your system here.

http://www.fryssupport.net/ZX-5360.cfm

VIA K8N800+VT8235M-CE
4- USB 2.0 ports [would be on VT8235M-CE]

Check with Everest, and see if it agrees.

HTH,
Paul


Do programs like Everest actually interrogate the hardware?
Or do they just ask the OS what it installed?

I downloaded the Everest trial and will install it.

I've been using SIW and PC Wizard

SIW gives me these answers:
Under USB ports it finds Via Rev 5 or greater 1106/3038
Under hardware info, it says it's a K8M400 CPU to PCI bridge
and VT8235 PCI to ISA bridge.
Under PCI, it claims to have a VT82xxxxx UHCI USB 1.1 Controller (All
VIA chipsets)


Fry's and SIW disagree over what USB support is provided.
mike

I was not able to find a specific product page for VT8235M-CE.

What I did do, is check the specs for a few other things
that use VT8235M-CE, and they claim to have 4 USB2 ports as
well.

OK, I went back to the Fry's site, and they've already
answered this question :) Have a look.

http://www.fryssupport.net/supportZX5360.cfm

"please make sure the “Legacy USB support” option in
the bios advance setup is set to AUTO"

Yes, that was the first thing I tried.
I previously said that I'd tried that more than once. Tried on/off/auto
nothing works.

Still haven't had a chance to retry deleting drivers in safe mode.
I'll get on it.

I'm wondering if I might have to set the legacy support to auto mode
BEFORE windows gets installed.
PITA to try it, but I don't have a better idea.
mike
HTH,
Paul

There is no point deleting the USB stack just yet.

I believe you should be able to see "pci\ven_1106&dev_3104", the
identity of the USB2, in Everest, even before a driver is installed.
There would not be much point in trying to install it, unless it
claims to be present. This is the Everest I use (it is old, but
for newer hardware which isn't identified, I can still use the ven/dev
info).

http://majorgeeks.com/download4181.html

For example, on my VIA chipset, if I look in Devices:pCI Devices,
I can see the VIA USB 2.0 Enhanced Host Controller, with Device ID
1106-3104. If I saw that, then I'd know that efforts to install
it could succeed. If the device is still not listed, then the
problem (as described by Fry's), is still in the BIOS.

Also, have a look in "setupapi.log" file, and search for "3104".
See if at any point, the OS has attempted to deal with that hardware.
Maybe a partial explanation is already in setupapi.log.

Paul
 
G

Guest

Paul said:
spamme0 said:
Paul said:
spamme0 wrote:
Paul wrote:
spamme0 wrote:


Nope, I don't...that was George's system.


OK, so start with a hardware inventory of your ZX-5360.

What chipset does it use ? What does Everest tell you ?

*******

OK, I can see your system here.

http://www.fryssupport.net/ZX-5360.cfm

VIA K8N800+VT8235M-CE
4- USB 2.0 ports [would be on VT8235M-CE]

Check with Everest, and see if it agrees.

HTH,
Paul


Do programs like Everest actually interrogate the hardware?
Or do they just ask the OS what it installed?

I downloaded the Everest trial and will install it.

I've been using SIW and PC Wizard

SIW gives me these answers:
Under USB ports it finds Via Rev 5 or greater 1106/3038
Under hardware info, it says it's a K8M400 CPU to PCI bridge
and VT8235 PCI to ISA bridge.
Under PCI, it claims to have a VT82xxxxx UHCI USB 1.1 Controller
(All VIA chipsets)


Fry's and SIW disagree over what USB support is provided.
mike

I was not able to find a specific product page for VT8235M-CE.

What I did do, is check the specs for a few other things
that use VT8235M-CE, and they claim to have 4 USB2 ports as
well.

OK, I went back to the Fry's site, and they've already
answered this question :) Have a look.

http://www.fryssupport.net/supportZX5360.cfm

"please make sure the “Legacy USB support” option in
the bios advance setup is set to AUTO"

Yes, that was the first thing I tried.
I previously said that I'd tried that more than once. Tried on/off/auto
nothing works.

Still haven't had a chance to retry deleting drivers in safe mode.
I'll get on it.

I'm wondering if I might have to set the legacy support to auto mode
BEFORE windows gets installed.
PITA to try it, but I don't have a better idea.
mike
HTH,
Paul

There is no point deleting the USB stack just yet.

