Elementary Question about HD Back-Ups

[mutefan]

I have always been confused about the use of the term "back up." Boot
disks provided with new computers seemed to make system back-ups
redundant, even though nearly everyone I know has at least two copies
of boot disks in addition to the factory manufacturer's. I could never
understand this.

As far as mirror-image personalized back ups are concerned, I was told
yesterday by two IBM customer service/tech support/(maybe both)
representatives that I have to download a huge file called Rescue and
Recovery onto my teentsie-weentsie 20G HD in order to make mirror
images.

I asked if the Windows-based HD back up "service," on the hardware
maintenance file (with Error Checking and Defrag) wouldn't provide a
mirror image. They both said No.

But I made one anyway, onto an external HD. At the end of this back
up, a message came up saying that unless I created a floppy disk, the
process was useless/worthless.

So 1) DO you need additional software to make mirror image back-ups?
2) Do you also need to create the back up on a floppy disk (or CD)?

Thank you.

 

[OhNo]

I have always been confused about the use of the term "back up." Boot
disks provided with new computers seemed to make system back-ups
redundant, even though nearly everyone I know has at least two copies
of boot disks in addition to the factory manufacturer's. I could never
understand this.

As far as mirror-image personalized back ups are concerned, I was told
yesterday by two IBM customer service/tech support/(maybe both)
representatives that I have to download a huge file called Rescue and
Recovery onto my teentsie-weentsie 20G HD in order to make mirror
images.

I asked if the Windows-based HD back up "service," on the hardware
maintenance file (with Error Checking and Defrag) wouldn't provide a
mirror image. They both said No.

But I made one anyway, onto an external HD. At the end of this back
up, a message came up saying that unless I created a floppy disk, the
process was useless/worthless.

So 1) DO you need additional software to make mirror image back-ups?
2) Do you also need to create the back up on a floppy disk (or CD)?

Thank you.

even though you have the backup you still need to boot into a recovery
application that knows how and where to locate the data and how to reinstate
it. So you will need to load some software onto bootable media be it floppy
or cd.

Acronis TrueImage Home is a great piece of software for cloning and backing
up data. Have a read through their web page....

http://www.acronis.com/

dj

 

[Bioboffin]

I have always been confused about the use of the term "back up." Boot
disks provided with new computers seemed to make system back-ups
redundant, even though nearly everyone I know has at least two copies
of boot disks in addition to the factory manufacturer's. I could
never understand this.

As far as mirror-image personalized back ups are concerned, I was told
yesterday by two IBM customer service/tech support/(maybe both)
representatives that I have to download a huge file called Rescue and
Recovery onto my teentsie-weentsie 20G HD in order to make mirror
images.

I asked if the Windows-based HD back up "service," on the hardware
maintenance file (with Error Checking and Defrag) wouldn't provide a
mirror image. They both said No.

But I made one anyway, onto an external HD. At the end of this back
up, a message came up saying that unless I created a floppy disk, the
process was useless/worthless.

So 1) DO you need additional software to make mirror image back-ups?
2) Do you also need to create the back up on a floppy disk (or CD)?

Thank you.

System backups are one thing. The more important issue that you must address
is the back up of your personal data. Things like email addresses, and
important letters to the bank/your lover etc., etc.

I strongly suggest that you at least do the following:

1. run file and systems transfer wizard on your current machine (start¦all
programs¦accessories¦system tools¦files and settings transfer wizard) and
tell it that this is your old machine and you want to save your settings
only. Save them to your "my documents" folder.

2. copy the whole of your "my documents" folder to a dvd or a second hard
drive.

You will be able to restore your internet favourites, your outlook/outlook
express email data and things like your background and other stuff using
this strategy.

If you find that this is too time consuming, buy a program such as Acronis
True image, and use that for your backups.

Take care,

John.

 

[Rod Speed]

(e-mail address removed) wrote

I have always been confused about the use of the term "back up."

Yes, you clearly are.

Boot disks provided with new computers
seemed to make system back-ups redundant,

Nope, those dont save the stuff you have changed
since you got the laptop, most obviously emails etc
and whatever documents you have created etc.

even though nearly everyone I know has at least
two copies of boot disks in addition to the factory
manufacturer's. I could never understand this.

Quite a few laptops dont come with everything
you need if say the hard drive dies.

