Eula being challenged

  • Thread starter Thread starter Greg R
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G

Greg R

I get the eff.org news letter. I am just providing this as
information purposes only. No derogatory comments are meant in
anyway. This is not spam. I have nothing against Microsoft.

Greg R


Eula being challenged



His is a copy of that
=================

* EFF Warns Consumers about the Dangers of EULAs

New White Paper Outlines How Click-Through Agreements
Erode Privacy, Fundamental Liberties

San Francisco - EFF this week released a white paper warning
consumers about how they can be harmed by end user license
agreements (EULAs) for consumer electronics and online
services. Many EULAs contain terms that damage consumer
interests, including invitations for vendors to snoop on
users' computers, prohibitions on publicly criticizing
the product in question, and bans on customizing or even
repairing purchased devices.

"Overbroad EULAs are one of the greatest threats to
consumer rights in the high tech industry," said Annalee
Newitz, EFF policy analyst and author of the white paper.
"Few people realize that simply visiting a website or
downloading a software update may constitute 'agreeing'
to a EULA that permits third parties to monitor your
communications or allows a vendor to dictate what you
can or cannot do with the product you've bought. Clicking
the 'I Agree' button may mean clicking away your privacy,
freedom of speech, or other rights."

EULAs, often called "click-through agreements," have
become ubiquitous in the technology industry. While
they are supposed to bind consumers to strict terms
dictated by vendors, consumers don't negotiate them,
don't sign them, and in many cases can't even read them
until after they've bought the product, taken it home,
and opened up the package.

EFF's white paper, "Dangerous Terms - A User's Guide to
EULAs," comes at a key juncture in the case of Davidson
v. Internet Gateway (commonly known as Blizzard v.
Bnetd), a lawsuit that tests whether EULAs can override
protections under federal copyright law such as the
fair use doctrine. Lawyers for Davidson (Blizzard) will
argue in a brief filed this week that three open source
programmers violated the company's EULA when they
reverse-engineered Blizzard video games to create bnetd, a
free, interoperable game server - even though
reverse-engineering is a legal fair use. EFF is
serving as co-counsel defending the programmers in
the case, which is currently on appeal in the Eighth
Circuit.

EFF is also in the process of devising legal strategies
to challenge EULAs. This white paper is intended to
educate the public, but also to serve as a call to arms
for consumers who want to fight unfair terms in EULAs.
EFF invites people who have been harmed by EULA terms,
or who have been threatened with lawsuits for violating
terms in EULAs, to contact EFF with their stories.

Consumers harmed by EULAs can contact EFF at:
[see article for email]

For this release:
<http://www.eff.org/news/archives/2005_02.php#002412>

EFF white paper: "Dangerous Terms - A User's Guide to
EULAs":
<http://eff.org/wp/eula.php>

Blizzard v. BnetD case archive:
<http://www.eff.org/IP/Emulation/Blizzard_v_bnetd/>
=======================
 
It will be interesting to see how this plays out in the courts, but in the
end, the consumer will win out. Either by changes to the status quo or
simple user migration. If EULAs become so detrimental to end-users that it
becomes intolerable, people will eventually stop using the product.

In the meantime, until the judicial system catches up with technology,
companies are going to, as they have always done, protect their own
financial interests as much as possible and as much as they can get away
with.

Microsoft's own EULAs could be interpreted as extremely restrictive and
unreasonable (as some in these NG's have), but how many cases of MS going
after an end-user have you seen? One could argue that just because they
haven't doesn't mean they won't...but MS has to protect what they deem to be
their property to remain profitable. They are, after all, a corporate
entity that lives and dies on the bottom line. You cannot fault them for
turning a profit. Were they not to protect their property, they could stand
to lose that profitability. Without that, who develops the product?

"Open source" and "free" may be the buzz-words that surround Linux distros,
but they aren't really free if you dig deep enough. They just charge
differently than MS does. And most developers working on it aren't doing it
for free, either. Most of Torvald's so-called "Lieutenants" all work for
one big company or another and get paid for the development that they put
into Linux. Development that those companies either use in-house to enhance
their profits or sell to a consumer.

