Epson are announcing the F-3200 for the Photokina

  • Thread starter Ralf R. Radermacher
  • Start date
R

Ralf R. Radermacher

In a press release on their German website, Epson are announcing, among
a number of other things, that the'll be presenting the notorious F-3200
MF film scanner at this year's Photokina in Cologne.

As a reminder, this model has been on their Japanese website for quite
some time and is meant to scan 35 mm to 4x5 inches and negs as long as 6
x 18 cm.

Stay tuned for more.

Ralf
 
G

Gordon Moat

Ralf R. Radermacher said:
In a press release on their German website, Epson are announcing, among
a number of other things, that the'll be presenting the notorious F-3200
MF film scanner at this year's Photokina in Cologne.

As a reminder, this model has been on their Japanese website for quite
some time and is meant to scan 35 mm to 4x5 inches and negs as long as 6
x 18 cm.

Stay tuned for more.

Ralf

Is that a true CCD film scanner, or a variation on a flat bed scanner?
Actually made by Epson, or some other company for them?

Ciao!

Gordon Moat
A G Studio
<http://www.allgstudio.com/gallery.html> Updated!
 
R

RSD99

The following was posted back in April ...

http://www.i-love-epson.co.jp/products/scanner/f3200/f32001.
htm

Apparently it is a 3200 dpi film scanner, that can take 35
mm through 4"x5" transparencies or negatives.

= = = = =
That web page is still "up" ... and maybe if you can read
Japanese, you can tell us "all of the answers." It is
apparently a for-real film scanner, only from the picture I
wonder if it's a stand-alone device or if it will be used
connected to a computer. If it will interface with a
Windows/Macintosh, it will compete with the Nikon 9000 and
corresponding Minolta and Microtek units ... although at
3200 dpi will be giving up a little to those units. Too bad
they couldn't stretch this to the currently competitive 4000
dpi. However, the fact that it will take 4" x 5" sheet film
makes it *very* interesting (at least to me).

I would not be surprised to find out that the current
four-month waiting list for the Nikon Coolscan 9000 was a
factor in Epson's decision to market this device. As for
whether or not they are actually the manufacturer, I guess
we'll have to wait till Photokina opens and the reports
start flowing in ... won't we.
 
D

David J. Littleboy

RSD99 said:
The following was posted back in April ...
http://www.i-love-epson.co.jp/products/scanner/f3200/f32001.htm

Apparently it is a 3200 dpi film scanner, that can take 35
mm through 4"x5" transparencies or negatives.

= = = = =
That web page is still "up" ... and maybe if you can read
Japanese, you can tell us "all of the answers." It is
apparently a for-real film scanner, only from the picture I
wonder if it's a stand-alone device or if it will be used
connected to a computer. If it will interface with a
Windows/Macintosh, it will compete with the Nikon 9000 and
corresponding Minolta and Microtek units ... although at
3200 dpi will be giving up a little to those units.

It works both standalone and connected.

The effective resolution of the 3200 flatbeds are more like 1600 dpi: less
than 1/2 the resolution of the Nikon 8000/9000.

I suspect it's dreaming to expect anything significantly more than that from
this thing. Maybe a bit better contrast and less flare for slide films.
Too bad
they couldn't stretch this to the currently competitive 4000
dpi. However, the fact that it will take 4" x 5" sheet film
makes it *very* interesting (at least to me).

IMHO, the ICE on the 4870 (and the better resolution) makes the F-3200 a
snore.
I would not be surprised to find out that the current
four-month waiting list for the Nikon Coolscan 9000 was a
factor in Epson's decision to market this device.

The penetration of the PC in the Japanese home market is about 1/2 what it
is in the US, so there are a lot of folks without a PC. (Everyone does email
on their cell phone, even if they have a PC.) So this thing is a standalone
scanner that connects directly to a printer.

David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan
 
A

Aserio

I suspect it's dreaming to expect anything significantly more than that from
this thing. Maybe a bit better contrast and less flare for slide films.

So this thing is just a modified flatbed? :-(. It would be great epson
made an affordable real film scanner. Let's say something like benq's
2750i (ice, auto-focussing..).

regards
 
R

Ralf R. Radermacher

David J. Littleboy said:
IMHO, the ICE on the 4870 (and the better resolution) makes the F-3200 a
snore.

