Come on ! 3 prompts to delete a shortcut ?!? Another I hate UAC thread

  • Thread starter Thread starter Puppy Breath
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Puppy Breath

I noticed the same thing on that Adobe shortcut. But not all shortcuts are
so nut-so.

You can always turn of UAC until you're done configuring. Then turn it back
on. Once you're done getting everything set up you won't get nearly so many
UAC prompts. I think I see fewer than one a day.

I run from a Standard account with a non-password-protected admin account.
So when I do get prompted I don't have to enter an admin password. Just hit
Enter or click OK.
 
Just my little side rant, I know it's just beating a dead horse, But I like
beating dead horses :)

I'm setting up a PC for someone else, so I'm leaving UAC and stuff turned
on.
I install Adobe reader and it loads those little startup programs on login,
so I go to Programs-Startup to delete them and I get 3 prompts. One to ask
if I really want to delete It, One to tell me I need to Confirm this
operation the deleted and the 3rd from the UAC that windows needs my
permission to continue.

I guess I have to ask, couldn't they have programmed the UAC to know that I
actually right clicked on the shortcut and choose delete, versus some rogue
program trying to delete something in the background ? And why can't the 2nd
confirmation message be enough, Obviously if I clicked "Continue" that means
I really do want to delete the file, so why the 3rd pop-up from the UAC
telling me accessing is denied and I need to allow the delete to happen ?

I know one doesn't delete that much stuff from the start menu, but really,
why 3 different prompts ? The 2nd or 3rd one is just plain redundant and not
trying to bash Vista , But it really makes windows look like it's too dumb
to know what's going on. I really would like the hear the Microsoft people
in charge of that, explain why we need 3.

Ok, I feel better now..Thanks
 
Just my little side rant, I know it's just beating a dead horse, But I
like beating dead horses :)

I'm setting up a PC for someone else, so I'm leaving UAC and stuff
turned on.
I install Adobe reader and it loads those little startup programs on
login, so I go to Programs-Startup to delete them and I get 3 prompts.
One to ask if I really want to delete It, One to tell me I need to
Confirm this operation the deleted and the 3rd from the UAC that
windows needs my permission to continue.

I guess I have to ask, couldn't they have programmed the UAC to know
that I actually right clicked on the shortcut and choose delete,
versus some rogue program trying to delete something in the background
? And why can't the 2nd confirmation message be enough, Obviously if I
clicked "Continue" that means I really do want to delete the file, so
why the 3rd pop-up from the UAC telling me accessing is denied and I
need to allow the delete to happen ?

I know one doesn't delete that much stuff from the start menu, but
really, why 3 different prompts ? The 2nd or 3rd one is just plain
redundant and not trying to bash Vista , But it really makes windows
look like it's too dumb to know what's going on. I really would like
the hear the Microsoft people in charge of that, explain why we need
3.

Ok, I feel better now..Thanks

3 ?! Three's not bad. I snipped this out of an article I read....

'In Windows XP, I can change the date and time by clicking on the time in
the System Tray and making changes in the pop-up dialog box. In Vista, I
get this really cool clock gadget on my desktop, but clicking its
settings icon only brings up a window that lets me change the clock style
and set my time zone. That's okay, but when I double-click on the digital
clock readout in Vista's System Tray, well, I can't double-click. A
single click brings up a calendar and another view of my graphic wall
clock gadget. A link in this window offers to let me "Change Date and
Time Settings." Unfortunately, clicking on that takes me to yet another
window where, you guessed it, I still have to click one more link before
I can change the time. And here's the real killer: When I select that
option, the User Account Control springs into action, telling me "Windows
needs your permission to continue." I select "Continue" and finally, I
can set the time and date.'
 
Just my little side rant, I know it's just beating a dead horse, But I like
beating dead horses :)

I'm setting up a PC for someone else, so I'm leaving UAC and stuff turned
on.
I install Adobe reader and it loads those little startup programs on login,
so I go to Programs-Startup to delete them and I get 3 prompts. One to ask
if I really want to delete It, One to tell me I need to Confirm this
operation the deleted and the 3rd from the UAC that windows needs my
permission to continue.

Its like the old how many people does it take to change a lightbulb
stories. ;-)
I guess I have to ask, couldn't they have programmed the UAC to know that I
actually right clicked on the shortcut and choose delete, versus some rogue
program trying to delete something in the background ?