If MS were to somehow "go away", some other big *evil* corporation would
quickly fill the void.
 
"for consumer electronics and online services" -- I wonder "consumer
electronics" equates to retail software -- I imagine it will, eventually.

It'll be interesting to see how this turns out.

--
LB



Greg R said:
I get the eff.org news letter. I am just providing this as
information purposes only. No derogatory comments are meant in
anyway. This is not spam. I have nothing against Microsoft.

Greg R


Eula being challenged



His is a copy of that
=================

* EFF Warns Consumers about the Dangers of EULAs

New White Paper Outlines How Click-Through Agreements
Erode Privacy, Fundamental Liberties

San Francisco - EFF this week released a white paper warning
consumers about how they can be harmed by end user license
agreements (EULAs) for consumer electronics and online
services. Many EULAs contain terms that damage consumer
interests, including invitations for vendors to snoop on
users' computers, prohibitions on publicly criticizing
the product in question, and bans on customizing or even
repairing purchased devices.

"Overbroad EULAs are one of the greatest threats to
consumer rights in the high tech industry," said Annalee
Newitz, EFF policy analyst and author of the white paper.
"Few people realize that simply visiting a website or
downloading a software update may constitute 'agreeing'
to a EULA that permits third parties to monitor your
communications or allows a vendor to dictate what you
can or cannot do with the product you've bought. Clicking
the 'I Agree' button may mean clicking away your privacy,
freedom of speech, or other rights."

EULAs, often called "click-through agreements," have
become ubiquitous in the technology industry. While
they are supposed to bind consumers to strict terms
dictated by vendors, consumers don't negotiate them,
don't sign them, and in many cases can't even read them
until after they've bought the product, taken it home,
and opened up the package.

EFF's white paper, "Dangerous Terms - A User's Guide to
EULAs," comes at a key juncture in the case of Davidson
v. Internet Gateway (commonly known as Blizzard v.
Bnetd), a lawsuit that tests whether EULAs can override
protections under federal copyright law such as the
fair use doctrine. Lawyers for Davidson (Blizzard) will
argue in a brief filed this week that three open source
programmers violated the company's EULA when they
reverse-engineered Blizzard video games to create bnetd, a
free, interoperable game server - even though
reverse-engineering is a legal fair use. EFF is
serving as co-counsel defending the programmers in
the case, which is currently on appeal in the Eighth
Circuit.

EFF is also in the process of devising legal strategies
to challenge EULAs. This white paper is intended to
educate the public, but also to serve as a call to arms
for consumers who want to fight unfair terms in EULAs.
EFF invites people who have been harmed by EULA terms,
or who have been threatened with lawsuits for violating
terms in EULAs, to contact EFF with their stories.

Consumers harmed by EULAs can contact EFF at:
[see article for email]

For this release:
<http://www.eff.org/news/archives/2005_02.php#002412>

EFF white paper: "Dangerous Terms - A User's Guide to
EULAs":
<http://eff.org/wp/eula.php>

Blizzard v. BnetD case archive:
<http://www.eff.org/IP/Emulation/Blizzard_v_bnetd/>
=======================
Click to expand...
 
Greg said:
I get the eff.org news letter. I am just providing this as
information purposes only. No derogatory comments are meant in
anyway. This is not spam. I have nothing against Microsoft.

Greg R


Eula being challenged
Click to expand...
But seriously now. How many people actually read and comprehend it to begin
with. I know I have never thought how it would effect my lifestyle while I
was waiting for files to install on any piece of SW :)

J.
 
oh and the only eula i had to agree to when installing was the one from
macromedia flash . actually i cant find ANY licencing restrictions in the
manuals or box or web site .

oh and did i meantion i installed this as a dual boot on my LAPTOP!!! w/o
installing any additional drivers ?
 
oh and the only eula i had to agree to when installing was the one from
macromedia flash . actually i cant find ANY licencing restrictions in the
manuals or box or web site .

oh and did i meantion i installed this as a dual boot on my LAPTOP!!! w/o
installing any additional drivers ?
Click to expand...
Woody do you have a ps2 slot for your mouse? If you have a ps2 slot.
You might trying buying a cheap mouse. Should work with both oses.
Linux is still having problems with detecting usb items but they are
improving. You might see if there is a usb.rpm for your mouse.

