compressed ntldr

  • Thread starter Stefanie Niefer
  • Start date
S

Stefanie Niefer

Hi there,

firstable, sorry for my bad english.

I'm facing the problem, to make a recovery disk using winpe for my xpe
images. I have never done this, so my expierence in winpe is quite
sero.

As the depolyment of sdi-image from write protected media will not
work (access denied error), I try to find another way. Currently, I am
thinking about creating and formating disk (with diskpart/format
tool), and then to copy the files to cf.

Well, I think this should work, but I got the problem, that my image
has to be on compressed drive. This can be done with format switch -
no problem so far. But then all files that become copied are
compressed. how can I avoid, that ntldr becomes compressed, or how do
I become the ntldr uncompressed again?

Well, I can do this in normal win xp by right clicking the file and
change attributes, but how does this work on command line, as I need
an automated winpe solution, and attrib -? will not promt a solution
for that; maybe undocumented?

Thanks a advance!
Steffi
 
N

Nick Nehrhood /MSFT/

Hi Stefanie -
The binary you're looking for is COMPACT.EXE. Just run COMPACT.EXE /?
to find out the parameters of the application. You'll be able to throw that
into a CMD (Batch) File and it'll uncompress (or compress) items for you. I
don't remember whether WinPE has this or not so you'll have to get creative
if it does not. *Grin*

Best of luck.
 
M

Martin Grossen, eMVP [AVNET Silica]

Hello Stefanie

There is an OPK (OEM Preinstallation Kit) for Windows PE
2005a available with a lot of good dokumentation about PE.
(for free from embedded distributor)
There was as well a nice training at Microsoft Munic called "PE-fest".
If you want the presentation and training documentation, you can
contact me offline under:

(e-mail address removed)

....of course without the nospam.

:)

Grüsse aus dem deutschsprachigen Raum!

:))

--

Martin Grossen, eMVP

AVNET EMG Silica
Franchise Manager Microsoft Embedded Europe

Your competent partner for Microsoft Embedded licencing

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 
S

Stefanie Niefer

The binary you're looking for is COMPACT.EXE. Just run COMPACT.EXE /?
to find out the parameters of the application. You'll be able to throw that
into a CMD (Batch) File and it'll uncompress (or compress) items for you. I
don't remember whether WinPE has this or not so you'll have to get creative
if it does not. *Grin*

Thx, thats what I'm looking for. Unfortunatly, it seems not to be
included in the winpe OPK (at least, I cannot find that file), and I
don't want to face up with any licensing issues.That's why I don't
want to use a 3. party tool like symantec ghost. Works perfectly, but
licensing is very difficult, and I cannot hand it out for "free" than.
So customer allways has to buy an additional license. But I think I
have included it in my image, so it should be possible, to use the
files from my xpe-image after I copied them to cf. Creative enough?
Well, I hope that works like this...

Anyway, thank you!

Steffi
 
C

crus

Hello Steffi,
I'm not sure to have understood your problem.
If you are looking for an alternative to Ghost as a backup solution, please
give a look to
www.drivesnapshot.de
by means of this utility you can leave an image of your system partition and
have a recovery only solution.
Please tell me what you think about
Raffaele
 
S

Stefanie Niefer

Hi Raffaele,

I'm not sure to have understood your problem.
If you are looking for an alternative to Ghost as a backup solution, please
give a look towww.drivesnapshot.de
by means of this utility you can leave an image of your system partition and
have a recovery only solution.
Please tell me what you think about

Done. But actually, I don't need an alternative to Ghost, since Ghost
works perfectly. But Ghost will cost money. As I need a complete
licence free recovery-solution, wich I can give to every customer with
every PC for free, without getting into any licence trouble. You know,
I cannot sell a PC to customer, wich will cost about 3500$, and then
telling him, if you need a recovery solution, this will cost about 50
bugs more per CD/DVD. This is Ok, if I just made an offer to a new
customer. But what about the other PCs in field? Customers will never
buy again, if I'm going to tell, just buy a recovery solution.
Delivery time is about 4 weeks. ;-) Mostly they need an instant
recovery as I'm on the phone, but I have no witchcraft. And so I just
want to minimize the time the support has to fight with such broken
images, by giving every customer a free recovery solution.

But I found a solution. I just copy files now from a winpe CD / DVD,
uncompressing ntldr and regfdata-files with compact (wich is included
in my xpe-images). Before coping I start a diskpart script to setup
partitions and format them. Everything just within a batch file, thats
quite easy, and I got now licence trouble with it.

