Cooling = Noise?

[Dmitri]

Hello everyone, need to tap into collective wisdom of the group planning
for building my next PC. Actually, planning a PC is already a step up for
me in itself. I normally just slap together parts bought at the local
computer fair ;-) Anyways, seriously speaking, I want to do it right this
time, and I was eyeing two-processor configurations. It’s not that money
is suddenly no object, I just want it to be a powerhouse that will stay
current for couple years, and I do routinely run multiple apps of which
one maybe a graphics editing software, and another one – CAD. It will also
require two graphic cards.

Anyways, one thing about two-processor setup is enormous amount of noise I
assume two processors’ fans and a huge PS and whatever other auxiliary
fans may be required will generate.

I will be using the PC at home, in a room that’s my office and,
coincidentally, my wife’s studio. So there should ideally be no noise, or
as close to it as it gets. Our current setup in this room with e-PC by HP
that has external PS is great in terms of noise, but the PC is way too
weak, so it’s gotta go.

Anyways, what would be someone’s path to advanced noise-combating
techniques? I’m open to any and all suggestions: water, liquid nitrogen,
Peltier pairs, whatever can be done in a residential environment , I’d
give it a try. Well, OK, liquid nitrogen is out, but anything else goes ;-)

Could someone provide any tips, links, suggestions about what worked and
what did not?
Any bit of info will be greatly appreciated!



-------------------------------------
--
Dmitri Abaimov, RCDD
http://www.cabling-design.com
Cabling Forum, color codes, pinouts and other useful resources for
premises cabling users and pros
http://www.cabling-design.com/homecabling
Residential Cabling Guide


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[Marc Hulsebosch]

You can just take an AMD X2, it costs less and performs just as good as
a dual processor setup. You won't have to cool two processors, and thus
your PC becomes more silent. You can use water of course, but it is
quite expensive and harder to install. It is easier to take a case like
the Coolermaster Stacker. It is large, has room for silent 120MM fans,
and it is just cool ( ). You should buy a good cooler. Preferably a
heatpiped one, with a large heatsink. That way, a slow airflow is enough
to cool the processor. You could take a look at these:

http://www.thermalright.com/a_page/main_product_xp120.htm

http://www.thermaltake.com/coolers/4in1heatpipe/cl-p0071SonicTower/cl-p0071.htm

Or one with a smaller heatsink, and a faster fan (but it is Zalman, and
they make good stuff):

http://zalman.co.kr/eng/product/view.asp?idx=165&code=005

Then take a few silent 120 MM fans (Papst, Zalman, Coolermaster), a PSU
from Zalman, Coolermaster or Tagan, and if you have a NB fan on your
motherboard, replace that one as well.

This is, of course, not everything, but it is an idea.

Marc

 

[kony]

Hello everyone, need to tap into collective wisdom of the group planning
for building my next PC. Actually, planning a PC is already a step up for
me in itself. I normally just slap together parts bought at the local
computer fair ;-) Anyways, seriously speaking, I want to do it right this
time, and I was eyeing two-processor configurations. It’s not that money
is suddenly no object, I just want it to be a powerhouse that will stay
current for couple years, and I do routinely run multiple apps of which
one maybe a graphics editing software, and another one – CAD. It will also
require two graphic cards.

Anyways, one thing about two-processor setup is enormous amount of noise I
assume two processors’ fans and a huge PS and whatever other auxiliary
fans may be required will generate.

No it's not necessarilyl an enormous amount of noise unless
you use poor/cheap heatsinks with (also) poor high RPM fans.

I will be using the PC at home, in a room that’s my office and,
coincidentally, my wife’s studio. So there should ideally be no noise, or
as close to it as it gets. Our current setup in this room with e-PC by HP
that has external PS is great in terms of noise, but the PC is way too
weak, so it’s gotta go.

