Does warranty reflect quality?

[Gary Smith]

This might sound like an odd question. For my business we run 50 pc's
that consists of many off of the shelf boxes as well as a bunch of
home grown ones. Many of them are Win2K or Linux server.

At the begining of this year we decided to upgrade some of these
machines. From a hardware perspective it mean adding some additional
ram and replacing / upgrading some of the hard drives. When we bought
many of the machines we purchased the better drives (20gb or 40gb
drive which were $400 to $500 at the time - 3 years ago).

So recently we started to purchase some replacement drives. We
replaced many of the 20's with Maxtor 40's. Some had the 3 year
warranty others had the one. We didn't notice the warranty because we
bought 20 of them at one time.

of the 12 1 year warranty drives 2 of them still operate correctly. I
found that heat seemed to be the number one culprit (even though the
cases stay under 75 deg the drives are still burning to the touch).

So the title begs the question... The quality of these drives seem so
poor that they need to be replaced after one year. I'm not saying
that it's a Maxtor issue as we have had similar problems with other
manufacturers.

My primary AD controller for my network, which was upgraded to Win2K
from NT 4 has the same mirrored 5gb IDE's in it that I started with.
I think I bought those 7 years ago.

Over time I expected that quality would improve but it seems that just
the opposite has happend.

Just thought I would share my HD upgrade experience.

Gary Smith

 

[Ron Reaugh]

This might sound like an odd question. For my business we run 50 pc's
that consists of many off of the shelf boxes as well as a bunch of
home grown ones. Many of them are Win2K or Linux server.

At the begining of this year we decided to upgrade some of these
machines. From a hardware perspective it mean adding some additional
ram and replacing / upgrading some of the hard drives. When we bought
many of the machines we purchased the better drives (20gb or 40gb
drive which were $400 to $500 at the time - 3 years ago).

So recently we started to purchase some replacement drives. We
replaced many of the 20's with Maxtor 40's. Some had the 3 year
warranty others had the one. We didn't notice the warranty because we
bought 20 of them at one time.

of the 12 1 year warranty drives 2 of them still operate correctly. I
found that heat seemed to be the number one culprit (even though the
cases stay under 75 deg the drives are still burning to the touch).

That's the problem. Cooling must be supplied such that HDs do NOT run hot.

Warranty length is not an indication of quality or drive life expectancy
generally.

 

[Folkert Rienstra]

This might sound like an odd question. For my business we run 50 pc's
that consists of many off of the shelf boxes as well as a bunch of
home grown ones. Many of them are Win2K or Linux server.

At the begining of this year we decided to upgrade some of these
machines. From a hardware perspective it mean adding some additional
ram and replacing / upgrading some of the hard drives. When we bought
many of the machines we purchased the better drives (20gb or 40gb
drive which were $400 to $500 at the time - 3 years ago).

So recently we started to purchase some replacement drives. We
replaced many of the 20's with Maxtor 40's. Some had the 3 year
warranty others had the one. We didn't notice the warranty because
we bought 20 of them at one time.

of the 12 1 year warranty drives 2 of them still operate correctly.

So how are the other 8 doing?

 

[Gary Smith]

That's the problem. Cooling must be supplied such that HDs do NOT run hot.

Warranty length is not an indication of quality or drive life expectancy
generally.

It's not that I disagree but we have several fairly good server cases
with two rear and 1 front fan. The room itself is temp controlled to
69 degree's (about 55 in the the winter. These drives are mounted to
a lot of metal which should conduct the heat to some level. These
drives have to be at least 125 degree's as I really can't hold my
fingers on them too long without irritation.

How does the vendor expect the average Joe to cool them. The Maxtors
seem to get the hottest of them all.

 

[Gary Smith]

of the 12 1 year warranty drives 2 of them still operate correctly.

So how are the other 8 doing?

We had to get 6 of the 10 replaced. We use them know as part of our
build processes for workstations and other things. Basically, we use
them only when we need temp space and don't really care is something
is lost.

It seems a waste though. I have 1.6gb WD drives that have been in a
box for years... Back when they made drives to last longer (IMHO).

To alleviate most of these problems we are starting to use SCSI when
the project calls for a higher level of uptime. We have SCSI clusters
but the cost for our small company is sometimes more than we can bear.

Gary Smith

 

[Ron Reaugh]

It's not that I disagree but we have several fairly good server cases
with two rear and 1 front fan.

Number of case fans doesn't say much. Number of HD coolers might.

If you have a bunch of closely packed HDs off in a rack in the case then
they can mutually heat. There must be forced air over/through such a stack.

The room itself is temp controlled to
69 degree's (about 55 in the the winter. These drives are mounted to
a lot of metal which should conduct the heat to some level. These
drives have to be at least 125 degree's as I really can't hold my
fingers on them too long without irritation.

That's too hot. You should be able to hold your hand/fingers without
discomfort on them for a minute.

How does the vendor expect the average Joe to cool them.

The vendors expect a real HD cooling engineered case.

The Maxtors
seem to get the hottest of them all.

Which model Maxtor?