Hopefully UAC if it doesn't get scraped altogether in the first
Service Pack at least gets some AI build in. I agree, it is pretty
dumb. Worse it creates a false sense of security.

Case in point, I have several applications that easily outsmart Vista.
Using them, they all by themselves they can move files around, delete
them, rename them and other routine tasks. However if I go to Windows
Explorer and try to do the same things manually you get endless nag
screens and worse still sometimes you can't change the permissions no
matter what, short of turning off UAC you're stuck.
I really would like the hear the Microsoft people
in charge of that, explain why we need 3.

I think Microsoft programmers get paid by the byte, which may explain
why Microsoft cranks out bloatware as opposed to smart software.
 
The shortcut is not in your user profile but in the All Users profile. This
means you are making a system wide change. I like UAC and am a staunch
defender of it. I recommend turning it off when setting up a new computer.
That is why the option exists to turn it off. Once the computer is set up I
turn it back on.
 
I understand that, but under XP, in the confirm to delete this dialog box,
it said, this deletes the icon for everyone, Do you really want to do this ?

and I might even accept that answer, if the 2nd (or 3rd) pop-up message
stated it's because I was deleting it for everyone. It just says, "Access to
Destination folder is denied", the 3rd pop-up message from the UAC just says
it needs my permission to carry out the file operation. There is no mention
of why I'm getting it. Plus, I know it's a bit much, but if there is only 1
user account on the computer, then why would it care about people that don't
exist ?

Anyways, I can understand your support the UAC and it's a nice concept, but
do you honestly agree that we need 3 prompts to delete a shortcut ? You
really think 2 prompts would be less secure ? And you really think the
average user is going to sit back and say, "oh yes, it asked me 3 times to
delete a shortcut, So I know it's secure, but if it only asked me twice,
then I know it's no better than XP"

I know you probably can't say that you agree that the UAC could be a little
smarter as some would take that as you agreeing the UAC is worthless.
 
The shortcut is not in your user profile but in the All Users profile. This
means you are making a system wide change. I like UAC and am a staunch
defender of it. I recommend turning it off when setting up a new computer.
That is why the option exists to turn it off. Once the computer is set up I
turn it back on.

You admit you turn off UAC when getting a new computer set up, but
fluff off that doing it then, perhaps one of the most dangerous
periods, pretending to do so is ok. Very interesting. Maybe instead of
being such a staunch defender of UAC you actually open your eyes to
all the flaws it currently has. Please don't waste our time saying it
in it's first version, it will get better, blah, blah, blah. Right now
UAC is a bow-wow and you just admitted it.
 
Of course I agree that UAC could be implemented better. I wish it didn't
even exist. If Microsoft had followed their own programming guidelines and
pushed harder for others to do the same UAC wouldn't be needed at all. We'd
all be happily running as standard users. You have found an example of where
UAC has gone wrong. My opinion is that currently it does more good than
harm. The inconvenience is worth it. It allows users to run most older
software. It also allow developers to quickly get a program running in Vista
so they don't lose market share. Once they have it running taking advantage
of the virtual store (which is part of UAC) then they can take their time
rewriting the program properly. UAC is a compromise that was needed to
bridge the gap to a more secure OS. I doubt very much that UAC in anything
like it's current form will be in the next Microsoft OS. By then programs
will be well behaved from a security standpoint and it won't be needed.

All forms of security cause the end user inconvenience. Look at what is
currently happening at airports and public gatherings. It all comes down to
how much inconvenience the end user will accept and what level of fear of
negative consequences they currently have. I have delivered a few computers
with Vista to customers now. So far they are happy with the increased
security. I had one complaint about UAC. I explained what it was and showed
them how to run their game with the compatibility wizard and Run as
administrator and haven't heard back. I'm assuming they are happy. If the
computer is set up properly and the hardware has good Vista support the
average user has a very good experience even with UAC enabled.
 
While I have UAC off the computer is not connected to the Internet and
programs are installed from known malware free CD's. How is this dangerous?
Where did I admit UAC is a bow-wow? Of course UAC has some flaws. I am sure
that exploits for it will be found. It's part of a computer program. That's
the current state of programming. For me the good it does outweighs the
inconvenience. For you obviously it doesn't. We have differing opinions. I
don't think I can convince you to change your mind and I know you won't
convince me to change my mind. Sometimes that's the way things work. I've
learned to deal with this. It appears you haven't. You constantly feel a
need to put words in other people's mouths to prove your point. You make
arguments for someone then answer your own made up point to prove your real
point. I don't mind debating you but please don't try to put words in my
mouth or make your point by saying what think may be my next point. Wait
until I state what my opinions are before trying to disprove them.
 