I believe you should be able to see "pci\ven_1106&dev_3104", the
identity of the USB2, in Everest, even before a driver is installed.
There would not be much point in trying to install it, unless it
claims to be present. This is the Everest I use (it is old, but
for newer hardware which isn't identified, I can still use the ven/dev
info).

http://majorgeeks.com/download4181.html

For example, on my VIA chipset, if I look in Devices:pCI Devices,
I can see the VIA USB 2.0 Enhanced Host Controller, with Device ID
1106-3104. If I saw that, then I'd know that efforts to install
it could succeed. If the device is still not listed, then the
problem (as described by Fry's), is still in the BIOS.

Also, have a look in "setupapi.log" file, and search for "3104".
See if at any point, the OS has attempted to deal with that hardware.
Maybe a partial explanation is already in setupapi.log.

Paul

Ok, I blew away windows and did a fresh install of XPHomeSP3.
I installed everest 220.
It gives me more detail of the same info.
The USB Controller is pci/ven_1106&dev_3038&SUBSYS_0F601019&REV_80
PCI Devidce is VIA VT83C572 PCI-USB Controller

IRQ is 21
There are three instances of USB host controller sharing INT21. Nothing
else.
Port is E400-E41F

The chipset now shows as VIA K8M800/K8N800 Chipset

Still no mention of "enhanced" in device manager.
Still get "this device can perform faster..." when inserting
my flash drive.

I searched setupapi.log for 3104. No hits.
I get many instances of 3038 in the usb section.
Searching for "enhanced" gets two hits in the keyboard section.
No hits on "ehci".

Your comments suggest that the device ID's are read from the bios
and not the chips themselves??? That gets me back to my very first
question. Is there any way to override that info and FORCE windows
to use the enhanced driver? I've already blown away the OS. As long
as I don't actually write anything to CMOS, I've got nothing to lose.

I guess I should mention that I did find a BIOS update for the ECS-536.
I'm afraid to apply it lest I brick the Fry's variant 536S.
I'd rather have a working computer with USB1.1.
If the Fry's machine shipped with USB2.0, the existing BIOS should at
least load the right drivers. I tried to edit the hardware ID strings
in regedit, but it won't let me. Probably just as well ;-)

Color me frustrated...
I also feel like I'm wasting a bunch of your time.
I appreciate the effort.
Any other ideas?
Thanks, mike
 
P

Paul

spamme0 said:
Paul said:
spamme0 said:
Paul wrote:
spamme0 wrote:
Paul wrote:
spamme0 wrote:


Nope, I don't...that was George's system.


OK, so start with a hardware inventory of your ZX-5360.

What chipset does it use ? What does Everest tell you ?

*******

OK, I can see your system here.

http://www.fryssupport.net/ZX-5360.cfm

VIA K8N800+VT8235M-CE
4- USB 2.0 ports [would be on VT8235M-CE]

Check with Everest, and see if it agrees.

HTH,
Paul


Do programs like Everest actually interrogate the hardware?
Or do they just ask the OS what it installed?

I downloaded the Everest trial and will install it.

I've been using SIW and PC Wizard

SIW gives me these answers:
Under USB ports it finds Via Rev 5 or greater 1106/3038
Under hardware info, it says it's a K8M400 CPU to PCI bridge
and VT8235 PCI to ISA bridge.
Under PCI, it claims to have a VT82xxxxx UHCI USB 1.1 Controller
(All VIA chipsets)


Fry's and SIW disagree over what USB support is provided.
mike

I was not able to find a specific product page for VT8235M-CE.

What I did do, is check the specs for a few other things
that use VT8235M-CE, and they claim to have 4 USB2 ports as
well.

OK, I went back to the Fry's site, and they've already
answered this question :) Have a look.

http://www.fryssupport.net/supportZX5360.cfm

"please make sure the “Legacy USB support” option in
the bios advance setup is set to AUTO"

Yes, that was the first thing I tried.
I previously said that I'd tried that more than once. Tried on/off/auto
nothing works.

Still haven't had a chance to retry deleting drivers in safe mode.
I'll get on it.

I'm wondering if I might have to set the legacy support to auto mode
BEFORE windows gets installed.
PITA to try it, but I don't have a better idea.
mike

HTH,
Paul

There is no point deleting the USB stack just yet.

I believe you should be able to see "pci\ven_1106&dev_3104", the
identity of the USB2, in Everest, even before a driver is installed.
There would not be much point in trying to install it, unless it
claims to be present. This is the Everest I use (it is old, but
for newer hardware which isn't identified, I can still use the ven/dev
info).

http://majorgeeks.com/download4181.html

For example, on my VIA chipset, if I look in Devices:pCI Devices,
I can see the VIA USB 2.0 Enhanced Host Controller, with Device ID
1106-3104. If I saw that, then I'd know that efforts to install
it could succeed. If the device is still not listed, then the
problem (as described by Fry's), is still in the BIOS.