Anyways, what would be someone’s path to advanced noise-combating
techniques? I’m open to any and all suggestions: water, liquid nitrogen,
Peltier pairs, whatever can be done in a residential environment , I’d
give it a try. Well, OK, liquid nitrogen is out, but anything else goes ;-)

None of this is necessary, and may easily be only a further
expense and maintenance issue with no noise reduction,
possibly even more noise.

Could someone provide any tips, links, suggestions about what worked and
what did not?
Any bit of info will be greatly appreciated!

By following the basic fundamentals you can have a quiet
system without undue maintanance or noise.

- Choose a case with ample intake area through the front
bezel, AND through the case frame metal wall. A bunch of
perforated holes just isnt' enough for a modern dual CPU
system, you will want a larger area. Before building a
system into a case, if your case choice is one with thick
(1mm metal or more if aluminum) sheeting, it can be modified
to improve airflow/noise ratio by simply allowing lowest
impedance to noise. However, if it will sit on a desktop
near ear-level, don't just put a huge hole in the front of
the bezel as that creates a direct path for noise escape
instead of the noise having reflected off of several parts
before escaping the case.

- Choose largest diameter possible, thickest fans and run
them at lowest RPM possible. This can mean choosing slowest
RPM fan a manufacturer offers but for most noise reduction
it often means using a further fan RPM control method.
Ideally the case would have at least a 120mm exhaust fan.

- High quality CPU heatsinks, with large thick copper base.
Again choose large diameter, thickest fan possible with
least RPM possible to attain necessary cooling. Don't fall
into a trap where someone leads you to believe you need to
get the CPUs running at some very low temp. Don't worry
about idle temps either, focus on full load temp. Full load
temp should remain under 70C for stability, or a little less
if you were overclocking. As important is to ensure the
motherboard and drives remain cool within the context of the
low-noise-optimized system.

- Exotic cooling of the CPUs does nothing for the parts
like the motherboard power regulation, while traditional
cooling of the CPU moves air that also cools the
motherboard. Key is simply to do so efficiently, to reduce
the noise the fans make moving this air.

- To keep PSU quiet(er) and to help cool the dual graphics
cards, put in a side-panel fan positioned such that it flows
fresh air between the cards, and creates a positive case
pressurization (or at least closer to it) so the PSU fan
doesn't have to spin as fast to move air through the PSU, as
most modern good quality PSU have thermally controlled fans
that will speed up from load, but the load being the
determination of level of heat buildup and airflow
requirement. In other words, depending on how your case
airflow is set up, the PSU could have more or less air
flowing through it at any give PSU fan RPM/noise-level.

- Because of the side fan or other potential scenarios
where the intake rate through the front of the case might be
lessened, make sure the drives stay cool enough. It can be
necessary to place a very, very low RPM fan in the front
bottom of a case to accomplish this. To keep that fan's
noise minimized it can be necessary to use a fan speed
reduction method such as a proper fan controller, a resistor
inline on the power lead or your choice of other method.
For absolute lowest RPM consider a control method that
doesn't limit current like a resistor would, rather a series
of diodes, a voltage regulator circuit or a proper fan
controller that uses PWM rather than resistive (or similar
rheostat) type reduction.

If you used peltiers, you increase the amount of heat
generated in the case, and an optimized fan is still needed,
and would need be at least same or higher RPM. With water
cooling, you add pump noise and a radiator fan (necessary
for this level of heat generation) in addition to a fan for
airflow on the motherboard. Trying to completely eliminate
fan-forced airflow in some areas would reduce life of parts,
it is better to use lowest RPM fans to achieve the goal.

Depending on which video cards you use, their stock fans,
this may be one of the loudest parts remaining in your
system. It may be necessary to use a different heatsink/fan
or a passive 'sink _plus_ a side fan.

 

[Paul]

Hello everyone, need to tap into collective wisdom of the group planning
for building my next PC. Actually, planning a PC is already a step up for
me in itself. I normally just slap together parts bought at the local
computer fair ;-) Anyways, seriously speaking, I want to do it right this
time, and I was eyeing two-processor configurations. It’s not that money
is suddenly no object, I just want it to be a powerhouse that will stay
current for couple years, and I do routinely run multiple apps of which
one maybe a graphics editing software, and another one – CAD. It will also
require two graphic cards.