Steffi
 
C

crus

Steffi,
what you say is very interesting, but..., you are giving your customer a
recovery CD that boots on WinPe and starting a batch to copy system files.
First point: you need a WinPe licence, for that I know MS doesn't allow you
to give it away for free.
Second point, your customer is able to recover only System files and needs
to install again all its programs and settings..
A disk image utility is more flexible and more powerful
Raffaele
 
S

Stefanie Niefer

Steffi,
what you say is very interesting, but..., you are giving your customer a
recovery CD that boots on WinPe and starting a batch to copy system files.
First point: you need a WinPe licence, for that I know MS doesn't allow you
to give it away for free.

Acutally, Look at your win xp sp1 cd1. You will find a complete
working winpe on it. Then search for recovery cd on MSDN, and you will
find an article, that cleary states, that it is allowed, to give away
a recovery CD based on WinPE that is included on XPE Tools-CD1. The
only thing I use from WinPE is ETFSboot and OSCDIMG. Wich I can do,
because I got a CLA with MS to use these OPKs. But this tools just
generates the ISO-Image. So, I don't give away a WinPE OPK. And
actually on the licence papers on WinPE OPK it is clearly stated, that
you can give away one recovery cd per licence sticker.
Recovery cd is not the same as WinPE OPK-CD.

Please search for WAIK on MSDN-Downloads. It is now available to any
customer, not only to OEMs.
Second point, your customer is able to recover only System files and needs
to install again all its programs and settings..
A disk image utility is more flexible and more powerful

Of course, but better to just have a corrupted flash. Also he will not
have the problem, that all PCs will have the same SID. Thinking about
a custumer using a disk image utility after he installed all his
programms, and settings, and then applies this image to all the other
pcs he got. Ok. everything seems to be fine, but it isn't and it left
a big big security hole! So it can happen, that users got access to
resources they don't have permission to it, just because Admin is
loggon on with a PC that has the same SID. But this is quite a thing
nobody wants to think about, when he is using a cloning tool, because
it is so uncomplicated.

So that way of an image duplication isn't supportet by MS. I remember
a few articles about SIDs in Knowledge Base.
So the only official way to distribute and clone images is by using
OPKs, wich in fact I'm not allowed to give it away to customers. But
I'm allowed to give away a Recovery CD, that has been created with
these OPKs. And these cds will have included a preinstallation
environment that just start a batch file.

BTW, I recommend customers who wants to use cloning tools, to use
fbreseal before making the master image, since this will generate a
new unique SID after deployment. But the people mostly are not
interestet, they just complain about security holes in MS-Software...

Steffi
 
M

Martin Grossen, eMVP [AVNET Silica]

crus,

WinPE for servicing, maintenance and recovery in
combination of an embedded OS is for free for
Embedded OEM customers with a signed OEM CLA agreement.

--

Martin Grossen, eMVP

AVNET EMG Silica
Franchise Manager Microsoft Embedded Europe

Your competent partner for Microsoft Embedded licencing

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 
C

crus

Thank you, Martin for the pointing.
I had warnings, from OEM OPK not to give away it and missed an opportunity.
Now it could be a new trick from my bag.
Thank you Steffi for detailed description and links, your english is not so
bad: you write a lot without fear and it's clear and easy to understood.
Raffaele
 
M

Martin Grossen, eMVP [AVNET Silica]

....and she is also able to speak and understand Schwiizerdütsch!!!

:)))))

(insider joke)

--

Martin Grossen, eMVP

AVNET EMG Silica
Franchise Manager Microsoft Embedded Europe

Your competent partner for Microsoft Embedded licencing

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 
S

Stefanie Niefer

Thank you Steffi for detailed description and links, your english is not so
bad: you write a lot without fear and it's clear and easy to understood.

Thank you, but there is nothing I have to be afraid for. So I allways
try to follow licencing stuff best way I can. And I think I can sleep
well so far. But I was wrong with one recovery CD per licence sticker.
It is just one copy per customer. But anyway thats enough for me.

But I got a bigger problem, so I must use a disk image tool now. At
least for none unicode languages, since it is not possible, to burn a
cd with none unicode filenames wich unfortunatly occour in russian
(cyrillic) image. ;-(

Steffi
 
K

KM

Steffi,

What software do you use to burn CDs? Do you set the Russian as system default locale?

