Epson 2200 - right choice with non-traditional paper?

C

Cary C

I'm considering buying a refurbished Epson 2200 instead of the R2400
R1800, smaller R800 or other brand. My needs range from printin
black & white photographs on art pape
to be hand-colored (with oils) to printing decks o
playing cards for a game I've designed - the card stock I'm using i
[i:ca86c3775f]clay-coated [/i:ca86c3775f]to give the feel of rea
cards.

The Epson pre-sales folks were steering me towards the 2400, but
have an artist friend who loves the 2200, and reviews highly prais
this model.

I cannot find enough info about paper compatibility with th
Ultrachrome inks - except the thread about the R1800. Anyone hav
advice? :rolleyes
 
J

Jon O'Brien

My needs range from printing black & white photographs on art paper
to be hand-colored (with oils)...

There are a number of coated art papers that can be used with the 2200, such as those produced by Hahnemuhle. However, I wouldn't have thought they'd be suitable for oils, for which sized canvas or board is a more usual medium. Hahnemuhle does make photo art boards suitable for inkjet printing but they may be a bit thick for the 2200 and the surface coating that makes them, and the papers, work with pigment-based inks may not be suitable for oils. You can also get treated canvas that you can print on but the possible problem with the coating remains.

I'd suggest that you buy a sample pack of the Hahnemuhle papers and try them out before buying the printer, which I agree is excellent.
...to printing decks of playing cards for a game I've designed - the
card stock I'm using is clay-coated...

Unless the card is designed for use with pigment-based inkjet ink you're unlikely to get reasonable quality or durability. I suspect that it would also be a very expensive way of printing the cards. It would probably be cheaper and easier to find a local printer that can do the job.

Jon.
 
C

Cary C

Thanks Jon. I may be asking too much of one printer.
I took a workshop from some trusted photographers
re: handcoloring on inkjet paper, and pigment-base
inks were recommended for their archival properties..

I wonder if Arthur Entlich is available to weigh in on this
i.e., using oils and clay-coated stock and UltraChrome ink?

I would really prefer making the cards myself since I have
invested so much time already on layout, etc. I am ready fo
the fun part of seeing the pages come out of the printe
looking swell! But they looked like a muddy river on th
C88 with DuraBrite ink - best results on "text" an
"plai
paper" settings, and reducing the cyan and overall saturation
in the Advanced Print options, but still not acceptable
 
J

Jon O'Brien

...pigment-based inks were recommended for their archival properties.

I'd recommend considering the use of Hahnemuhle Photo Rag paper or Moab Entrada Fine Art 300 Natural Paper with the 2200 and coating them with Lascaux fixative (http://tinyurl.com/emm4c) and Clearshield (http://www.clearstarcorp.com) for the best in archival properties. Artist Stephen Livick spent several years researching inkjet longevity and Hahnemuhle paper ended up with a rating of 190 years and the Moab with a rating of 242 years for indoor display under normal lighting with no direct sunlight. Pretty good stuff.

Unfortunately, Livick has taken all the results down from his site after '...serious litigious threats, not to mention some vicious nasty verbal attacks on my life and credibility', which is a real drag. Full story at: http://tinyurl.com/ehzqv for those that are interested. However, the results are archived at: http://tinyurl.com/gvqo9 and make interesting reading.

There are some useful links at: http://tinyurl.com/hzyeo as well if you want to know more about print permanence.
I would really prefer making the cards myself since I have
invested so much time already on layout, etc. I am ready for
the fun part of seeing the pages come out of the printer
looking swell!

Please don't let me spoil the fun! However, after you've produced a few sets you may decide that it would be more economical, in terms of both both time and money, to contract the work out. Neither Epson inks nor a good quality, compatible card are cheap!

Jon.
 
C

Cary C

[/quote
Artist Stephen Livick spent several years researching inkjet longevit
and Hahnemuhle paper ended up with a rating of 190 years and the Moa
with a rating of 242 years for indoor display under normal lightin
with no direct sunlight. Pretty good stuff
Jon.[/quote

Thanks again for tips on paper - wow! that's longevity
I read the background on Livick's tests, and I can only add what
shame it is when people/corporate or otherwise/ go beyond polit
disagreement to punish someone for sharing his research in a spiri
of generosity
 
A

Arthur Entlich

I would suggest you look at a few issues to help you determine your needs.