Anyways, one thing about two-processor setup is enormous amount of noise I
assume two processors’ fans and a huge PS and whatever other auxiliary
fans may be required will generate.

I will be using the PC at home, in a room that’s my office and,
coincidentally, my wife’s studio. So there should ideally be no noise, or
as close to it as it gets. Our current setup in this room with e-PC by HP
that has external PS is great in terms of noise, but the PC is way too
weak, so it’s gotta go.

Anyways, what would be someone’s path to advanced noise-combating
techniques? I’m open to any and all suggestions: water, liquid nitrogen,
Peltier pairs, whatever can be done in a residential environment , I’d
give it a try. Well, OK, liquid nitrogen is out, but anything else goes ;-)

Could someone provide any tips, links, suggestions about what worked and
what did not?
Any bit of info will be greatly appreciated!

These are $1000 or more. There are a number of different
accessories. TNN500AF. Components still run pretty hot.

http://www.zalman.co.kr/eng/product/view.asp?idx=154&code=020

Paul

 

[kony]

By following the basic fundamentals you can have a quiet
system without undue maintanance or noise.

.... without undue maintenance or _cost_.

to improve airflow/noise ratio by simply allowing lowest
impedance to noise.

.... impedance to _airflow_.

 

[Dmitri]

No it's not necessarilyl an enormous amount of noise unless
you use poor/cheap heatsinks with (also) poor high RPM fans.

Thank you for the great informative post, kony.

I guess, I'm going to narrow it down to a large case with a slow 120mm fan
and possibly second auxiliary fan. You are right, the fans on the video
cards do worry me because they look like a part that you're stuck with
whatever the manufacturer put there, and it may not necessarily be the
most silent.

On my old system the hard drive was also a source of considerable noise.
What would be considered a silent HD these days? Any particular brand
known for the least noise?

One other thing I'm concerned about is whether or not the case itself will
resonate and amplify the noise. What performs better in this regard,
plastic-clad or all aluminum case?

And the last question for tonight: have you ever come across mounting
hardware (rails, screws, washers) specifically designed to dampen the
noise with rubber inserts of some sort. One thing I like about my current
e-PC is that the HD rails are complemented with a set of rubber-covered
posts that the hard drive securely rests upon. I think it's a nice design,
I can hardly hear any noise coming out of what I think otherwise is an
ordinary HD.

Well, all in all, a good suggestion on a case designed with silence in
mind will be greatly appreciated.

-------------------------------------
--
Dmitri Abaimov, RCDD
http://www.cabling-design.com
Cabling Forum, color codes, pinouts and other useful resources for
premises cabling users and pros
http://www.cabling-design.com/homecabling
Residential Cabling Guide


##-----------------------------------------------##
Article posted with Cabling-Design.com Newsgroup Archive
http://www.cabling-design.com/forums
no-spam Web and RSS interface to your favorite newsgroup -
alt.comp.hardware - 10383 messages and counting!
##-----------------------------------------------##

 

[Dmitri]

kony wrote:

.... impedance to _airflow_.

Resistance would be a better term, my friend. Impedance implies resistance
to varying flow which is probably not going to be the case, but I did get
the point ;-)

-------------------------------------
--
Dmitri Abaimov, RCDD
http://www.cabling-design.com
Cabling Forum, color codes, pinouts and other useful resources for
premises cabling users and pros
http://www.cabling-design.com/homecabling
Residential Cabling Guide


##-----------------------------------------------##
Article posted with Cabling-Design.com Newsgroup Archive
http://www.cabling-design.com/forums
no-spam Web and RSS interface to your favorite newsgroup -
alt.comp.hardware - 10383 messages and counting!
##-----------------------------------------------##

 

[Dmitri]

