Cloning to new larger HDD, problems?


J

Joan

Hi,
I'm going to need a larger master drive, so I'm planning on cloning
using Acronis 9. My question is this, can I remove my #2 HDD which is
"D", put in the new HDD on that secondary, do the cloning, remove the
old "C" Drive and replace it with the new larger cloned drive, put the
"D" drive back into that slot, and expect all this to go smoothly? The
clone software will expand the old partition to the new size, what
worries me is that my existing C drive is Fat32 and the new drive will
no doubt have to be formated NTFS.

Thanks,
Joan
 
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A

Anna

Joan said:
Hi,
I'm going to need a larger master drive, so I'm planning on cloning
using Acronis 9. My question is this, can I remove my #2 HDD which is
"D", put in the new HDD on that secondary, do the cloning, remove the
old "C" Drive and replace it with the new larger cloned drive, put the
"D" drive back into that slot, and expect all this to go smoothly? The
clone software will expand the old partition to the new size, what
worries me is that my existing C drive is Fat32 and the new drive will
no doubt have to be formated NTFS.

Thanks,
Joan


Joan:
You're on the right track. It would be best to disconnect your "#2 HDD"
prior to the disk cloning operation. It's always best to have connected
*only* your source disk (your C: drive in this instance) and your
destination disk (your new HDD) during the disk cloning operation. There's
no need to physically remove that #2 HDD - just disconnect its power/data
cable. (I'm assuming that you plan to retain that drive in your system
following the disk cloning operation).

As things now stand your newly-cloned HDD will retain the same file system
as your source disk, i.e., the FAT32 file system. You could - prior to the
disk cloning operation - convert your present boot drive to NTFS and then go
through the disk cloning operation so that the cloned disk will have the
NTFS. But I would recommend that you perform the disk cloning operation with
your current C: drive (including its FAT32 file system) and *then* convert
your destination drive (your new HDD) to NTFS. That way you would avoid any
problems in the unlikely event things go awry with the conversion process of
your source disk - your present C: drive. And you would still have your
original source disk intact - *always* a desirable thing.

Please understand there is no need to format your new HDD NTFS prior to the
disk cloning operation. As mentioned above, the destination disk will take
on the file system of the source disk.

You haven't said what you intend to do with your present C: drive. Will that
be a third internal HDD in your system? Or will you be using it in an
external enclosure? That could be desirable for maintaining a backup system
using your Acronis disk imaging program on a routine basis.

I assume you've worked with the Acronis program before. But if you (or
anyone else) need step-by-step instructions for using that program, please
so indicate and I'll post them again.
Anna
 
R

Rock

Hi,
I'm going to need a larger master drive, so I'm planning on cloning
using Acronis 9. My question is this, can I remove my #2 HDD which is
"D", put in the new HDD on that secondary, do the cloning, remove the
old "C" Drive and replace it with the new larger cloned drive, put the
"D" drive back into that slot, and expect all this to go smoothly? The
clone software will expand the old partition to the new size, what
worries me is that my existing C drive is Fat32 and the new drive will
no doubt have to be formated NTFS.

Just to emphasize one thing to yours and Anna's post, after you clone the
new drive, (with the only drives in the system being the original boot drive
as Master and the new drive as slave), remove all drives and boot up only
with the new drive in the Master position. After the first boot you can
reinstall the old slave drive.
 
J

Joan

Thanks for the tips, I'll do the clone and then convert the file
system, makes sense, but what about the fat32 30 GB limit, what will
happen with that as I plan on getting >80 GB replacement drive. Will
the partition size be recognised properly after converting the file
system? I only want the one large partition on the new drive so as to
preserve the #2 HDD's drive letter. I know the cons of doing it that
way, but it seems best for me. Another thought, I've read that Casper
3.0 will do the conversion automatically during the cloning process,
is it worth it to buy this software? TIA
 
J

Joan

Will do, I've heard about drive designation mix -ups after the clone
process, wonder why that would happen.
 
R

Rock

Will do, I've heard about drive designation mix -ups after the clone
process, wonder why that would happen.

It occurs when you leave the other drives connected when first booting the
new cloned drive.
 
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A

Anna

Joan said:
Thanks for the tips, I'll do the clone and then convert the file
system, makes sense, but what about the fat32 30 GB limit, what will
happen with that as I plan on getting >80 GB replacement drive. Will
the partition size be recognised properly after converting the file
system? I only want the one large partition on the new drive so as to
preserve the #2 HDD's drive letter. I know the cons of doing it that
way, but it seems best for me. Another thought, I've read that Casper
3.0 will do the conversion automatically during the cloning process,
is it worth it to buy this software? TIA


Joan:
Just to make this clear...