Depends. I've been snoring when I tried the 4870 with ICE on. A few
hours later, it was back on its way to the shop.

I wouldn't use the 3200 for 35 mm and dust isn't much of a problem with
MF if one uses compressed air for cleaning. I've found that I'm much
faster at cleaning a few speckles manually in PS than the 4870 is with
ICE.

Comparing it to the LS-9000 doesn't do justice to one or the other. The
Epson is sold at around 500 USD so one should be realistic. If it
delivers an honest 2000 dpi or even 1600 without the typical flatbed
flare for this price that'd be fine with me. Mind you, any used LS-4500
or early Dimage Multi (the first model) has an even lower resolution,
goes for twice or even three times as much on ebay, and I still would
have to scan my Noblex negs in two parts.

Ralf
 
B

Bart van der Wolf

SNIP
The effective resolution of the 3200 flatbeds are more like
1600 dpi: less than 1/2 the resolution of the Nikon 8000/9000.

I've seen statements like this before, I've hardly ever seen any
proof.
Untill supported by evidence, I'll call them urban myths.

What does the resolution depend on?
1. It depends on captured resolution on film.
2. It depends on the scanner optics.
3. It depends on the CCD.

1. If the film doesn't have resolvable detail (lens+film and camera
shake). Maximum detail will be available only in the plane of focus,
and Depth-of-Field areas will not provide as high a resolution.
Because DoF depends on final output enlargement and viewing distance,
the best generalization one can make is by assuming e.g. general
viewing
conditions like normal reading distance (approx. 25cm or 10 inch) with
adequate object luminance.
2. Scanners use different technologies. Fixed focus, and scanning
through a glass plate, usually reduces image contrast which will also
cause fine detail (resolution) to suffer. Obviously, poor
lenses/prisms/mirrors will result in poor resolution. Also internal
reflection will reduce image contrast due to flare. Flare is often
poorly controlled in flatbed scanners.
3. Scanners use different sensor technologies. Some use so-called
staggered line sensor array placement, others have poor fill factors.
That will influence the MTF shape and aliasing tendency, while
limiting
resolution is mainly determined by the sampling density.

It is relatively simple to make an estimate about effective resolution
of the scanner itself, thus eliminating the influence of the film
resolution (which ultimately further reduces final resolution), by
scanning a sharp slanted edge and quantify the number of pixels it
needs to transition the edge (e.g. 10-90% brightness is a commonly
used criterion). Scan the very sharp edge at a small (approx. 5
degree) slant at the native scan resolution.

I tried several methods to produce such an edge target, folded
alumin(i)um foil is (too) vulnerable to keep flat in focus, so I
settled on a very sharp cutting blade, mounted in a slide mount. I
tried different blades, but found in a graphic arts shop very useful
"Logan" blades, model 270, in a 10-pack
(http://www.logangraphic.com/products/blades/). Other blades as
offered in DIY shops may be equally useable, as long as they fit in a
slide mount which means they need to be thin and of the right size.

I happen to have, amongst others, an Epson 2450 (2400ppi) scanner,
which some claim to only have a *maximum* 1200ppi resolution (due to
the staggered sensor array). Scanning an edge as described above as a
transparency, produces the following profile:
<http://www.xs4all.nl/~bvdwolf/temp/E2450_Edge.png> , so approx.
3.2-3.5 pixels wide, which is approaching 30 cy/mm or 62% of sensor
Nyquist *at that contrast* (which is impossible if it were a 1200ppi
sensor with a Nyquist frequency of 23.6, before the scanner lens
reduces that further).

Of course a more detailed analysis of the same edge is possible with a
program like Imatest (www.imatest.com).

Bart
 
R

RSD99

"Bart van der Wolf" posted:
"...
It is relatively simple to make an estimate about effective
resolution
of the scanner itself, thus eliminating the influence of the
film
resolution (which ultimately further reduces final
resolution), by
scanning a sharp slanted edge and quantify the number of
pixels it
needs to transition the edge (e.g. 10-90% brightness is a
commonly
used criterion).
...."

I'd like to make this test on my Epson 4870 that was just
returned from Warranty Repair. Do you know of any web
site(s) that have a step-by-step "procedure" that could be
used by one joe-average-scanner-guy ... e.g., someone who
knows roughly what "MTF" means, but would not necessarily be
able to figure out how to measure or calculate it?