Greg R
 
But seriously now. How many people actually read and comprehend it to begin
with. I know I have never thought how it would effect my lifestyle while I
was waiting for files to install on any piece of SW :)
Click to expand...


Some those eula, I don’t even understand. I maybe violating the eula
of some software without even knowing. I am not talking about
Microsoft products

Greg R
 
hey greg r. , lol, actually my name is greg s ;-) and nope , its a bottom
line dell that i just bought for keeping in touch on the road , but use it
for testing stuff . always thought linux was just for geeks with waaay to
much time on there hands and while i love playing with new things time is
not something i have an excess of , but really suprised at this SuSE distro
.. while not quite ready for the mass markets , its not too far off . and if
ms thinks they'll have a monopoly forever they are saddly mistaken . people
will catch on .
 
DJ said:
but in the
end, the consumer will win out
Click to expand...

do you REALLY think so ? i wish i was that optomistic

<"Open source" and "free" may be the buzz-words that surround Linux distros,
but they aren't really free if you dig deep enough.  They just charge 
differently than MS does.>

yup , replying to this on my laptop on which i just installed SuSE linux
pro , bought it retail $89 yesterday , 2 dvds 5 cds , 2 incredibly well
written manuals that total over 3 ins thick and over a thousand apps .
and while it is a little bit of a learning experience , it's just as warm
and fuzzy as xp . other than a manual config of my lan and the scroll on my
mouse isnt working yet , i totally love it ;-)
 
Woody said:
do you REALLY think so ? i wish i was that optomistic
Click to expand...

Yeah, I am. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think capitalism will always win out in
the end. And, if capitalism wins out, then consumerism has won out. And
consumerism is what drives development. Just a long chain of events where,
eventually, the companies that want to stay competitive produce what the
majority of people want. That's how MS got where it is today. And if they
want to stay that way, they'll continue to produce what's wanted - maybe not
by everybody, but by most people.
yup , replying to this on my laptop on which i just installed SuSE linux
Click to expand...

Don't get me wrong...I'm actually glad to hear you're using SuSE
successfully. To be honest, I'm currently triple-booting my laptop with XP
Pro, XP x64 and SuSE 9.2. I was immensely impressed with how easily SuSE
loaded on my laptop, and haven't had any serious problems with it. But, and
this is a big but, I just don't think it's ready for prime time yet. There
remain too many issues with cross-platform compatibility to work out and too
many instances where a user just *has* to go to a terminal window. I don't
think the average end-user wants to do that. Try, for example, to get a
wireless NIC up and running. Sometimes, it's easy. Most times, though, it
requires at least some amount of tinkering. And in some cases, it requires
getting down and dirty with the kernel. Compare that to Windows where, for
the most part, though not every time by any means, it just works. The
end-user doesn't care *why* or *how* -- they just want it to work and work
consistently.

Denigrate MS as much as you want (and that's a general "you", not pointed at
anyone specific) but I think they've gone a long way towards building the
stability people are after. No easy feat considering the wide array of
devices available.
 
hey greg r. , lol, actually my name is greg s ;-) and nope , its a bottom
line dell that i just bought for keeping in touch on the road , but use it
for testing stuff . always thought linux was just for geeks with waaay to
much time on there hands and while i love playing with new things time is
not something i have an excess of , but really suprised at this SuSE distro
. while not quite ready for the mass markets , its not too far off . and if
ms thinks they'll have a monopoly forever they are saddly mistaken . people
will catch on .
Click to expand...