XP does have a 32 GB FAT32 limitation in the sense that the operating system
will not allow a user to create a FAT32 formatted partition that is greater
than 32 GB. (I assume that's what you're referring to when you mention a "30
GB limit"). That limitation is of no consequence in your situation.

When you clone the contents of your source HDD to your new larger-capacity
HDD the entire contents of that source HDD will then reside on the new HDD -
in effect, a copy of the "old" HDD, but now you'll have additional disk
capacity. The file system will be the file system of the source HDD, in this
case FAT32. No FAT32 partitioning/formatting limitation is involved here.

You'll then convert the file system to NTFS as you plan. I really don't see
any need for an additional purchase of the Casper disk imaging program in
this situation since you already have the Acronis program and that should be
sufficient.
Anna
 
R

Ron Sommer

snipped

: XP does have a 32 GB FAT32 limitation in the sense that the operating
system
: will not allow a user to create a FAT32 formatted partition that is
greater
: than 32 GB. (I assume that's what you're referring to when you mention a
"30
: GB limit"). That limitation is of no consequence in your situation.
:
: When you clone the contents of your source HDD to your new larger-capacity
: HDD the entire contents of that source HDD will then reside on the new
HDD -
: in effect, a copy of the "old" HDD, but now you'll have additional disk
: capacity. The file system will be the file system of the source HDD, in
this
: case FAT32. No FAT32 partitioning/formatting limitation is involved here.
:
: You'll then convert the file system to NTFS as you plan. I really don't
see
: any need for an additional purchase of the Casper disk imaging program in
: this situation since you already have the Acronis program and that should
be
: sufficient.
: Anna
:
:
Anna's direction for cloning=>
The following are step-by-step instructions for using the Acronis True Image
9 program to clone the contents of one HDD to an external HDD. (The steps
are essentially the same using the newer ATI 10 version):

1. With both hard drives (source & destination disks) connected, boot up.
Ensure that no other storage devices, e.g., flash drives, ZIP drives, etc.,
are connected. It's also probably a good idea to shut down any programs you
may have working in the background - including any anti-virus anti-spyware
programs - before undertaking this disk-to-disk cloning operation.

2. Access the Acronis True Image 9 program and under "Pick a Task", click
on "Clone Disk". (In the ATI 10 version click on "Manage Hard Disks" in the
"Pick a Tool" area and on the next screen click on "Clone Disk").

3. On the next "Welcome to the Disk Clone Wizard!" window, click Next.

4. On the next "Clone Mode" window select the Automatic option (it should
be the default option selected) and click Next.

5. On the next "Source Hard Disk" window, ensure that the correct source
HDD (the disk you're cloning from) has been selected (click to highlight).
Click Next.

6. On the next "Destination Hard Disk" window, ensure that the correct
destination HDD (the disk you're cloning to) has been selected (again, click
to highlight). Click Next.

7. On the next window, select the option "Delete partitions on the
destination hard disk". Understand that all data presently on the disk that
will be the recipient of the clone will be deleted prior to the disk cloning
operation. Click Next.

8. The next window will reflect the source and destination disks. Again,
confirm that the correct drives have been selected. Click Next.

9. On the next window click on the Proceed button. A message box will
display indicating that a reboot will be required to undertake the disk
cloning operation. Click Reboot.

10. The cloning operation will proceed during the reboot. With modern
components and a medium to high-powered processor, data transfer rate will
be somewhere in the range of about 450 MB/min to 800 MB/min when cloning to
a USB external HDD; considerably faster when cloning to another internal
HDD.

11. When the cloning operation has been completed, a message will appear
indicating the disk cloning process has been successful and instructs you to
shut down the computer by pressing any key. Do so and disconnect your USB
external HDD.

If, however, the destination drive has been another *internal* HDD, see the
NOTE below.

12. Note that the cloned contents now residing on the USB external HDD take
on the file system of the source drive. For example, if prior to the
disk-cloning operation your USB external HDD had been FAT32-formatted and
your XP OS was NTFS-formatted, the cloned contents will be NTFS-formatted.
There is no need to format the USB external HDD prior to the disk-cloning
operation. Similarly, there is no need prior to the disk-cloning operation
to format an internal HDD should you be using an internal HDD as the
destination drive .