If a clean single-edged razor blade will be adequate ...
I've got that, and even made scans of it. I just cannot
figure out how to go from the scan ... to the resolution
number(s).
 
B

Bart van der Wolf

SNIP
I'd like to make this test on my Epson 4870 that was
just returned from Warranty Repair. Do you know of
any web site(s) that have a step-by-step "procedure"
that could be used by one joe-average-scanner-guy ...
e.g., someone who knows roughly what "MTF" means,
but would not necessarily be able to figure out how to
measure or calculate it?

I can talk you through the basics for this test, and the MTF
(Modulation Transfer Function) is basically a curve that shows the
loss of contrast as details approach the resolution limits. We'll get
to that as we go, and as questions surface.
If a clean single-edged razor blade will be adequate ...

Yes, for starters it will. You may want to tape the holes with
something opaque, in order to reduce flare from stray light. I so far
prefer the blade I described, but we'll get to that as we go, ...
I've got that, and even made scans of it. I just cannot
figure out how to go from the scan ... to the resolution
number(s).

Okay, just a few questions. Did you place it directly on the glass, or
did you first frame it in a mount? With my flatbed scanner, 'optimal'
focus (of the fixed focus lens) is some 1.5mm above the glass and that
happens to be half the thickness of my slide frames. Film/blade is
thus in the optimal focus plane for me.

Make sure, if at all possible, to reduce exposure time to avoid
clipping of the unobstructed parts. If necessary, lock exposure and
then overlay the blank area with some overexposed translucent slide
film leader, or other structure-less material. Just figure out a way
to avoid the clipping, and don't sharpen the scan. A 48-bit Raw linear
gamma file is best, but if the scan software applies a gamma
correction, note that for later use (e.g. Adobe RGB 1998 gamma = 2.2).
A crop size of 200x600 pixels is fine. For focusing scanners, try a
few scans at different focus so optimal focus will be amongst the
trials.

Also important is the slight slant at which the edge should to be
positioned. There are two main orientations, one where the edge is
almost parallel to the long dimension of the glass platen (this will
test the sensor resolution), and one where the edge is close to
parallel to the short dimension (which will test the stepper motor
related resolution. The slant of approx. 5 degrees coincides with a 9
to 10% offset from perpendicular. It is easy to achieve when framing
the blade in a slide mount. Just draw two perpendicular lines and
align the slide frame with that. Now by eye align the blade edge with
a line you drew from the crossing lines to a position that deviates
10% of the distance along one line, and close the frame to lock the
blade in position. The exact angle is not crucial, but 5 to 6 degrees
(10% is almost 5.7 degrees) is convenient later on.

The reason for the slant is to (sort of) sample at sub-pixel
intervals, which increases accuracy and avoids accidental
(miss)alignment with the sensor array.

To be continued, after the DIY home-craft part is accomplished ...

Bart
 
F

Fernando

To be continued, after the DIY home-craft part is accomplished ...

I finished a first Imatest run on my 5400.
Did MF on Vuescan 8.0.17, no sharpening, RAW file, exposure locked at
0.9, output colorspace = DeviceRGB, Color Balance = None.

Stepper motor (short side slanted edge test):
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Imatest 1.0.3 gives me a figure of 1.79 pixels for 10%-90%
transiction; the corrected (?) figure is 1.19 pixels for 10%-90%
transiction.
Other figures: MTF50 = 65.1 cy/mm uncorrected, and 77.9 corrected.
MTF30 = 95.6 cy/mm.
MTF at Nyquist = 0.252
Nyquist = 106.3 cy/mm
Undersharpening = 16.3%
Actual edge angle = 6.9 degrees

Seems like too high values?
But, no clipping occurred... I checked the histograms!

Sensor (long side slanted edge test):
---------------------------------------------------------
pixels for 10%-90%, uncorrected = 2.13
pixels for 10%-90%, corrected = 1.24
MTF50 uncorrected = 59.3
MTF50 corrected = 75
MTF30 = 85.2
MTF at Nyquist = 0.195
Nyquist = 106.3
Undersharpening = 20.2
Actual edge angle = 5.14 degrees


Any suggestion before I proceed with testing my other scanners?

Bye, thanks!