Woody
Oh, It dell mouse. Try a cheap standard mouse and plug-in to the ps2
slot. It should work for xp as well as suse.
 
DJ said:
Yeah, I am. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think capitalism will always win
out in the end. And, if capitalism wins out, then consumerism has
won out. And consumerism is what drives development. Just a long
chain of events where, eventually, the companies that want to stay
competitive produce what the majority of people want. That's how MS
got where it is today. And if they want to stay that way, they'll
continue to produce what's wanted - maybe not by everybody, but by
most people.
Click to expand...

We have the Sherman Anti-Trust act for a reason. The end result of a
"free" market can be monopolism. We learned around a hundred years ago
that to stop a "free" market from turning into a monopolistic one,
governmental intervention is sometimes required to restore a "fair"
market, as the DOJ and the courts did with MS. Personally I didn't
think they went far enough, but in the final analysis I may have been
wrong. It slowed MS down enough, so that it did give competition time
to start catching up. And MS is definitely looking over its shoulder a
lot lately!
Don't get me wrong...I'm actually glad to hear you're using SuSE
successfully. To be honest, I'm currently triple-booting my laptop
with XP Pro, XP x64 and SuSE 9.2. I was immensely impressed with how
easily SuSE loaded on my laptop, and haven't had any serious problems
with it. But, and this is a big but, I just don't think it's ready
for prime time yet. There remain too many issues with cross-platform
compatibility to work out and too many instances where a user just
*has* to go to a terminal window. I don't think the average end-user
wants to do that. Try, for example, to get a wireless NIC up and
running. Sometimes, it's easy. Most times, though, it requires at
least some amount of tinkering. And in some cases, it requires
getting down and dirty with the kernel. Compare that to Windows
where, for the most part, though not every time by any means, it just
works. The end-user doesn't care *why* or *how* -- they just want it
to work and work consistently.
Click to expand...

I believe Woody said that it wasn't ready for the Masses, YET.
Denigrate MS as much as you want (and that's a general "you", not
pointed at anyone specific) but I think they've gone a long way
towards building the stability people are after. No easy feat
considering the wide array of devices available.
Click to expand...

Only took the a decade with all MSs resources. Linux isn't too far away
for delivering a consumer-friendly OS, and without all the restrictions
of the MicroMonopoly.

--
Peace!
Kurt
Self-anointed Moderator
microscum.pubic.windowsexp.gonorrhea
http://microscum.com/mscommunity
"Trustworthy Computing" is only another example of an Oxymoron!
"Produkt-Aktivierung macht frei"
 
DJ said:
Yeah, I am. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think capitalism will always win out in
the end. And, if capitalism wins out, then consumerism has won out. And
consumerism is what drives development. Just a long chain of events where,
eventually, the companies that want to stay competitive produce what the
majority of people want. That's how MS got where it is today. And if they
want to stay that way, they'll continue to produce what's wanted - maybe not
by everybody, but by most people.




Don't get me wrong...I'm actually glad to hear you're using SuSE
successfully. To be honest, I'm currently triple-booting my laptop with XP
Pro, XP x64 and SuSE 9.2. I was immensely impressed with how easily SuSE
loaded on my laptop, and haven't had any serious problems with it. But, and
this is a big but, I just don't think it's ready for prime time yet. There
remain too many issues with cross-platform compatibility to work out and too
many instances where a user just *has* to go to a terminal window.
Click to expand...

So, what's the difference from Windows in these regards? There are often
hardware compatibility and cross-platform issues/problems in Windows.
And what's the essencial difference between having to use the command
line in Windows and opening a terminal window in Linux?

As far as prime time readiness of Linux goes probably the biggest
obstacle is in getting a stable GUI, but as Apple has shown with OSX it
can definitely be done.
I don't
think the average end-user wants to do that. Try, for example, to get a
wireless NIC up and running. Sometimes, it's easy. Most times, though, it
requires at least some amount of tinkering. And in some cases, it requires
getting down and dirty with the kernel.
Click to expand...