As far as mirror-image personalized back ups are concerned,

Thats just one way to do a personalised backup.

I was told yesterday by two IBM customer service/tech support/

< (maybe both) representatives that I have to download a huge file

called Rescue and Recovery onto my teentsie-weentsie 20G HD
in order to make mirror images.

You likely asked the wrong question.

I asked if the Windows-based HD back up "service," on
the hardware maintenance file (with Error Checking and
Defrag) wouldn't provide a mirror image. They both said No.

They are correct, its not a MIRROR IMAGE, its just a backup.

But I made one anyway, onto an external HD. At the end
of this back up, a message came up saying that unless I
created a floppy disk, the process was useless/worthless.

It means that if the hard drive dies, you need something
to get what is on the external HD onto the new HD.

So 1) DO you need additional software to make mirror image back-ups?

Yes. But you dont necessarily need to do a 'mirror image backup'

2) Do you also need to create the back up on a floppy disk (or CD)?

If you only have the one PC or laptop, and the hard
drive dies, you need some way to get what is on the
external HD onto the replacement HD.

 

[CWatters]

But I made one anyway, onto an external HD.

If you have an external HD.... consider setting up a program like Norton
Ghost (or similar) to make regular image backups of C: onto this external
HD. I do this and it has saved me loosing a lot of data twice in the past 5
years.

 

[mutefan]

It means that if the hard drive dies, you need something
to get what is on the external HD onto the new HD.
[SNIP]

If you only have the one PC or laptop, and the hard
drive dies, you need some way to get what is on the
external HD onto the replacement HD.

This seems like an overly obvious question, but wouldn't the external
HD, connected to the ThinkPad with a USB 2.0, be as good as a CD or
floppy to accomplish this?

 

[Guest]

It means that if the hard drive dies, you need something
to get what is on the external HD onto the new HD.

[SNIP]


If you only have the one PC or laptop, and the hard
drive dies, you need some way to get what is on the
external HD onto the replacement HD.

This seems like an overly obvious question, but wouldn't the external
HD, connected to the ThinkPad with a USB 2.0, be as good as a CD or
floppy to accomplish this?

When the hard drive on a computer dies and is replaced by a new one -
all that you get when you restart the machine is "Operating System Not
found". The computer needs an operating system to run - if there isn't
one on the hard disk (which there won't be for a brand new drive) then
you have to give it some other media to boot from, eg a floppy or a cd.

Now if you image copy the original hard drive to another (whilst the
original is still working) - and the original hard drive fails - no
problem. Stick the other hard drive in its place and switch on. The
other hard drive will boot and away you go.

Some image tools allow you to image a drive to /files/ on either DVDs,
CDs, hard disks, or another computer on the network. Fine, you stick a
new, empty, replacement hard disk in and then boot off either a special
CD, DVD or floppy set up or provided by the image tool. It has an
operating system on it and will restore the image files back on to the
virgin hard disk.

Some image tools allow you to boot via the network card into an
operating system stored on a network machine. This operating system then
runs and can either do a network image copy of the drive(s) or an image
restore. Very simple, quick and easy for those machines which don't have
a floppy drive or CD to boot from.

Finally, some computers allow the machine to boot from a USB flash
drive. This can hold an operating system and even the hard disk image
file, although that is typically only for machines dedicated to specific
applications, eg a mail server.

Even more finally, machines can be set up to use a CF<>IDE converter and
have no hard drive. To back those up, the CF card can be removed and
simply copied..in the remote possibility of the CF card failing, a new
one can be restored from the copy. Ideal for little dedicated NAS machines..

Oh, and, of course, there are tape backups...

 

[mutefan]

Some image tools allow you to image a drive to /files/ on either DVDs,
CDs, hard disks, or another computer on the network. Fine, you stick a
new, empty, replacement hard disk in and then boot off either a special
CD, DVD or floppy set up or provided by the image tool. It has an
operating system on it and will restore the image files back on to the
virgin hard disk.

Oh Lord... What a fine, thoughtful response. But I *still* don't know
if everyone here is saying my external (Hewlett Packard, cheapie, big
and noisy, 80G) HD is of no use when I go to Windows (XP)'s Hardware
Maintenance--the one with the Error Check and Defrag options--and
choose B-A-C-K U-P!!!