Nero can handle non-English characters in file names just fine. It is recommended to install system locale to the language you are
targeting and then install Nero. However, with MS AppLocale app you can avoid changing the system locale if you don't want to.

I've been using Nero to burn Russian data CD/DVDs for quite some time.

I heard Droppix can also handle that but I personally haven't tested it (http://www.droppix.com).
 
S

Stefanie Niefer

I'm sorry to come back to this point but the reply I read from Andy Allred
on:http://forums.microsoft.com/EmbeddedWindows/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=1087...
seems to say that WinPE is for each XPE licenced user only for its own use,
unless he signs a licence to ship it to the field.

Well, there is a seperate OPK called:

Windows PE 2005A EMB English OPK -2 ESD

This one is available for OEMs with signed CLA for free. Enclosed is a
licence paper that states the following:
--
Methods of Distribution:

Company may reproduce the Supplemental Code in object code from on
external media and distribute 1 copy of the supplemental Code on such
external media to each licensed end user of an embedded system
originally distributed with the licensed Produduct.
--

As licenced product Windows XP embedded Runtime is stated and all the
embedded operating Systems (like Windows XP Professional Embedded).
Also it is stated, that you can even distribute this through your
Website.

Well, you can get this Kit for free from your embedded licensing
distributor, from wich you bought the XPE Toolkit. You need this OPK
even to use the file on XPE Tools CD1. Since XPE Toolkit dosn't
inlcude OSCDIMG and ETFSBOOT, wich will generate a bootable CD-Image.

But as this OPK will not cost you anything, there should be no
problem...

Steffi
 
S

Stefanie Niefer

What software do you use to burn CDs? Do you set the Russian as system default locale?

I'm using Nero, but this is not the problem. Russian is my system
default locale. I don't want to use english, since every new created
user starts in english then. That is a thing I don't want.
Nero can handle non-English characters in file names just fine. It is recommended to install system locale to the language you are
targeting and then install Nero. However, with MS AppLocale app you can avoid changing the system locale if you don't want to.

Not Nero is the problem. I'm using cabarc (form System Support Tools),
to compress the files (specially documents & settings folder). But it
always cancels if a russian folder is reached. Than I tried to copy
the files, wich may work. But OSCDIMG cannot handle them, and cancels
image creation. Zip completly ignores that folders and will not
include them. :-(

Steffi
 
C

crus

Hello Steffi,
you are armoured to meet any objection :),
Thanks again, I should call my distributor!
Raffaele
 
K

KM

Stefanie,

I must admit I couldn't understand your problem entirely. Do you struggle with it on XPe runtime or your development machine?

If you do use Nero, why do you need to use cabarc or anything else?

Also, Zip (some versions) can handle non-english characters just fine. At least it does that with Russian characters here. What
version of Zip do you use?

You can also use SDI tools to get a compressed image of the disk. Look at the SDI loader/SDI Manager/sdi2hd tools from XPe toolkit.
 
S

Stefanie Niefer

I must admit I couldn't understand your problem entirely. Do you struggle with it on XPe runtime or your development machine?

Not with the runtime. As in first posting stated, I want to build a
recovery cd based on pe. Then I archive the files from runtime into a
cab file, because cab file is easier to handle and extract at
deployment. Just copy files with pe from cd to target (using xcopy)
will result in upper case (SHIFTED) filenames, wich will work, but in
startmenu this dosn't look very nice. Extracting files from cab will
avoid it. I don't have any expierience in developing software for such
a solution, I'm able, to write batch files, but that's it.
If you do use Nero, why do you need to use cabarc or anything else?

Because I'm very lazy... ;-) No, first thing is that filename issue,
then handling is easier and last, but not least it will save much
space on recovery dvd. Currently I got 5 Images on a DVD wich all will
be about 700MB uncompressed. And there are a few more languages to
come. And as I know, compressed files are not supported on udfs.
Also, Zip (some versions) can handle non-english characters just fine. At least it does that with Russian characters here. What
version of Zip do you use?

I tried with the zip from winrar. But there should be no additional
licence cost for an archieving tool. So this may only be an option, if
this utility is for free. Wich one can handle cyrillic character? Hmm,
I will try with Winzip Selfextractor.
You can also use SDI tools to get a compressed image of the disk. Look at the SDI loader/SDI Manager/sdi2hd tools from XPe toolkit.