 

[Ron Reaugh]

We had to get 6 of the 10 replaced. We use them know as part of our
build processes for workstations and other things. Basically, we use
them only when we need temp space and don't really care is something
is lost.

It seems a waste though. I have 1.6gb WD drives that have been in a
box for years... Back when they made drives to last longer (IMHO).

To alleviate most of these problems we are starting to use SCSI when
the project calls for a higher level of uptime. We have SCSI clusters
but the cost for our small company is sometimes more than we can bear.

EIDE RAID 5 can provide just as good results and at a much lower cost. SCSI
likely isn't needed. JUST COOLING. SCSI HD cooling requirements are often
more difficult than EIDE.

 

[Bob WIllard]

We had to get 6 of the 10 replaced. We use them know as part of our
build processes for workstations and other things. Basically, we use
them only when we need temp space and don't really care is something
is lost.

It seems a waste though. I have 1.6gb WD drives that have been in a
box for years... Back when they made drives to last longer (IMHO).

To alleviate most of these problems we are starting to use SCSI when
the project calls for a higher level of uptime. We have SCSI clusters
but the cost for our small company is sometimes more than we can bear.

Gary Smith

I find it really bizarre that you will spend $ on SCSI HDs but not on
fans.

 

[Gary Smith]

So, looking at one of the odd drives that we had problems with
(coincidentally it's a 20gb) it's model is AT0301 (DiamondMax Plus 8).
Of note, something that I didn't notice before the drive says "IBM
WARRANT VOID IF REMOVED" in small print. But that's the model.

BTW, The cases are full hieght towers that have just the single HD and
a CDRom. I don't know the make/model number but it looks like one of
the alienware computer cases, just in black or blue... They always
seem to have good airflow. The fan on the from of the case does
actually send the airflow through the HD area.

As I mentioned before heat was never an issue even in the case with
the ATA raid with 4HDs. The heat problem seems only limited to these
drives that are 1/2 think (or so in size).

As for the SCSI raid I don't have any heat problems with them either.

 

[Folkert Rienstra]

We had to get 6 of the 10 replaced.

I meant the other 8 (the 3 year warranty ones).

 

[Ron Reaugh]

So, looking at one of the odd drives that we had problems with
(coincidentally it's a 20gb) it's model is AT0301 (DiamondMax Plus 8).
Of note, something that I didn't notice before the drive says "IBM
WARRANT VOID IF REMOVED" in small print. But that's the model.

BTW, The cases are full hieght towers that have just the single HD and
a CDRom. I don't know the make/model number but it looks like one of
the alienware computer cases, just in black or blue... They always
seem to have good airflow. The fan on the from of the case does
actually send the airflow through the HD area.

As I mentioned before heat was never an issue even in the case with
the ATA raid with 4HDs. The heat problem seems only limited to these
drives that are 1/2 think (or so in size).

So it sounds like you've found a specific batch of bum HDs. It sounds to me
like no other generalization can be drawn from your experience.

 

[Rod Speed]

It's not that I disagree but we have several fairly
good server cases with two rear and 1 front fan.

Those cases are clearly not providing
adequate airflow over the drives anyway.

The room itself is temp controlled to
69 degree's (about 55 in the the winter.
Fine.

These drives are mounted to a lot of metal
which should conduct the heat to some level.

But likely you have mounted the drives adjacent and they
are getting bugger all airflow, regardless of the case fans.

These drives have to be at least 125 degree's as I really
can't hold my fingers on them too long without irritation.

Then you should do something about the airflow over the drives.

How does the vendor expect the average Joe to cool them.

Just having a spare slot adjacent to the drive is usually enough.

The Maxtors seem to get the hottest of them all.

The Barracudas get pretty hot too.

 

[J.Clarke]

On 16 Nov 2003 19:20:42 -0800

It's not that I disagree but we have several fairly good server cases
with two rear and 1 front fan. The room itself is temp controlled to
69 degree's (about 55 in the the winter. These drives are mounted to
a lot of metal which should conduct the heat to some level. These
drives have to be at least 125 degree's as I really can't hold my
fingers on them too long without irritation.

How does the vendor expect the average Joe to cool them.

The "average Joe" should buy a machine from IBM or HP or Dell or
HP or Gateway or whoever I'm forgetting that has the cooling properly
designed by engineers with flow modelling software and instruments and
laboratories. Failing that, he should put his finger on the drive
and if he can't keep it there he should add more cooling. You got
yourself halfway there.

As for "fairly good server cases", get on ebay and find an Intel
Cabrillo-C (you'll also need the mounting kit, either pedestal or rack,
which is a separate item). Now _that_ is a good server case.

 

[J.Clarke]

On 17 Nov 2003 21:24:08 -0800

It's not an issue of money for hard drive fans. Yes, we spend some
good on SCSI and failover cluster for our exchange environment some
time ago. Our AD servers all have mirrored SCSI's. All fairly good
hardware it might add... No problems in years.

But the point drives worked in these cases for some years with no heat
issues. The new drives, which by chance only have the single 1 year
warranty, have the excessive heat issues and have had the problems. I
understand the heat exchange problem but there is plenty of air flow
through the units yet the HD's are still hot. There is at least 2"
above and below the drives.