Since the kernel went modular this is less and less of an issue. And
again, what's the essencial difference between having to tinker with the
kernel and tinkering with Windows OS in some cases? And at least in
Linux you have the ability and right to recompile the kernel if you
want/need to. Not true of Windows. The only tinkering with the core OS
is reserved for hotfixes and service packs. Still, they have to be done
sometimes.
Compare that to Windows where, for
the most part, though not every time by any means, it just works. The
end-user doesn't care *why* or *how* -- they just want it to work and work
consistently.
Click to expand...

The times it doesn't stick out in my mind. But I'm grateful for that,
keeps me employed :)
Denigrate MS as much as you want (and that's a general "you", not pointed at
anyone specific) but I think they've gone a long way towards building the
stability people are after. No easy feat considering the wide array of
devices available.
Click to expand...

The same can be said for Linux developers, they've come a long way and
there's always more road to travel for all OS development. I'm not
denigrating MS, I'm just trying to see things as they are and call `em
as I see `em.

Steve
 
DJ said:
It will be interesting to see how this plays out in the courts, but in the
end, the consumer will win out.
Click to expand...

Hopefully. We aren't at present.
Either by changes to the status quo or
simple user migration. If EULAs become so detrimental to end-users that it
becomes intolerable, people will eventually stop using the product.
Click to expand...

Doubtful. Microsoft will probably always have a corner on the software
market. Money talks and MS certainly has more than enough of that. Most
end users don't even read the EULAs, even if they do they don't
understand what the heck they say, and who's gonna hire a lawyer at
$100/hr to interpret the EULA for a $200 product? MS products are
marketed and advertised in our faces. Advertising works and MS has the $
to market their products effectively.
In the meantime, until the judicial system catches up with technology,
Click to expand...

At the present rate I doubt this will never happen. Judicial system has
always lagged severly behind technology. Same for all government components.
companies are going to, as they have always done, protect their own
financial interests as much as possible and as much as they can get away
with.
Click to expand...

Of course.
Microsoft's own EULAs could be interpreted as extremely restrictive and
unreasonable (as some in these NG's have), but how many cases of MS going
after an end-user have you seen? One could argue that just because they
haven't doesn't mean they won't...but MS has to protect what they deem to be
their property to remain profitable.
Click to expand...

Microsoft doesn't HAVE TO take any consumer end users to court, they
have product activation type technologies to enforce their position,
often at the detriment to consumer end users. WPA is clearly and openly
designed to target consumer end users who are assumed to be committing
"casual piracy". Product validation is just another step in the same
direction. I expect the next phase to be an even more efficient at
utterly disabling any MS product installation that fails their purity
tests. I'm sure they are developing something like that. I mean, who
wouldn't if they could? The perfect lock, stock and barrel, hook, line
and sinker solution.
They are, after all, a corporate
entity that lives and dies on the bottom line. You cannot fault them for
turning a profit. Were they not to protect their property, they could stand
to lose that profitability. Without that, who develops the product?
Click to expand...

Of course.
"Open source" and "free" may be the buzz-words that surround Linux distros,
but they aren't really free if you dig deep enough. They just charge
differently than MS does.
Click to expand...

If you are referring to enterprise Linux solutions as opposed to
personal operating systems solutions then you're sliding off topic.
And most developers working on it aren't doing it
for free, either. Most of Torvald's so-called "Lieutenants" all work for
one big company or another and get paid for the development that they put
into Linux.
Click to expand...

I suggest you look into Fedora Core Project, Mandrake and Debian
distros. These are all dedicated to producing absolutely free operating
systems to individuals. Nevermind the Torvald "Lieutenants" working for
a living. Everyone's got a right to earn a buck.
Development that those companies either use in-house to enhance
their profits or sell to a consumer.
Click to expand...

As is their right under open source copyright provisions. There is
nothing to say a company can't make money off of Linux development and
more power to them if they can. Again, you're sliding off topic here.
This about CONSUMERS' rights vs. EULAs.
If MS were to somehow "go away", some other big *evil* corporation would
quickly fill the void.
Click to expand...