13. Restoration of the system can be achieved by cloning the contents of the
data residing on the external HDD to an internal HDD through the normal
disk-cloning process as described above.

NOTE: Just one other point that should be emphasized with respect to the
disk cloning operation should the recipient of the clone be another internal
HDD and not a USB or Firewire external HDD. Immediately following the disk
cloning operation the machine should be shutdown and the source HDD should
be disconnected. Boot ONLY to the newly-cloned drive. DO NOT BOOT
IMMEDIATELY FOLLOWING THE CLONING OPERATION WITH BOTH DRIVES CONNECTED.
Doing so is likely to cause future boot problems with the cloned drive.
Obviously there is no problem in this area should a USB or Firewire EHD be
the recipient of the clone since that device is not ordinarily bootable in
an XP environment.
************
Anna,

After cloning to the larger drive, what size partition is created on the
larger drive?
Does the cloning create a partition to fill the whole drive?
 
A

Anna

Ron Sommer said:
Anna,
After cloning to the larger drive, what size partition is created on the
larger drive?
Does the cloning create a partition to fill the whole drive?


Ronald:
In effect, yes. Say, for example, the source disk is a single-partitioned 40
GB HDD with 30 GB of data. And the destination disk (the recipient of the
clone) is a 160 HDD. After the disk cloning process the destination drive
will be single-partitioned containing, of course, 30 GB of data.

Another example (using the Acronis program)...
Source disk is a 80 GB HDD (actual approx. 74.5 GB) multi-partitioned...
Partition 1 has 45.2 GB of data (61% of total disk space)
Partition 2 has 29.3 GB of data (39% " " " " )

Destination disk is a 160 GB HDD (actual approx 153.3 GB)
After the disk-to-disk cloning operation...
Partition 1 will contain the 45.2 GB of data in a partition of 93.1 GB (61%
of total disk space)
Partition 2 will contain the 29.3 GB of data in a partition of 60.2 GB (31%
of total disk space)

Note the same disk space proportions will be carried over from the source to
the destination disk.

If one uses the Acronis disk imaging capability rather than the disk-to-disk
cloning process, disk images of *individual* partitions can be created. In
the above example involving the multi-partitioned HDD - if the user wanted
to copy over to another HDD *only* the second partition of the source HDD
he/she would have to do so through the Acronis disk imaging process
involving *only* the second partition. That specific partition could be
later restored through the recovery process. Acronis does *not* have the
capability of creating a clone of *individual* partitions in the same way as
its disk-to-disk cloning process. The program can only perform a (entire)
disk-to-disk cloning operation.

The above refers specifically to the Acronis True Image 9 program. I haven't
worked very much with the new ATI 10 version, but I don't believe any major
changes have been made here.
Anna
 
R

Ron Sommer

:
: : > Anna,
: > After cloning to the larger drive, what size partition is created on the
: > larger drive?
: > Does the cloning create a partition to fill the whole drive?
: > --
: > Ronald Sommer
:
:
: Ronald:
: In effect, yes. Say, for example, the source disk is a single-partitioned
40
: GB HDD with 30 GB of data. And the destination disk (the recipient of the
: clone) is a 160 HDD. After the disk cloning process the destination drive
: will be single-partitioned containing, of course, 30 GB of data.
:
: Another example (using the Acronis program)...
: Source disk is a 80 GB HDD (actual approx. 74.5 GB) multi-partitioned...
: Partition 1 has 45.2 GB of data (61% of total disk space)
: Partition 2 has 29.3 GB of data (39% " " " " )
:
: Destination disk is a 160 GB HDD (actual approx 153.3 GB)
: After the disk-to-disk cloning operation...
: Partition 1 will contain the 45.2 GB of data in a partition of 93.1 GB
(61%
: of total disk space)
: Partition 2 will contain the 29.3 GB of data in a partition of 60.2 GB
(31%
: of total disk space)
:
: Note the same disk space proportions will be carried over from the source
to
: the destination disk.
:
: If one uses the Acronis disk imaging capability rather than the
disk-to-disk
: cloning process, disk images of *individual* partitions can be created. In
: the above example involving the multi-partitioned HDD - if the user wanted
: to copy over to another HDD *only* the second partition of the source HDD
: he/she would have to do so through the Acronis disk imaging process
: involving *only* the second partition. That specific partition could be
: later restored through the recovery process. Acronis does *not* have the
: capability of creating a clone of *individual* partitions in the same way
as
: its disk-to-disk cloning process. The program can only perform a (entire)
: disk-to-disk cloning operation.
:
: The above refers specifically to the Acronis True Image 9 program. I
haven't
: worked very much with the new ATI 10 version, but I don't believe any
major
: changes have been made here.
: Anna
:
:
Thanks for the information.
So if the original disk has a hidden recovery partition, the new disk will
have a recovery partition?
What happens if the original disk has unpartitioned space?
 