You can just take an AMD X2, it costs less and performs just as good as
a dual processor setup. You won't have to cool two processors, and thus

the Coolermaster Stacker. It is large, has room for silent 120MM fans,
and it is just cool ( ). You should buy a good cooler. Preferably a
heatpiped one, with a large heatsink. That way, a slow airflow is
enough
to cool the processor. You could take a look at these:

Man, thanks for the link! This Thermalight XP-120 looks mighty cool!
There was a link to a page with a photo of it, I thought it's worth
looking at:

http://www.silentpcreview.com/article186-page1.html


The only problem with such huge (though magnificent) heat sink is that I
would have no idea about how to pick a case to house this giant. I mean,
until you get a 3D CAD drawing of a case (and the sink) you'd never know
if the sink will fit in. Well, unless you have a full stocked demo room
with different cases, which I don't. I will be most likely buying from an
online supplier, such as newegg or tigerdirect, so it would be a hit or
miss game to pick a case for such sink.

-------------------------------------
--
Dmitri Abaimov, RCDD
http://www.cabling-design.com
Cabling Forum, color codes, pinouts and other useful resources for
premises cabling users and pros
http://www.cabling-design.com/homecabling
Residential Cabling Guide


##-----------------------------------------------##
Article posted with Cabling-Design.com Newsgroup Archive
http://www.cabling-design.com/forums
no-spam Web and RSS interface to your favorite newsgroup -
alt.comp.hardware - 10385 messages and counting!
##-----------------------------------------------##

 

[kony]

kony wrote:




Resistance would be a better term, my friend. Impedance implies resistance
to varying flow which is probably not going to be the case, but I did get
the point ;-)

Well it will be variable, as ambient temp may change as
might the voltage of the fans. However, you are thinking
of electricity, this is not electricity. The word "impede"
need not apply to an electrical concept outside of an
electrical context.

 

[kony]

Thank you for the great informative post, kony.

I guess, I'm going to narrow it down to a large case with a slow 120mm fan
and possibly second auxiliary fan. You are right, the fans on the video
cards do worry me because they look like a part that you're stuck with
whatever the manufacturer put there, and it may not necessarily be the
most silent.

On my old system the hard drive was also a source of considerable noise.
What would be considered a silent HD these days? Any particular brand
known for the least noise?

If it used ball-bearing motor, all the newer generations are
considerably quieter due to fluid bearing motors.
Supposedly maxtor are a little louder than average and
Samsung a little quieter, but all seem fairly close and
quiet. Then again I can't claim to have heard "all"
contemporary drive models so some online reviews might be a
better place to find this information.

One other thing I'm concerned about is whether or not the case itself will
resonate and amplify the noise. What performs better in this regard,
plastic-clad or all aluminum case?

Plastic-clad has the potential to be quieter, BUT only if
the parts fit together good. If they don't, or after it
ages some, it can be necessary to isolate or secure or fill
gaps with material like foam tape.

Aluminum can work, but it needs be thick, thicker than 1mm
for best results. Often the greatest issue is use of cheap
poorly balanced fans which vibrate. Avoid them, and if
necessary use insulators to mount the fans. A common test
to see how badly a fan vibrates is to power it up while
dangling it from it's power leads.

And the last question for tonight: have you ever come across mounting
hardware (rails, screws, washers) specifically designed to dampen the
noise with rubber inserts of some sort. One thing I like about my current
e-PC is that the HD rails are complemented with a set of rubber-covered
posts that the hard drive securely rests upon. I think it's a nice design,
I can hardly hear any noise coming out of what I think otherwise is an
ordinary HD.

You could use rubber grommets, drilling out larger holes in
the drive racks for them if necessary. Following link has
some ideas on it, but if you can find anothe local source
for the grommets that may make them quite a bit cheaper-
need not be "PC specialty parts", as rubber grommets have
existed for quite a while in the rest of the world too.

 

[kony]

Following link...

http://www.endpcnoise.com/cgi-bin/e/antivibration.html

 

[Timothy Daniels]

I will be using the PC at home, in a room that's my office and,
coincidentally, my wife's studio. So there should ideally be no noise, or
as close to it as it gets...