What does XP back up, if it doesn't "back up" Your--as in Your Own,
Your Personal, Your Excruciating Minutiae-Filled--Hard Drive?

I'm getting the vapors...

 

[mutefan]

Oh wait, I think I get it. Are IBM (real IBMs or non-Mac PCs)
programmed to boot only from either the floppy, CD/DVD, or hard drives?
And if the HD dies, the boot program won't look to, for example, my
Hewlett Packard external HD's USB connection?

Please remember that I *did* title this thread "elementary."

Thanks.

 

[William P.N. Smith]

What does XP back up, if it doesn't "back up" Your--as in Your Own,
Your Personal, Your Excruciating Minutiae-Filled--Hard Drive?

I can't answer that question, nor would I trust M$ to get something
that critical right, and since no-one seems to be using it, it
probably doesn't do what you want. If I were to guess, I'd suspect it
only backs up the files on the hard drive that aren't locked, which is
good for file recovery, but useless for 'bare metal' reinstalls.

Use a decent product like Acronis True Image.

 

[William P.N. Smith]

Oh wait, I think I get it. Are IBM (real IBMs or non-Mac PCs)
programmed to boot only from either the floppy, CD/DVD, or hard drives?
And if the HD dies, the boot program won't look to, for example, my
Hewlett Packard external HD's USB connection?

Well, maybe. It depends on the details of the particular machine,
it's motherboard, the BIOS, and the actual details of the (say) USB
device plugged into it. Some machine will boot from any USB device
(floppy drive, hard drive, flash-based keychain drive, optical drive,
etc) along with the usual floppy, hard drive, optical drive, network,
etc.

Usually, bare-metal restores involve booting from some kind of
recovery media in order to read the image off an external drive and
write it to the (new) hard drive.

 

[mutefan]

Usually, bare-metal restores involve booting from some kind of
recovery media in order to read the image off an external drive and
write it to the (new) hard drive.

Okay, don't laugh. Is "bare-metal" allusive? Or does it really mean
bare + metal, as in the CMOS (or something like that)?

(BTW, I think you're all toying with me and that you all really know
the answer to what the Windows-provided Back Up utility does )

 

[Barry Watzman]

Re: "Now if you image copy the original hard drive to another (whilst
the original is still working) - and the original hard drive fails - no
problem."

Well, sometimes there is a problem.

Imaged copies of Windows XP sometimes boot immediately and work, but
sometimes they don't, and you have to do a "repair install". And I have
not figured out why it works sometimes and doesn't work other times, but
that is the case (it may be related to XP Home vs. Pro and FAT32 vs.
NTFS partitions).

 

[Rod Speed]

(e-mail address removed) wrote

Rod Speed wrote

This seems like an overly obvious question,

Nope, this one is more subtle than it first looks.

but wouldn't the external HD, connected to the ThinkPad with
a USB 2.0, be as good as a CD or floppy to accomplish this?

The problem is that few systems can boot the external HD.
If the laptop drive has died, you normally want to boot the
CD to restore the image from the HD.

 

[Rod Speed]

Oh Lord... What a fine, thoughtful response. But I *still* don't
know if everyone here is saying my external (Hewlett Packard,
cheapie, big and noisy, 80G) HD is of no use when I go to
Windows (XP)'s Hardware Maintenance--the one with the
Error Check and Defrag options--and choose B-A-C-K U-P!!!

The problem arises when you have a failure of the internal hard drive
on the laptop. Its not as easy to restore if you've used the Win backup.

What does XP back up, if it doesn't "back up" Your--as in Your Own,
Your Personal, Your Excruciating Minutiae-Filled--Hard Drive?

It backs up what you specify, which firstly may not be the entire
drive contents, and even when it is, it isnt as easy to restore if
the laptop drive fails as it is if you use True Image instead.

True Image can also do file level backup like XP backup does,
and also does full images of partitions and entire drives too.

Quite a few laptops have special partitions on the hard drive,
and the XP backup doesnt even back that up at all, so it can
get messy if the laptop hard drive fails. Not impossible, but
harder to do than if you had used True Image instead.

I'm getting the vapors...

Yeah, its more complicated than it first looks and the first time
you discover that is when the brown stuff has hit the fan and the
hard drive has died. That can really give you the vapours |-)

 

[Rod Speed]

Oh wait, I think I get it. Are IBM (real IBMs or non-Mac PCs)
programmed to boot only from either the floppy, CD/DVD, or hard
drives? And if the HD dies, the boot program won't look to, for
example, my Hewlett Packard external HD's USB connection?
Correct.