My biggest point, and still my question, is does the warranty reflect
the quality. Everyone says no, just buy an AC unit per HD that you
buy. But still, those drives that had the 3 year warranty have less
heat (as they are not those 1/2 tall drives).

What do you mean by "1/2 tall drives"? Current production 3.5 inch
drives come in two form factors, "half height" which is 1.6 inches
thick, and"low profile" which is 1 inch thick.

This has nothing to do with the quality of the drive, and while there is
no doubt some effect on its heat dissipation due to the difference in
surface area, it is not enough that one should blame the form factor for
problems encountered.

I have in my possession Seagate Cheetahs in both form factors, as well
as other "enterprise-grade" SCSI drives with 5 year warranties. Even
several years ago the hot-swap SCSI bays in many server cases were
designed for the low-profile drives.

The warranty is a marketing issue--it does not reflect quality to any
significant extent--one manufacturer reduced the warranty period on
their drives in order to be able to lower the price (the cost of
warranty replacements, including the labor involved in processing the
warranty claim, is built into the price of the drive, which most people
do not realize, so a shorter warranty means fewer replacements and thus
lower cost) and the others followed suit, without changing their drives
mechanically or electronically in any fashion whatsoever.

If you check out the WD site, for example, you'll find that they produce
drives with 1 year warranties but they also sell "Special Edition"
versions of the same drives with 3 year warranties. If you put the two
drives side by side you'll find that the only discernible difference
between them is that the "Special Edition" drives have a larger cache
RAM (8 meg vs 2 on the "regular" drives).

Perhaps you should consider an alternative possibility. Unless you are
buying drives specifically for the warranty, your drives with a 1 year
warranty would be newer than the ones with the 3 year warranty. This
means, in general, that they have higher storage density. And nothing
is free--there is apparently some cost in heat generation for that
higher density, so the newer drives need more cooling, regardless of the
dimensions.

Perhaps in the future retail boxed drives are going to have to come with
a cooling device like retail-boxed processors do.

 

[Gary Smith]

I meant the other 8 (the 3 year warranty ones).
No complaints on those. One is a little noisy those...

 

[Gary Smith]

I find it really bizarre that you will spend $ on SCSI HDs but not on
fans.

It's not an issue of money for hard drive fans. Yes, we spend some
good on SCSI and failover cluster for our exchange environment some
time ago. Our AD servers all have mirrored SCSI's. All fairly good
hardware it might add... No problems in years.

But the point drives worked in these cases for some years with no heat
issues. The new drives, which by chance only have the single 1 year
warranty, have the excessive heat issues and have had the problems. I
understand the heat exchange problem but there is plenty of air flow
through the units yet the HD's are still hot. There is at least 2"
above and below the drives.

My biggest point, and still my question, is does the warranty reflect
the quality. Everyone says no, just buy an AC unit per HD that you
buy. But still, those drives that had the 3 year warranty have less
heat (as they are not those 1/2 tall drives).

If I could go all SCSI for my business I probably would but it isn't
in the cards.

Also, the model number of the drive I just got back in the mail today
(which was a replacement for a dead drive) was DiamondMax Plus 8, 40gb
ATA/133. Also, all of these drives were retail.

 

[J.Clarke]

Half-height has always been 1.6".
Remember ST-412? That was full height. Also first 5.25" floppy drives
were full height.

You know that, and I know that, but that does not mean that Gary knows
that. Hence my question.

 

[Alexander Grigoriev]

Half-height has always been 1.6".
Remember ST-412? That was full height. Also first 5.25" floppy drives were
full height.

 

[John H.]

It's not that I disagree but we have several fairly good server cases
with two rear and 1 front fan.

Many newer tower cases have space for 3-5 HDs mounted at the very bottom
with one or two fans directly in front. This is the only type of case I'd
buy from now on. This eliminates the need for any add-on HD cooler that can
cost as much as the case.

The room itself is temp controlled to
69 degree's (about 55 in the the winter. These drives are mounted to
a lot of metal which should conduct the heat to some level. These
drives have to be at least 125 degree's as I really can't hold my
fingers on them too long without irritation.

How does the vendor expect the average Joe to cool them. The Maxtors
seem to get the hottest of them all.

You should install DTemp and see exactly what the temperatures are for the
drives that support S.M.A.R.T and a temp reading (WD doesn't). With proper
cooling it should be easy to keep the idle temp under 35C and under 45C
maximum.
http://private.peterlink.ru/tochinov/

For poorly designed cases, adding an HD cooler of this type can help a lot.
http://www.pcpowercooling.com/products/cooling/drive/bay-cool/index_bc3.htm

 

[Gary Smith]

Half-height has always been 1.6".

You know that, and I know that, but that does not mean that Gary knows
that. Hence my question.

I also remember the ST225 (20mb). Thump it once and buy a new one...
Good old Seagate. We used to use the RLL controllers to get that
whopping 30mb out of it...

But, I when I mentioned half height I do that for many of the people
currently think that normal height is the 1" IDE...

Come to think about it I still have some old 300mb drives that work.
They were IBM (where's that quality now) and they had a 5 year
warranty. Which begs the subject again.