G

George W. Barrowcliff

Anna:
I have Acronis, v9 I think but have never installed it, and an IBM
Thinkcentre tower. The 40 gb drive is partitioned as 20 for XP, 10 for data
and 20 for a primary OS2 partition along with the normal hidden IBM service
partition.

I would like to replace the drive with a new 300 gb drive, keeping the XP,
data and service partitions and dropping the OS2 partition.

Is this possible with Acronis?
If not, and I do a simple clone from 40 to 300, I understand the percentages
will be retained, this is OK but will the hidden service partition be
retained?

TIA, GWB
 
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T

Timothy Daniels

Rock said:
Just to emphasize one thing to yours and Anna's post,
after you clone the new drive, (with the only drives in the
system being the original boot drive as Master and the
new drive as slave), remove all drives and boot up only
with the new drive in the Master position. After the first
boot you can reinstall the old slave drive.


Isolating the clone from its "parent" OS at the clone's
first startup is good procedure.

But the clone doesn't have to be set as Master or in
the "Master position". As long as the clone is on the
only HD connected in the system, the BIOS will put that
HD at the head of the hard drive boot porder, and that
HD will be seen as "rdisk(0)", just as the "parent's" HD
had been. To be explicit, the clone can be on a HD
jumpered as Slave on the secondary IDE channel, and
if it's the only HD connected in the system, its MBR will
still be given control at boot time, and ntldr will see it as
"rdisk(0)" when looking in boot.ini for directions on
where to find the OS to load.

*TimDaniels*
 
R

Rock

Timothy Daniels said:
Isolating the clone from its "parent" OS at the clone's
first startup is good procedure.

But the clone doesn't have to be set as Master or in
the "Master position". As long as the clone is on the
only HD connected in the system, the BIOS will put that
HD at the head of the hard drive boot porder, and that
HD will be seen as "rdisk(0)", just as the "parent's" HD
had been. To be explicit, the clone can be on a HD
jumpered as Slave on the secondary IDE channel, and
if it's the only HD connected in the system, its MBR will
still be given control at boot time, and ntldr will see it as
"rdisk(0)" when looking in boot.ini for directions on
where to find the OS to load.

*TimDaniels*


Yes, I just didn't want to give her the extra details. Since she wants to
use that drive as the primary boot drive it was just easier to describe it
as such, but thanks for the clarification.
 
T

Timothy Daniels

Rock said:
Yes, I just didn't want to give her the extra details.

I understand. And... one reason why people come to
firmly believe that the Master HD on IDE ch. 0 will
always be the "boot drive", or that it must always
contain the OS, or that the boot files must always be
in the same partition with the OS, etc., is because of
such abbreviated replies. Most newbies don't realize
that they're getting the simplest scenario and so interpret
the reply as the only scenario.

This is not to denigrate your response, as this forum's
flood of postings doesn't allow for a treatise reply to
each question. I do feel, though, that occasionally a
comment such as "this is the simplest way to get what
you want done, but not the only way" would help a lot
in the long run.

*TimDaniels*
 
A

Anna

George W. Barrowcliff said:
Anna:
I have Acronis, v9 I think but have never installed it, and an IBM
Thinkcentre tower. The 40 gb drive is partitioned as 20 for XP, 10 for
data
and 20 for a primary OS2 partition along with the normal hidden IBM
service
partition.

I would like to replace the drive with a new 300 gb drive, keeping the XP,
data and service partitions and dropping the OS2 partition.

Is this possible with Acronis?
If not, and I do a simple clone from 40 to 300, I understand the
percentages
will be retained, this is OK but will the hidden service partition be
retained?

TIA, GWB


George:
A clone is a clone is a clone. Whatever partitions exist on the source HDD
will, in effect, be copied over to the destination disk, including any
hidden partition(s). I suppose the most practical course for you would be to
clone your present 40 GB HDD to the 300 GB HDD and then either delete the
data in the OS2 partition or delete that partition itself. If you choose the
latter partition deletion then that disk space will, of course, be
considered "unallocated" space to be partitioned/formatted or using a
partition management program, e.g., Partition Magic, you could merge that
disk space with an adjoining partition.