Also, have a look in "setupapi.log" file, and search for "3104".
See if at any point, the OS has attempted to deal with that hardware.
Maybe a partial explanation is already in setupapi.log.

Paul

Ok, I blew away windows and did a fresh install of XPHomeSP3.
I installed everest 220.
It gives me more detail of the same info.
The USB Controller is pci/ven_1106&dev_3038&SUBSYS_0F601019&REV_80
PCI Devidce is VIA VT83C572 PCI-USB Controller

IRQ is 21
There are three instances of USB host controller sharing INT21. Nothing
else.
Port is E400-E41F

The chipset now shows as VIA K8M800/K8N800 Chipset

Still no mention of "enhanced" in device manager.
Still get "this device can perform faster..." when inserting
my flash drive.

I searched setupapi.log for 3104. No hits.
I get many instances of 3038 in the usb section.
Searching for "enhanced" gets two hits in the keyboard section.
No hits on "ehci".

Your comments suggest that the device ID's are read from the bios
and not the chips themselves??? That gets me back to my very first
question. Is there any way to override that info and FORCE windows
to use the enhanced driver? I've already blown away the OS. As long
as I don't actually write anything to CMOS, I've got nothing to lose.

I guess I should mention that I did find a BIOS update for the ECS-536.
I'm afraid to apply it lest I brick the Fry's variant 536S.
I'd rather have a working computer with USB1.1.
If the Fry's machine shipped with USB2.0, the existing BIOS should at
least load the right drivers. I tried to edit the hardware ID strings
in regedit, but it won't let me. Probably just as well ;-)

Color me frustrated...
I also feel like I'm wasting a bunch of your time.
I appreciate the effort.
Any other ideas?
Thanks, mike

Enumerations are read directly from the hardware. Or at least I hope they
are, because it would be pretty useless if Everest was just mining
WinXP for info.

In the lab, on embedded computers, our startup code probes each PCI
slot address, and says "anybody home ?". If a device responds, and
further probes in the config space, extract information, then you know
there is a device present. A methodical probing, checking everywhere,
ensures that everything that can be detected, is detected.

A number of hardware buses support that kind of probing. Some bus
standards provide less info than others (which makes it a bit harder
to be sure what is sitting on the bus - an example is the kind of
thing Speedfan does, when it looks for fan controllers - the enumeration
recipe is rather complicated).

Your evidence suggests, the Fry's BIOS is leaving USB2 disabled. Hardware
devices may have a mechanism, where the BIOS can set a bit in the registers
of the device, to prevent it from responding to later probes. The Fry's
BIOS could be doing that. And that could be why the "3104" is not responding.

Having the BIOS fiddle with the controls, is not absolute. For example,
on my motherboard, I can disable the IDE devices in the BIOS (in an attempt
to make my hard drive invisible), and Linux can still find the disk drives.
So Linux could turn the interfaces back on again, which I didn't want.
In the case of the Windows ATI video driver, the ATI software is able to change
AGP settings on the fly (so attempts to set the BIOS to AGP 4X, could be
met by the ATI driver setting the AGP slot to AGP 8X). It is not, like
what the BIOS is doing, is absolute. If that bit is flipped later,
and the hardware rescanned, the hardware could then be discovered.

My conclusion at this point, is the BIOS is to blame. I don't see this
as a hardware problem as such.

There are other methods, for the BIOS to pass info about hardware, to the
operating system. For example, for "standard" hardware devices, the BIOS
passes "ACPI objects" via ACPI data tables. At least some of the Everest
entries you see, will be of that type. Your USB entries however, are
sitting on the bus (sort of a PCI bus, but internal to the
chipset), and they should be detectable via bus probes that
return four instances of 1106-3038 and one instance of 1106-3104.
The fact that the 1106-3038 is fully working, suggests the problem
is that 1106-3104 is turned off by the BIOS.

Is there a tool to fix this ? Yes, there is.