Fernando
 
B

Bart van der Wolf

Fernando said:
I finished a first Imatest run on my 5400.
Did MF on Vuescan 8.0.17, no sharpening, RAW file, exposure locked at
0.9, output colorspace = DeviceRGB, Color Balance = None.

For Raw, the output colorspace and Color balance don't matter if you
scan 48-bit files.
Stepper motor (short side slanted edge test):

Forget the 'corrected' figures for now (it is more useful for
comparing sharpened DSLR JPEGs).
Other figures: MTF50 = 65.1 cy/mm uncorrected, and 77.9 corrected.
MTF30 = 95.6 cy/mm.
MTF at Nyquist = 0.252
Nyquist = 106.3 cy/mm
Undersharpening = 16.3%
Actual edge angle = 6.9 degrees

Seems like too high values?

No, they're similar to mine (scanned with Minolta Scan SW):
10-90% edge rise of 1.87 pixel
MTF50 = 63.1 cy/mm
MTF at Nyquist = 0.247
Nyquist = 106.3 cy/mm

The DSE-5400 scanner just has extremely high resolution :)
The Nyquist frequency exceeds what most films offers, so film will
dominate the imaging chain limits. At lower ppi the scanner becomes
more of a limitation.
But, no clipping occurred... I checked the histograms!

That's good. Imatest will complain if there is clipping, because that
would reduce accuracy.

SNIP
Any suggestion before I proceed with testing my other scanners?

Looks okay to me. If you want to compare with other capture devices,
the LW/PH output can also be used, but for scanner crops you'll need
to manually input the 24x36mm dimensions in pixels (multiply with
5400ppi / 25.4mm = 212.6) so 5102x7654 pixels image size for the
DSE-5400. That will compensate for output magnification differences
(more pixels equals lower magnification for equal sized output).

Bart
 
C

Charles Hohenstein

In a press release on their German website, Epson are announcing, among
a number of other things, that the'll be presenting the notorious F-3200
MF film scanner at this year's Photokina in Cologne.

What makes it "notorious"?

Charles Hohenstein
 
F

Fernando

For Raw, the output colorspace and Color balance don't matter if you
scan 48-bit files.
Thanks!

Forget the 'corrected' figures for now (it is more useful for
comparing sharpened DSLR JPEGs).

Understood. Could those "corrected" figures hint what we can
accomplish by properly sharpening the actual scans?
No, they're similar to mine (scanned with Minolta Scan SW):
10-90% edge rise of 1.87 pixel
MTF50 = 63.1 cy/mm
MTF at Nyquist = 0.247
Nyquist = 106.3 cy/mm

Are those from short side test, long side test or similar for both?
I've found long side test to give lower values...
The DSE-5400 scanner just has extremely high resolution :)

Then we just have to pray (and help!) Ed Hamrick to eliminate
streakings and extract the whole dynamic range from those scanners!
Hi, Ed! ;-D
I really can't withstand M.S.U. The simple fact that I have to turn on
G.D. in order to have ICE is unbearable for me. :-(

I'm now building another slanted test target, for the blade I used in
the previous one was not ideal (the edge was not good enough under
high magnifications).
I'm now using a Gillette Platinum razor blade, seems to have a better
edge and its dimensions allowed me to mount it in a better way.
Will re-run the tests on my DSE-5400, SS120 and later 2450.

Thanks for your useful inputs! :)

Fernando
 
B

Bart van der Wolf

Fernando said:
On Sun, 19 Sep 2004 02:10:30 +0200, "Bart van der Wolf"


Understood. Could those "corrected" figures hint what we
can accomplish by properly sharpening the actual scans?

If you apply a straight forward USM or High-pass sharpening on a
slanted edge image, you'll get a different result from the 'corrected'
edge. The 'correction' gives a hint in the direction of the effect of
sharpening, but it is really intended to *normalize* the different
sharpening already applied to out-of-the-camera JPEGs.
Are those from short side test, long side test or similar for both?
I've found long side test to give lower values...

Okay, time for some ISO standards terminology...
fast scan direction

< ReflScanRes, FilmScanRes > scan direction corresponding to the
direction of the alignment of the addressable photoelements in a
linear array image sensor.

slow scan direction

< ReflScanRes, FilmScanRes > direction in which the scanner moves the
photoelements (perpendicular to the lines of active photoelements in a
linear array image sensor).