Our preference is *not* to manipulate partitions on the source disk *prior*
to a disk cloning operation but to do so on the destination drive after a
successful disk cloning operation. For obvious reasons we nearly always try
to keep the source disk in its original state before undertaking the disk
cloning operation.
Anna
 
T

Timothy Daniels

An option, of course, is to use a cloning utility which can
make clones of individual partitions, such as Symantec's
Ghost or Future Systems Solutions' Casper XP. Those
utilities can take separate partitions off one hard drive,
and in producing a clone of it on another hard drive, create
a partition for it of a size specified by the user. In the OP's
situation, each of the two desired partitions would be
cloned to the 2nd hard drive and their sizes chosen by the
user so as to entirely fill the 300GB of the 2nd hard drive.

Symantec's Ghost is a well-known utility that can be bought
at any computer store. FSS's Casper XP is less well known,
but it does the job well, it's simple to use, and it was written
expressly for the Win2k/NT/XP family of OSes. Here's the
Casper XP web page:
http://www.fssdev.com/products/casperxp/ .

*TimDaniels*
 
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R

Ron Martell

Joan said:
Hi,
I'm going to need a larger master drive, so I'm planning on cloning
using Acronis 9. My question is this, can I remove my #2 HDD which is
"D", put in the new HDD on that secondary, do the cloning, remove the
old "C" Drive and replace it with the new larger cloned drive, put the
"D" drive back into that slot, and expect all this to go smoothly? The
clone software will expand the old partition to the new size, what
worries me is that my existing C drive is Fat32 and the new drive will
no doubt have to be formated NTFS.

Thanks,
Joan

If you do the drive clone method then the new drive will be FAT32,
which is not a problem in itself. However if you want to
subsequently convert this to NTFS then you need to be aware of the
possible partition alignmnet problem which can result in a very
inefficient 512 byte NTFS cluster size if the drive is converted
without first fixing the alignment.

See the article by the late Alex Nichol MVP at
http://www.aumha.org/win5/a/ntfscvt.htm for a detailed discussion of
this matter.

BootIt Next Generation from http://www.bootitng.com has a function
that will fix the partition alignment prior to conversion. The 30 day
trial download is fully functional.

Good luck

Ron Martell Duncan B.C. Canada
--
Microsoft MVP (1997 - 2006)
On-Line Help Computer Service
http://onlinehelp.bc.ca
Syberfix Remote Computer Repair

"Anyone who thinks that they are too small to make a difference
has never been in bed with a mosquito."
 
R

Rock

Timothy Daniels said:
I understand. And... one reason why people come to
firmly believe that the Master HD on IDE ch. 0 will
always be the "boot drive", or that it must always
contain the OS, or that the boot files must always be
in the same partition with the OS, etc., is because of
such abbreviated replies. Most newbies don't realize
that they're getting the simplest scenario and so interpret
the reply as the only scenario.

This is not to denigrate your response, as this forum's
flood of postings doesn't allow for a treatise reply to
each question. I do feel, though, that occasionally a
comment such as "this is the simplest way to get what
you want done, but not the only way" would help a lot
in the long run.

*TimDaniels*


Fair enough.
 
J

Joan

XP does have a 32 GB FAT32 limitation in the sense that the operating system
will not allow a user to create a FAT32 formatted partition that is greater
than 32 GB. (I assume that's what you're referring to when you mention a "30
GB limit"). That limitation is of no consequence in your situation.

When you clone the contents of your source HDD to your new larger-capacity
HDD the entire contents of that source HDD will then reside on the new HDD -
in effect, a copy of the "old" HDD, but now you'll have additional disk
capacity. The file system will be the file system of the source HDD, in this
case FAT32. No FAT32 partitioning/formatting limitation is involved here.

You'll then convert the file system to NTFS as you plan. I really don't see
any need for an additional purchase of the Casper disk imaging program in
this situation since you already have the Acronis program and that should be
sufficient.
Anna

Are you also saying I could just leave the larger drive Fat32 without
having to convert it? I think I'm misunderstanding the 32 GB partition
limit then. I thought XP would be unable to use the extra space over
32GB with Fat32 without creating more logical drives. A tad confused
with this aspect of the clone process, but thanks again for your help.
 
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J

Joan

On Mon, 08 Jan 2007 15:12:01 -0800, Ron Martell

Ok, thanks for the info, this is going to be a nice learning
experience. I've restored a few systems back to their original drive
with the restore image process, but have never done a clone to a new
disk. Do you know if doing this will trigger the WPA process?
 

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