A number of years ago, people used WPCREDIT by H.Oda, to change
the registers in their chipset. You need someone to map out the
chipset for you, and tell you *exactly* which byte to change.
Changing any adjacent bytes, can cause the computer to crash
instantly. So there is a tool -- but it is a lot like playing
with dynamite in a dark room. You would flip a bit to turn
on USB2, then rescan in Device Manager and see if new hardware
was detected. That would be the basic method.

http://hp.vector.co.jp/authors/VA002374/img/soft/wpcredit.jpg

http://hp.vector.co.jp/authors/VA002374/src/download.html

http://www.h-oda.com/

Example of hacking with WPCREDIT, back in the day.

http://www.sudhian.com/index.php?/articles/show/VIA_Apollo_Pro_memory_tweak_guide/

http://www.sudhian.com/index.php?/articles/show/VIA_Apollo_Pro_memory_tweak_guide/page_2

(There is a companion tool called WPCRSET, to apply the changes each
time the OS starts up. It is mentioned in this article. This isn't important
right now, because you're not likely to get a PCR file with register
definitions to make editing in WPCREDIT easy.)

http://www.myplc.com/sony/agp_aperture.htm

Modern OSes make this kind of hacking more difficult, by requiring
something to punch through "Ring 0" protection, so you can edit
the hardware values. As a consequence, I wouldn't want to guess as
to which OSes WPCREDIT currently works with. If the program
is prepared for this possibility, it may have a copy of "giveio" or
the like, to allow the program to edit hardware. Normally, software
programs don't control hardware directly, they go through restrictive
drivers.

The only danger from spontaneously crashing your OS, is the possibility
that the file system will be corrupted. As long as you have a good
backup plan, or recovery media, then you should be good-to-go. For example,
if you somehow wiped out the partition table on the hard drive, you'd want
a restoration method, which can put every byte of the hard drive, back
in place.

The level of danger, depends on the reliability of the chip register map
you've got to work with. Intel makes this simple, as Intel offers datasheets,
so you can do all the work yourself. Companies like VIA, don't give out
datasheets to just anyone. You need a business card, and a pesky
salesman will call on you, and so on...

*******

BIOS flashing is equally dangerous. It can be made less dangerous,
with devices such as "BIOS Savior" from ioss.com.tw . But for a laptop,
that isn't an option (no room physically).

Installing one of these, gives you an extra BIOS flash memory chip.
It allows flashing experimental BIOS files, and if the flash fails,
you flip a selector switch, and return to the "good working" BIOS chip.
This is how people used to work with Nforce2 boards, to test out BIOS
files. (Now that many desktop boards use smaller serial BIOS chips,
this product is physically no longer compatible. But in its time,
if you were a BIOS hacker, it was money well spent.)

http://www.ioss.com.tw/web/English/RD1BIOSSavior.html

*******

I get the impression, you know the Fry's machine is the same as some
ECS machine. You need to find a forum where people have experimented
with the machine, and know the ECS BIOS will "take" if you flash it.
You also need to know what the odds are of "bricking" the machine,
with the tools provided. At the very least, when playing with the BIOS,
your very first step, is to archive the existing BIOS contents, then
place that file somewhere, where you can find it in an emergency.
For example, a backup of my original motherboard BIOS, is sitting on the root
of my C:\ drive, (which I made a FAT32 volume on purpose). If necessary,
I can boot using my DOS floppy, and the original BIOS is there if I need
to flash back to factory conditions. So bare minimum, don't use any
flashing tool, unless it has an option to archive the existing BIOS
file. In some cases, once you flash the new BIOS (like the ECS), you
may not be able to go back to the "Fry's" BIOS. That depends on the
identity string. Some flasher tools have a "force" option, to flash
regardless of identity. If Fry's is simply shipping an ECS barebones,
with their name on it, it may be using the ECS BIOS provided with the
product, rather than rewriting or changing it. So it could just be
an ordinary ECS BIOS all along.

Note that, when you flash a BIOS, then restart the computer at least once,
the "image" inside the BIOS chip, won't match what you burned. A couple
small sections of the BIOS chip are writable at the startup of the computer,
and DMI/ESCD live there. Thus, if attempting to "compare" BIOS files,
remember that for two BIOS to be "equal", not all the bytes have to
match. Only the executable code sections would have to match, for the
BIOS to be "equal". Anything which is regularly updated, should not be
part of an equivalence check. I learned this the hard way, by
experimenting, and finding my new BIOS didn't seem to be the same
any more :)

Good luck,
Paul
 
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G

Guest

Paul wrote:
snipped very detailed help.
Good luck,
Paul

Thanks, Paul for your efforts. I've learned a few things.
One of which is that I haven't nearly the motivation to
go that deep into fixing it.

I've asked around online and off. I can't find anyone with
this computer. If I could find the original disks that came
with it, there may be something there that would fix it.
Otherwise, they'd have had them all returned.

Thanks again.
I'm givin' up.
mike
 

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