In message <[email protected]> DanS
3 ?! Three's not bad. I snipped this out of an article I read....

'In Windows XP, I can change the date and time by clicking on the time in
the System Tray and making changes in the pop-up dialog box. In Vista, I
get this really cool clock gadget on my desktop, but clicking its
settings icon only brings up a window that lets me change the clock style
and set my time zone. That's okay, but when I double-click on the digital
clock readout in Vista's System Tray, well, I can't double-click. A
single click brings up a calendar and another view of my graphic wall
clock gadget. A link in this window offers to let me "Change Date and
Time Settings." Unfortunately, clicking on that takes me to yet another
window where, you guessed it, I still have to click one more link before
I can change the time. And here's the real killer: When I select that
option, the User Account Control springs into action, telling me "Windows
needs your permission to continue." I select "Continue" and finally, I
can set the time and date.'

While I realize you're not the author here, how often are you actually
setting your computer's clock? And why?

(Keep in mind that Windows takes care of this for you by prompting you
during the install, and updating automatically when online)
 
In message <[email protected]> DanS


While I realize you're not the author here, how often are you actually
setting your computer's clock? And why?

(Keep in mind that Windows takes care of this for you by prompting you
during the install, and updating automatically when online)

Honestly, my PC clock gains time by about 1 minute a week. Right now it's
about 7 minutes fast, so I guess the last time I set it was about 7 weeks
ago. I have the time service disabled. Just because.

But seriously, that is one small detail. I'm sure there are 10's of other
things that you may adjust on your PC, for some reason or another, maybe
infrequently, that have similar procedure to go through now.
 
Of course I agree that UAC could be implemented better.

Good... that's a start.
I wish it didn't even exist. If Microsoft had followed their own programming guidelines and
pushed harder for others to do the same UAC wouldn't be needed at all. We'd
all be happily running as standard users. You have found an example of where
UAC has gone wrong. My opinion is that currently it does more good than
harm.

Well, most experienced users have the opposite view. UAC does little
right and just about everything wrong. Three prompt screens to get rid
of a unwanted shortcut? That's looney. Please tell us the risks
deleting a shortcut presents to the system's security. Don't bother.
I'll tell you. None, zero, nada.
The inconvenience is worth it.

Aggravating users trying to get work done is beyond a mere
inconvenience. It is both frustating and unnecessary 99 times out of a
hundred. Worse, UAC learns nothing from user input. It instead will
nag you to death over and over about the same things you told it you
want to do a hundred times before. That's not a feature. That's sloppy
programming. What's laughable is it took Microsoft five years and this
clumsy version of UAC is the best they could come up with?
I doubt very much that UAC in anything
like it's current form will be in the next Microsoft OS. By then programs
will be well behaved from a security standpoint and it won't be needed.

Let's be truthful. The only reason UAC was added was Microsoft finally
admitted that Windows is so poorly written from a security point they
had two choices, either start over from scratch throwing 20 years of
development and refinements in the trash or try to add annoying
features like UAC that merely makes users aware of risky practices and
in no way prevents them. I'll assume you are aware anyone clicking
through and telling UAC to go ahead and do something is the exact same
thing as running with UAC off. So WHERE is the security? Its mostly
marketing BS.
All forms of security cause the end user inconvenience. Look at what is
currently happening at airports and public gatherings. It all comes down to
how much inconvenience the end user will accept and what level of fear of
negative consequences they currently have.

That kind of security while annoying at least removes the security
threat, like hopefully preventing weapons from getting on planes.
Again, UAC doesn't prevent anything. It just nags, and warns. That's a
huge difference.
If the computer is set up properly and the hardware has good Vista support the
average user has a very good experience even with UAC enabled.

Totally untrue. I'm not an inexpereinced user as most people by now
have figured out. UAC is broken. If there is no way short of turning
off UAC to gain access to some folders and files I need to work with
because of some half-ass permissions scheme that at times you can't
override with UAC on even if you are logged on as an administrator and
even if you attempt to take over a "user" that say some goofy special
permission that Vista, not me assigned, what else would you expect me
to say?