Pfff, this don't work on a recovery dvd. I tried, but I always got
that access denied error. This may only work on a none wirte proteced
media. And actually sdi images allways seems to got that size of its
defined values - no matter, whether the space is really used or not.
So if I define a drive with 1 GB it will have the size of 1 GB, even
if it is empty.

I also was thinking about an XPE based recovery CD to avoid that write
protected issue by using ewf. But from my point of view, I will need
an own xpe runtime licence for it, since it will be a kind of an own
"embedded device".

Steffi
 
K

KM

Stefanie,

Comments inline...
Not with the runtime. As in first posting stated, I want to build a
recovery cd based on pe. Then I archive the files from runtime into a
cab file, because cab file is easier to handle and extract at
deployment. Just copy files with pe from cd to target (using xcopy)
will result in upper case (SHIFTED) filenames, wich will work, but in

Did you try another copying tool - robocopy (2K/XP Resource Tool kit)?
startmenu this dosn't look very nice. Extracting files from cab will
avoid it. I don't have any expierience in developing software for such
a solution, I'm able, to write batch files, but that's it.

I see. If I understand correctly, you cannot use a localized version of WinPE, that will handle particular language fine including
file name and etc., because on the same recovery DVD you are going to have multiple images with different languages, right?
If so, you've got yourself a problem if you are using WinPE 1.x (in WinPE 2.0 you can add additional language packs). Pretty much
any tool you use that deals with file system it may fail to copy files that include non-english characters if you use English WinPE.

Some ways how to fix the issue:
- Use disk imaging software (this will include some not free licencing though)
- Use WInPE 2.0 (AIK). Really nice improvement to PE 1.x. In fact, almost different OS. However, I dont know what the licencing
is there.
- Create recovery bootable CD/DVD that will boot to XPe. Here you can add whatever locales, language packs, etc. you may need.
XPe is way more flexible than PE. Thoughts on licencing here - see below.
- Use a small ("hidden") partition on the target storage where you can store SDI file temporarily to expand it on the main
partition. Note: you can always extend the main partition later to cover the entire disk with "diskpart extend" command. More
details below.
- Write your own disk imaging tool. This, btw, is not a big deal if you only going to stick with partition data (in other words,
partitionng you leave to diskpart). You will just have to do CreateFile on the partition to get to raw data.
... >


Pfff, this don't work on a recovery dvd. I tried, but I always got
that access denied error. This may only work on a none wirte proteced
media.

Sorry, my bad. This issue slipped my memory.
Even readdisk command requires write permission to the volume where the SDI file is located. We reported this ages ago but the tool
hasn't been fixed yet :-(
Although, I don't recall pricesely whether readpart command works. I'd assume it does't but have you tried it?
And actually sdi images allways seems to got that size of its
defined values - no matter, whether the space is really used or not.
So if I define a drive with 1 GB it will have the size of 1 GB, even if it is empty.

Yup. Although you could always "trim" the image (there have been some posts in this NG where we discussed possible solutions to
this). However, it'd probably involve a bigger effort that what you are doing now.
However, you can zip the SDI file. With all the zero's it will be compressed to only data content or smaller.

The beatity of the SDI is that it is free disk imaging tool for XPe. In other words, you don't have to deal with additional 3rd
party software licencing.
Disk imaging would help you to avoid any problems with files names and such.

Here is a possible scenerio [only theoretical one since I never tested it here]:
- Launch recovery CD with PE
- From within PE you launch you batch script that will do the following:
- partition the local hard disk. Use diskpart to create two partition.
- format and mount the second partition that will temporarily hold the SDI file - copy of the first golden partition. (don't
mount the first partition)
- copy required SDI file from DVD to the second partition drive. SDI file can be zipped or cab'ed here. You just create the
second partition big enough to hold the uncompressed SDI.
- use SDI tools (SDI Manager) to expand the SDI file to the first partition of the disk. (note: only use PART blob in the
SDI)
- unmount and delete the second partition with the diskpart (it is important to delete the partition here so that the space
become unallocated)
- extend the first partition to cover the disk (hereis more details on how you do that:
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/325590)
- reboot
I also was thinking about an XPE based recovery CD to avoid that write
protected issue by using ewf. But from my point of view, I will need
an own xpe runtime licence for it, since it will be a kind of an own
"embedded device".

If you're only going to use that XPe image for the purpose of recovery of your main XPe image you don't need to buy additional
licenses.
I'd recommend you to consult with your XPe distributor. They should let you know the legal aspect of it.
 

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