For the best B&W reproduction, the 2400 is the preferable printer for a
few reasons. The 2200 uses two densities of black ink, and offer two
type of the dark black, matte and photographic. The reason is the matte
contains more pigment and is much denser, but it is also not glossy, and
tends to show up as matte on glossy paper. The photo black is less
dense, but has a relatively normal gloss when printed on glossy paper
stocks.

The 2400 has three densities of black ink, so using just those three
a very smooth tonal gradient black and white print can be produced
without introducing the color inks to "fill in" the gray scale, which
can lead to undesirable tints.

Some people find using the new Ultrachrome inks for the 2400 work well
enough with matte paper that they don't bother replacing the dark black
ink with the matte ink. That saves you some ink, because each time you
exchange the black cartridges, the heads have to be purged, and all
heads are purged together (including the color ones).

The 2200 is a good printer with very few reports of clogging or other
mechanical problems. The inks are slow drying, however. It produces
beautiful color and reasonable B&W images. The 2400 output is however,
considered an improvement. Ink costs on both is higher than others.

The 1800 and 800 are mainly designed for color work with glossy paper.
They added several extra colors to improve the color gamut to very
nearly that of dye inks, by using a red and a blue ink source. As I
mentioned these inks are really designed for glossy paper stock in that
the inks themselves have a glossier ink base when dry, and the printer
is fitted with a gloss optimizer, which is another cartridge filled with
a clear coating that can be placed over the print during printing.

The main consideration for you may be how the inks respond to use of oil
paints, solvents and oil pencils for hand coloring. I don't know if
they will hold up to that type of treatment or if you will find papers
that can handle that and also work well with the Ultrachrome inks.

However, a better question might be if you might want to reconsider how
you do your art. For instance, rather than hand coloring the black and
white prints after they are printed, how about working in an imaging
editing software like photoshop, and hand coloring the digital file with
transparent and glazing techniques, and then printing the result:? You
can probably create a very similar look, and it will be reproducible
over and over again as it will be part of the file itself. Also, you
will then have no problem with the oils or inks or pencils and other
solvents and materials possibly lifting or ruining either the paper
surface or the B&W print underneath your hand coloring.

I realize that it may not be the same skill set, or even the same amount
of fun, and yes, you won't have each print an original either, so that
may be an issue for you.

Under any circumstance, I do suggest you try to find someone who can
print some sample prints on a variety of papers and try the hand
coloring to find out if the thing holds together or not. Also, keep in
mind some often chemicals (and oils) used in the colorants you will be
adding may, over time yellow or otherwise alter the inkjet coatings used
on inkjet papers.

Art

Cary said:
I'm considering buying a refurbished Epson 2200 instead of the R2400,
R1800, smaller R800 or other brand. My needs range from printing
black & white photographs on art paper
to be hand-colored (with oils) to printing decks of
playing cards for a game I've designed - the card stock I'm using is
[i:ca86c3775f]clay-coated [/i:ca86c3775f]to give the feel of real
cards.

The Epson pre-sales folks were steering me towards the 2400, but I
have an artist friend who loves the 2200, and reviews highly praise
this model.

I cannot find enough info about paper compatibility with the
Ultrachrome inks - except the thread about the R1800. Anyone have
advice? :rolleyes:
 
A

Arthur Entlich

Hi Cary,

I just did weigh in ;-) (gee, I need to get on a diet!), but I'm afraid
I have no personal experience with using hand coloring oils on a pigment
printed Ultrachrome ink image, so it may be up to you to do some
"groundwork" as it were, to try to test the materials.

As I did state, one problem may be how the oils, carriers and solvents
respond over time to the paper components, and that may be difficult to
just short term.

Art
 
C

Cary C

Art

Thank you! Your post expands upon everything I've read in such
clear, thoughtful manner. I will try printing on my artist friends
printers and experimenting with the oils. I know they have
selection of the fine art paper that Joe recommended in his helpfu
post

A book by Theresa Airey, "Digital Photo Art," has bee
recommended as the bible for hand-coloring on inkjet prints.

Going with digital prints v. those made in a traditional darkroom i
already a stretch that I am making grudgingly, a necessity due t
shrinking darkroom access and Agfa paper manufacturer closing.
don't think I'm ready to become an all-digital artist. In fact,
describe my hand-colored photographs in one book which has publishe
them as a "high-touch" art form in a "high-tech
world. I love everything about the process, even the stink of th
fixer in a darkroom and the PM solution used to prepare traditiona
prints! And I don't think my wrist could hold up if I spent any mor
time at the computer.