The whole point is right now all over the world, there are tens of
millions of people using Windows that are NOT "average" users and
expect more from the world's largest software developer. Face facts.
Microsoft really blew it big time with UAC being at best half-baked.
It will turn a hell of a lot of people off and for no good reason. It
didn't have to be this bad. What were the beta testers and production
team that developed Vista thinking to release Vista is this crippled
form?
 
You're extrapolating your opinions into facts. I have not seen any surveys
to back up or refute any of your assertions. I wasn't equating UAC with
airport security. I was making a point that people will accept different
degrees of inconvenience depending on how threatened they feel. It appears
you believe you are quite safe safe surfing the net, running programs,
whatever. For you the inconvenience of UAC is more than than you are willing
to deal with as you don't perceive any threat. Many people do feel
threatened by malware and are willing to put up with some inconvenience to
mitigate it. Why are they wrong and you right? It's all a matter of opinion.
Time will tell which is the majority opinion. I agree that most people
reading this newsgroup have figured you out. My opinion is they have a
different view of you than you think.
 
Well, I myself run with the UAC off. I'm a daredevil and live by the seat of
my pants. I also run with scissors.

I wanted to feel the full vista experience this time and so I did everything
the way Microsoft intended, because in the past, I didn't last more than 2
program installs with the UAC on. Plus there have been different statements
that things install different (better?) with UAC on versus off. Adobe 8 is
an example, with UAC on, it installs fine. With UAC off, it will complain
that the temp folder doesn't have enough free space, because Vista doesn't
un-write protect that folder with the UAC off. I got around it by running
the install in XP mode, but that makes me wonder, if things are really
installing the way they should ? Time will tell, but stuff like this makes
me nervous. So in order not to have to worry about getting calls about
something not working and finding out it's because the UAC was off, I opted
to do this install by the Microsoft book. And as such, I despise Vista in a
by the book fashion.

My Girlfriend system runs with the UAC on 24/7 and she never complains about
it. But all she does is surf the web, web mail and play SIMS2. Anytime
something needs installing, she has me do it. So she thinks Vista is Awesome
!
 
Well, I'll be sure to report back if I get a call about turning off the UAC
or as I'm sure I'll hear it, Can you do something about those pop-up
thingies". But this person is far from a power user and surfing the web,
using word and off-loading pictures from the camera is about all their
person is going to do.

She's a grandma, and so she might actually like the extra security when the
grand kids play with the system, as they always seem to break things.

I just wish the UAC was smarter. I actually thought I would love the UAC and
IE in protected mode so that if I ever did stumble across one of those red
light district websites, I would be told if it was trying to hi-jack my
system. But with the way it works now, I just get too annoyed with it,
because I apparently do too much of the wrong thing.

I do have to agree with Adam to some degree, in that I believe users are
going to become numb to the generic message warnings and they are going to
go into Spouse mode when answering them (Yes dear, yeas dear, Umm Hmm, yep,
gotcha,, yes, yes dear) at which time it won't be some back door to the UAC,
people will invite the malware in and not know it.

I base this just over the way the family does things now. They see pop-ups
on web pages and never read them, just hit yes to everything. Next thing I
know, they are calling me, talking about Porn pop-ups whenever they open IE.

I honestly hope that I'm wrong on that. If for nothing else, I'd like to get
fewer phone calls with downed or degraded PCs that need fixing.
 
I like UAC and am a staunch defender of it.

I guess the OP should not beat the horse but Kerry Brown who defends such
UAC nonsense!
 
My servey is that with all IT people I have discussed for several months who
have tried vista
they say that UAC is horrible.. I would say at least 10 different people.
These people have 10+ years of experience and I have 14+ years....

Not one said it was a nice feature, only one of them said its ok for dumb
users...
but after a while he said it was a bad idea too....
 
While I have UAC off the computer is not connected to the Internet and
programs are installed from known malware free CD's. How is this dangerous?
Where did I admit UAC is a bow-wow? Of course UAC has some flaws. I am sure
that exploits for it will be found. It's part of a computer program. That's
the current state of programming.

Actually it is all about programming or lack of it. You know what a
rules list is? I'm guessing no, or you wouldn't have said what you
just did. Actually its a simple device where a software application
"learns" as it goes. It is employed in better firewalls for example.
When you first install such a program its a real nag, like UAC is. But
as you do your routine activities it shuts up over time.

Why?