I seriously doubt MS is going to "go away". They will hopefully change
but not vanish. Their one-time competitor, Apple, didn't go away did they?

Steve
 
yup , replying to this on my laptop on which i just installed SuSE linux
pro , bought it retail $89 yesterday , 2 dvds 5 cds , 2 incredibly well
written manuals that total over 3 ins thick and over a thousand apps .
and while it is a little bit of a learning experience , it's just as warm
and fuzzy as xp . other than a manual config of my lan and the scroll on my
mouse isnt working yet , i totally love it ;-)
Click to expand...

That's the trouble with Linux. When people talk about it, it's
always, Apart from this thing or that thing, it's great. That's
why I don't use it yet. The little things that don't work.

And I write this as someone who is eager to switch to Linux.
 
Al said:
That's the trouble with Linux. When people talk about it, it's
always, Apart from this thing or that thing, it's great. That's
why I don't use it yet. The little things that don't work.
Click to expand...
As we can see by this busy newsgroup, Windoze appears to work very well. :-)
So what o/s are you presently using that "works"?
And I write this as someone who is eager to switch to Linux.
Click to expand...

Don't give up. Stick with it. You'll get it working and when you understand
it better, you'll be amazed to see how a secure and efficient operating
system really works. I too have made the switch. It took me some time, as
Linux just "wasn't quite there yet". Today it is! And it is an amazing
system that leaves Windoze in the dust. It's great having the stability and
security that comes with using Linux and evey day you'll discover more and
more of its power. You will not regret putting in the effort to unlearn a
kludgy system and learn how to get the most out of your computer.

I wish you luck escaping from the chains of a proprietory system.

Cheers,
LRules
 
That's the trouble with Linux. When people talk about it, it's
always, Apart from this thing or that thing, it's great. That's
why I don't use it yet. The little things that don't work.

And I write this as someone who is eager to switch to Linux.
Click to expand...

I'm using RedHat Fedora Core 3 on a nice P3 system as I break myself into
Linux and I've not found anything I can't do except run some Windows only
remote control software. If I had installed VNC instead of the windows
only client I would not have to use my XP workstations at all.

I'm even using Evolution email client with a MS Exchange connector and
don't notice any loss of Exchange/Outlook functionality.

Sure, there are Windows only applications that you can't run, but you can
run MS Office XP and even 2003 when using CrossOver for Linux - it loads
just like on a Windows box - so you can use Word, Excel, Power Point...
 
Don't give up. Stick with it. You'll get it working and when you understand
it better, you'll be amazed to see how a secure and efficient operating
system really works. I too have made the switch. It took me some time, as
Linux just "wasn't quite there yet". Today it is! And it is an amazing
system that leaves Windoze in the dust. It's great having the stability and
security that comes with using Linux and evey day you'll discover more and
more of its power. You will not regret putting in the effort to unlearn a
kludgy system and learn how to get the most out of your computer.
Click to expand...

I'm running FC3 myself and don't think there will ever be a replacement
for Windows, that's not what Linux is about (except to OS Zealots).
Windows is very stable, at least as stable as SUSE, Mandrake, and Fedora
Core 3, and it's as secure if you set it up properly.

It's always best to know more than one OS, more than one language, more
than one platform and one security method.
 
At the present rate I doubt this will never happen. Judicial system has
always lagged severly behind technology. Same for all government components.
Click to expand...


Eff.org and others are winning cases.
I seriously doubt MS is going to "go away". They will hopefully change
but not vanish. Their one-time competitor, Apple, didn't go away did they?
Click to expand...

According to my local news most computers at Purdue University are a
mac.

Apple, Linux and others are gaining ground agian. If sco lose which I
think they will.

The copyright is actual owned by Andrew Tanenbaum.
See http://www.wbglinks.net/pages/history/


Actual people who use lindows/linspire won't have to worry about Sco
threats, becuase sco has a contract with lindows/linspire.


Greg R
 
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