Have you considered putting it in a wood cabinet with a lexan
(plexiglass) door? I've done virtually the same thing with a
noisy Sun workstation, and the difference in sound level was
dramatic. The technique involves absorbing the sound with
scrap carpeting attached to the inside of a labyrinth. The
"labyrinth" is formed merely by making the sound turn a corner
so that the air passes freely but the sound is absorbed by
the carpeting on the inside walls of the cabinet. You can get
scraps of carpeting at any carpeting company and you can
use a staple gun or glue to attach it to the inside of the cabinet.
You can make the cabinet yourself or you can buy one in the
form of a credenza or a small assemble-it-yourself bookcase.
Just make sure that the exhaust air can't circulate directly
back to the air intake, and that the sound must turn a carpeted
corner (90 degrees or 45 degrees) before exiting or entering
the cabinet,

Another technique involves putting carpeting or a quilt on
the wall behind the PC that absorbs the sound of the PC's
exhaust fans. That also makes a dramatic difference.

The ability to make the noisiest PC quiet provides great
freedom in PC system design. In my case, the Sun workstation
was the first thing people heard as they entered my office.
After the "treatment", they would have to get down on their
hands and knees to hear the air flow. And I didn't have to
modify even a screw on the workstation to do it.

*TimDaniels*

 

[Dmitri]

Have you considered putting it in a wood cabinet with a lexan
(plexiglass) door? I've done virtually the same thing with a
noisy Sun workstation, and the difference in sound level was
dramatic. The technique involves absorbing the sound with
scrap carpeting attached to the inside of a labyrinth. The
"labyrinth" is formed merely by making the sound turn a
corner
so that the air passes freely but the sound is absorbed by
the carpeting on the inside walls of the cabinet. You can get
scraps of carpeting at any carpeting company and you can
use a staple gun or glue to attach it to the inside of the cabinet.
You can make the cabinet yourself or you can buy one in the
form of a credenza or a small assemble-it-yourself bookcase.
Just make sure that the exhaust air can't circulate directly
back to the air intake, and that the sound must turn a carpeted
corner (90 degrees or 45 degrees) before exiting or entering
the cabinet,

Another technique involves putting carpeting or a quilt on
the wall behind the PC that absorbs the sound of the PC's
exhaust fans. That also makes a dramatic difference.

The ability to make the noisiest PC quiet provides great
freedom in PC system design. In my case, the Sun workstation
was the first thing people heard as they entered my office.
After the "treatment", they would have to get down on
their
hands and knees to hear the air flow. And I didn't have to
modify even a screw on the workstation to do it.

*TimDaniels*

Thank you for the nice tip, Tim!

I did not consider building a cabinet before. I will now. There may even
be one off-a-shelf one for the desk I have. I would just need to carpet it
inside. Will definitely look into that.

What I did consider though, but could not find a reasonable way to
implement, was to move the PC into the adjacent room altogether and have
the controls extended via a CAT5 KVM switch. The problems were: I
frequently save large files on CDR, so I need access to the drive. Would
be PITA to walk there every time I need to insert a blank. The other
problem was I need multiple screens (two at least) and none of the KVMs I
know of support multiple monitors.

If anyone has an idea about how to solve these two problems, I would
better move the PC out of the room completely. It is not only noise it
generates, it is also heat, and having it in the adjacent room would solve
two problems at once.

Thanks again!

-------------------------------------
--
Dmitri Abaimov, RCDD
http://www.cabling-design.com
Cabling Forum, color codes, pinouts and other useful resources for
premises cabling users and pros
http://www.cabling-design.com/homecabling
Residential Cabling Guide


##-----------------------------------------------##
Article posted with Cabling-Design.com Newsgroup Archive
http://www.cabling-design.com/forums
no-spam Web and RSS interface to your favorite newsgroup -
alt.comp.hardware - 10552 messages and counting!
##-----------------------------------------------##