Thanks again! You are terrific
Arthur Entlichwrote
..
Under any circumstance, I do suggest you try to find someone who ca
print some sample prints on a variety of papers and try the hand
coloring to find out if the thing holds together or not. Also, kee in
mind some often chemicals (and oils) used in the colorants you wil be
adding may, over time yellow or otherwise alter the inkjet coating used
on inkjet papers

Ar

Cary C wrote

I'm considering buying a refurbished Epson 2200 ... black
white photographs on art paper to be hand-colored (with oils) ..
The Epson pre-sales folks were steering me towards the 2400, but
have an artist friend who loves the 2200, and reviews highly prais
this model

I cannot find enough info about paper compatibility with th
Ultrachrome inks [/quote:e9e89c9ef1
 
C

CWatters

Arthur Entlich said:
The 2200 is a good printer with very few reports of clogging or other
mechanical problems. The inks are slow drying, however. It produces
beautiful color and reasonable B&W images. The 2400 output is however,
considered an improvement. Ink costs on both is higher than others.

I've got an Epson 2200 and an HP6840. Very different printers but
surprisingly similar output. Both are very good to my untrained eye. The
colours on the HP are slightly more vivid (probably because the ink is dye
based) but I prefer the output from the 2200. The 2200 can't be called fast
though.
 
C

Cary C

Arthur Entlichwrote
... so it may be up to you to do some
"groundwork" as it were, to try to test the materials.

For better or worse, I now have the Epson Photo Stylus 2200. C
Watters is correct - it is no speed demon! However, I have an H
Deskjet 5740 for general printing, and it does a great job wit
glossy snapshots as well, so I'm saving the expensive Epson 2200 fo
artwork

I've already done some experimenting with one of th
"non-traditional" papers I need to use. I bough
clay-coated card stock from PlainCards.com to print decks of playin
cards for a rummy-style game I've invented. I'm printing some of m
photographs on the cards. Up front, let me say I've learned tha
dye-based inks work better over clay-coated stock!
Even my old Epson C-84 did a fine job, but when Epso
improved the inks for the C-88, trying to print on clay-coated stoc
was a nightmare of garish color puddling on the surface

However, for longevity of my art projects, I went with Epson's 220
and UltraChrome pigment-based inks

Can I print on the clay-coated stock? Yes.

With much asistance from Epson's tech support and reading variou
posts on line, I did the following
-- installed the newest printer driver from Epson's web sit
(uninstalling the driver which came on the CD);
-- took out the photo black cartridge and replaced it with the matt
black ink (this made a world of difference!)
-- set up to print on "plain paper," "photo quality
760 dpi," UNchecked "high speed," checke
"minimize margins" (suggested by tech support
incomprehensible to me), and in color management I set the colo
saturation to PLUS 8 (to reduce the black ink output) and th
individual colors to MINUS 8 each. This reduces the overall in
output without reducing image quality

I still do not completely understand why the matte black ink produce
color images that "pop" so much better on non-glossy paper
but the results are evidence enough. EDIT: Re-reading Art's pos
above, it's because matte black has more pigment. Ok, I get it

Printing on business card stock - Avery white card stock which has
faintly textured matte surface - the results were amazing using th
matte black ink. Of course, I don't intend to waste the 2200's in
printing business cards, but as a test, using the photo black whic
came with the printer, the images and text on the cards displaye
muddy colors and were not at all crisp. Using the matte black ink
the text is crisp, the colors well-defined

Thanks again, all who responded to my question. I will keep the foru
in mind as I experiment on various papers which I have ordered. Usin
Marshall oils to handcolor prints may only be possible on coate
canvas, or on paper which has a protective layer of gesso...? Havin
seen the results of a war between pigmented ink and coated inkje
paper, I am not so optimistic that I will find a replacement fo
traditional photo paper and darkroom processing. I have a question i
to the folks at Ilford
 
J

Jon O'Brien

I now have the Epson Photo Stylus 2200.

Thanks for the update. Very interesting. I'm pleased, if somewhat surprised, that you're getting such good results on the clay-coated card.

Jon.
 
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