The slanted edge transition should be almost perpendicular to the
direction we want to measure. I provided the fast scan (sensor)
resolution.
If there is a large difference between the sensor and the stepper
motor resolution, it indicates a stepper motor pitch deviation from
the sensor pitch. If the steps are smaller than the sensor pitch, the
resolution will be higher. It will also mean that there is a slight
deformation of the original's aspect ratio.

This will also allow to quantify the resolution improvement possible
with scanners that allow twice the number of steps in the slow scan
direction compared to the fixed sensor pitch. The benefit is currently
not used by VueScan AFAIK. An example of a scanner that allows that
increased slow scan accuracy is the Minolta Multi Pro. The Epson
flatbeds seem to also offer such a benefit, but it requires the scan
software that comes with the scanner to utilize it. VueScan should be
able to exploit it, but let's convince Ed Hamrick by unambiguous
resolution measurements, so he can prioritize.
Then we just have to pray (and help!) Ed Hamrick to eliminate
streakings and extract the whole dynamic range from those scanners!
Hi, Ed! ;-D
I really can't withstand M.S.U. The simple fact that I have to turn on
G.D. in order to have ICE is unbearable for me. :-(

I agree, as many other DSE-5400 users have also expressed.
D-max error and the possibly related calibration induced streaking,
make VueScan largely unsuited to use with that scanner. It's a pity
because focus accuracy, clipping feedback, and other functions are
much better than with the Minolta software.

Bart
 
D

David J. Littleboy

Bart van der Wolf said:
I've seen statements like this before, I've hardly ever seen any
proof.
Untill supported by evidence, I'll call them urban myths.

You can have my 2450 for the shipping. It's worthless cr@p. It get's about
1/2 the detail that Kodak ProPhotoCD 1800 dpi scan get: it's not even close.

If you expect more than half the advertised detail from an Epson, you are
very likely to be disappointed.

David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan
 
F

Fernando

The slanted edge transition should be almost perpendicular to the
direction we want to measure. I provided the fast scan (sensor)
resolution.
If there is a large difference between the sensor and the stepper
motor resolution, it indicates a stepper motor pitch deviation from
the sensor pitch. If the steps are smaller than the sensor pitch, the
resolution will be higher. It will also mean that there is a slight
deformation of the original's aspect ratio.

Interesting... I keep getting different figures for fast scan and slow
scan directions.

I have built a better target now.
My new measurements:

Minolta DSE-5400
(5400dpi; Nyquist frequency = 106.3 cy/mm)
==========
Fast scan test:
10-90% edge rise = 1.83 pixel
MTF50 = 63 cy/mm
MTF at Nyquist = 0.24

Slow scan test:
10-90% edge rise = 1.79 pixel
MTF50 = 64.2 cy/mm
MTF at Nyquist = 0.244


SS120 (with misaligned CCD, unfortunately)
(4000dpi; Nyquist frequency = 78.7 cy/mm)
==============
Fast scan test:
10-90% edge rise = 2.27 pixel
MTF50 = 39.8 cy/mm
MTF at Nyquist = 0.125

Slow scan test:
10-90% edge rise = 1.83 pixel
MTF50 = 63 cy/mm
MTF at Nyquist = 0.254

This will also allow to quantify the resolution improvement possible
with scanners that allow twice the number of steps in the slow scan
direction compared to the fixed sensor pitch. The benefit is currently
not used by VueScan AFAIK. An example of a scanner that allows that
increased slow scan accuracy is the Minolta Multi Pro. The Epson
flatbeds seem to also offer such a benefit, but it requires the scan
software that comes with the scanner to utilize it. VueScan should be
able to exploit it, but let's convince Ed Hamrick by unambiguous
resolution measurements, so he can prioritize.

I'll perform those tests on my 2450 (installed in another house) in a
few days. Let's see if we'll get results that are good enough to
convince Ed. :)

Thanks for your help!

Fernando
 
D

David J. Littleboy

jjs said:
You can have my 2450 for the shipping. It's worthless cr@p. [...]

Funny! Talk about a White Elephant. (David lives in Japan. Shipping would
be painful!)

That's not much of a secret: it's in every email I've written in the last 14
years.

David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan
 

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