Because when it pops up it ASKS you the user, not decide by itself how
to handle a particular event. So the first time your browser wants to
have access to the Internet such a firewall pops up a warning and asks
if you want to allow it. If you say no, dont give my browser Internet
access, it won't let it and it won't ask you again, it just will block
it until again YOU decide to let it have access. If you say yes
instead, again, it won't ask anymore. It remembers, because it builds
a "rules" list based on what you tell it. So instead of nagging
everytime you click on your browser it simply lets it go on the
Internet based on a "rule" it remembers. So the more your use it the
smarter it gets. UAC should have a rules list. Then it may ask do you
want to delete a shortcut on your desktop or drag a file to the
Recycle Bin ONCE, then it remembers what you taught it about desktop
shortcuts.

It even gets better. A good rules list also knows a application's DNA
so to speak. So if you have application X already installed on your
system and you upload a new improved update or new version it will pop
up again and tell you, hey this don't look like application X, are you
sure you want to allow it. This is good since malware often tries to
mimic looking like a trusted application you may already have
installed. So it correctly will challenge anything that looks suspect.
This is good. That is what I thought UAC would do. It is what it
should do. It seems so far with my admitted limited experience with it
that it is mainly just an annoying brain dead nag that goes right on
asking the same question over and over again. Ten times, a hundred, a
thousand times.

For me the good it does outweighs the
inconvenience. For you obviously it doesn't. We have differing opinions. I
don't think I can convince you to change your mind and I know you won't
convince me to change my mind. Sometimes that's the way things work. I've
learned to deal with this. It appears you haven't. You constantly feel a
need to put words in other people's mouths to prove your point. You make
arguments for someone then answer your own made up point to prove your real
point. I don't mind debating you but please don't try to put words in my
mouth or make your point by saying what think may be my next point. Wait
until I state what my opinions are before trying to disprove them.

You HAVE stated your opinions and I am simply responding to them. As
far as opinions they gain creditability when you can back them up with
factual evidence. I have. Now please give me one example where turning
on UAC actually PREVENTS anything bad from happening aside from it
just nagging about it with the usual result the user simply clicking
through and doing what he/she intended in the first place. I'm
listening.
 
You're extrapolating your opinions into facts. I have not seen any surveys
to back up or refute any of your assertions. I wasn't equating UAC with
airport security.

Weren't you the one that accused me of trying to put words in your
mouth? Now look at you, the one that brought up airport security as an
analogy and now you seem defensive because I poked a hole in it.
I was making a point that people will accept different
degrees of inconvenience depending on how threatened they feel. It appears
you believe you are quite safe safe surfing the net, running programs,
whatever.

There you go again. I do things that provide REAL security that I'm
afraid are over your head. Way over. Yet you seem to have a need to
try to talk down to everybody that doesn't agree with your opinions.
Those silly MVP titles tend to do that to a lot of people.
For you the inconvenience of UAC is more than than you are willing
to deal with as you don't perceive any threat. Many people do feel
threatened by malware and are willing to put up with some inconvenience to
mitigate it. Why are they wrong and you right? It's all a matter of opinion.
Time will tell which is the majority opinion. I agree that most people
reading this newsgroup have figured you out. My opinion is they have a
different view of you than you think.

I figured you out after reading just a couple of your holier-then-thou
posts. I see you haven't changed or mellowed. Too bad. I'm just trying
to help people. Why are you here?
 
For you the inconvenience of UAC is
more than than you are willing to deal with as you don't perceive any
threat. Many people do feel threatened by malware and are willing to
put up with some inconvenience to mitigate it.

Ahhhhh. Here's the real issue....Malware.

That is the biggest problem right ?

The question is, why didn't M$ just fix IE to be secure. If using Firefox
is orders of magnitude's more secure than IE6, why can't IE be the same ?

Or, have UAC only function on processes run through browser's or
processes spawned by browser processes.

When was there malware/spyware installed NOT through a browser other than
coming bundled with other wares (of which you agree to install anway
because you don't bother to skim the EULA).

Any issue caused by OE or Outlook is considered IE as they share the HTML
rendering engine.

If the security of IE7 is so greatly improved, why should using UAC be
necessary ?

Granted, with such a huge code base as Windows, I can see how there can
be bugs and other issues, but the problem to me seems to be that the
decision for MS to make IE a part of the OS also exposed too much of the
underlying OS functionality.

Regards,

DanS
 
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