Please remember that I *did* title this thread "elementary."

Better than alimentary, anyway |-)

 

[Rod Speed]

Okay, don't laugh. Is "bare-metal" allusive? Or does it really
mean bare + metal, as in the CMOS (or something like that)?

It basically means outside the OS in this context.

(BTW, I think you're all toying with me and that you all really know
the answer to what the Windows-provided Back Up utility does )

Nar, most of them dont actually use it because its got some real downsides.

 

[max]

I strongly suggest that you at least do the following:

1. run file and systems transfer wizard on your current machine (start¦all
programs¦accessories¦system tools¦files and settings transfer wizard) and
tell it that this is your old machine and you want to save your settings
only. Save them to your "my documents" folder.

2. copy the whole of your "my documents" folder to a dvd or a second hard
drive.

You will be able to restore your internet favourites, your outlook/outlook
express email data and things like your background and other stuff using
this strategy.

There are a couple of problems with this approach:

- You may miss something, unless you know exactly where all your apps
store all your data, and if someone understood XP and its apps at that
level, they wouldn't be asking such elementary questions, I believe.

- You still need to reinstall Windows, all apps, and all updates,
which is not only very timeconsuming, but liable to result in a
different configuration than before you crashed.

If you find that this is too time consuming, buy a program such as Acronis
True image, and use that for your backups.

TI will restore a typical non-gamer system to exactly the state it was
at the last backup within 20 minutes of installing the replacement HD,
IME. Not only is it far less time consuming, there is far less to go
wrong (though it's still not infallible, of course).

For someone of the technical understanding of the OP, TI and an
external HD is far and away the best solution for backing up a PC.

max

 

[mutefan]

Quite a few laptops have special partitions on the hard drive,
and the XP backup doesnt even back that up at all, so it can
get messy if the laptop hard drive fails. Not impossible, but
harder to do than if you had used True Image instead.

Will True Image or the other software people have discussed in this
regard back up proprietary software and partitions on HDs? Wouldn't
major manufacturers like IBM, Dell, HP, and the "ferr-ners" (Toshiba,
Sony, etc.) make it impossible not to image their proprietary partition
software?

Yeah, its more complicated than it first looks and the first time
you discover that is when the brown stuff has hit the fan and the
hard drive has died. That can really give you the vapours |-)

I gave away all the software that came with my ThinkPad, including
Windows, because a customer service rep agreed with me when I asked if
it wasn't redundant. IBM has one of those-- Those-- I really don't
know what they are-- That allows you to wipe out your hard drive and
reinstall factory contents; and I took this to mean it was a magic wand
that would sprinkle fairy dust on any HD I ever installed on it.
Oh, the pain of bein' po' and stupid.

 

[mutefan]

Well on this subject, a most unusual thing occurred this morning. I
called IBM and got the strangest genius whiz kid tech support guy. He
said his name was Doh (as in Homer S).

He had me go into the BIOS to teach me how I could find out if my
laptop would/could boot from another device beside the normal ones.
Before I called IBM, I had recharged my battery to 100% power. Doh and
I spent about twenty minutes looking at the Boot menu of the BIOS,
wherest my Yankee eyes had never strayed in two and a half year of
proud ThinkPad ownership.

I never did get to understand why he took me where silence has lease
(pardon me, dudes, I've been up over 24 hours and am getting punch
drunk, and quoting Star Trek). He talked about Enabling my USB as
opposed to Disabling it-----but what this had to do with booting, I'll
never know.

Anyway, the battery light started flickering. I left BIOS and found
that my battery was down to 1%!!!!!

My machine has been operating as if it's demon possessed lately--and I
mean REALLY DEMON POSSESSED. It's like when Data gets knocked out by
Lore and Lore pretends to be Data (there goes Star Trek again).
Spyware, AVirus, Error Checking, PC Doctoring, Defragging--I been doing
it all, and I don't know what would make a battery drop in twenty
minutes from 100% to 1%. I insisted to Doh it was going into BIOS, and
basically told me I was nuts. I'm at a loss to explain this sudden,
total, demonic power drop.

Good ev-e-ning.