Chicken or Egg Question

[null]

In Message-ID:<nvinb.45025$HS4.191765@attbi_s01> posted on Tue, 28 Oct


I've helped a couple friends put it on their machines, and I have to say
it goes on easier than 98se or 95b. Isn't it the last of the 9x series?

Yes. Mine is August of 2000.

In fact I'm preparing to do an install of 98se this next weekend, and
might go with ME instead.

Either one is fine IMO but I think you're better off with ME since
it's "smarter" in terms of hardware accomodations.

Is the restore feature optional, or does it
have to be installed whether you plan to use it or not?

It gets installed but you can disable it easily. I do since I use a
cloned h.d. on a removable tray instead.

Also, how well
does IERadicate work with it?

Perfectly, of course


Art
http://www.epix.net/~artnpeg

 

[Bart Bailey]

Either one is fine IMO but I think you're better off with ME since
it's "smarter" in terms of hardware accomodations.

That's what I remember about installation, it didn't require as many
separate driver installs, with the obligatory reboot after each.

It gets installed but you can disable it easily. I do since I use a
cloned h.d. on a removable tray instead.

Can it be totally deleted without any conflict?
If so, then ME would be a desirable upgrade to 98se.

Perfectly, of course

That's probably the most important part ;-)

Thanks

 

[null]

Can it be totally deleted without any conflict?
If so, then ME would be a desirable upgrade to 98se.

My gawd! The impenatrable Bartman is concerned that a hack will
re-enable the evil Restore??

Never bothered to surgically destroy it. Never gave it a thought. Why
do you?


Art
http://www.epix.net/~artnpeg

 

[Bart Bailey]

My gawd! The impenatrable Bartman is concerned that a hack will
re-enable the evil Restore??

Not in the least,
in fact it's going on the machine on my dialup account first,
and I can simply unplug the RJ-11.

Never bothered to surgically destroy it. Never gave it a thought. Why
do you?

I seem to remember it consumed some twenty or so megs on my friends
machine and I was wondering if all that HAD to be onboard.

 

[optikl]

In Message-ID:<nvinb.45025$HS4.191765@attbi_s01> posted on Tue, 28 Oct


I've helped a couple friends put it on their machines, and I have to say
it goes on easier than 98se or 95b. Isn't it the last of the 9x series?
In fact I'm preparing to do an install of 98se this next weekend, and
might go with ME instead. Is the restore feature optional, or does it
have to be installed whether you plan to use it or not? Also, how well
does IERadicate work with it?

Bart, Take it from someone who has used both. Go with Win98SE. ME is not as
stable. The only advantage with ME is its ability to handle USB devices
better than 98. Restore is a fine concept, but you can add GoBack to Win98SE
and have a better system.

 

[Heather]

Bart, Take it from someone who has used both. Go with Win98SE. ME is not as
stable. The only advantage with ME is its ability to handle USB devices
better than 98. Restore is a fine concept, but you can add GoBack to Win98SE
and have a better system.

I have used WinME for 2.5 years and would have to disagree with the
above.......it is as stable as you allow it to be. System Restore is
worth its weight in gold!!

Staying with Win98SE is not that wise, as it will not be supported for
long, if it still is. It was a good O/S........but time and Bill Gates
march on. I have XP here to put on, but haven't gotten around to it
because I simply have no problems of a major type with WinME. Plus I
haven't figured out partitioning and dual booting yet.....but will be
doing it soon.

Hey.....Art likes WinME. That is a stamp of approval, grin. Now if we
could just convince him that IE is an OK thing.....))

Cheers.....Heather

 

[Bart Bailey]

In
Message-ID:<[email protected]>

Hey.....Art likes WinME. That is a stamp of approval, grin. Now if we
could just convince him that IE is an OK thing.....))

IE isn't something that malware savvy folk are likely to endorse. <g>

 

[null]

Not in the least,
in fact it's going on the machine on my dialup account first,
and I can simply unplug the RJ-11.


I seem to remember it consumed some twenty or so megs on my friends
machine and I was wondering if all that HAD to be onboard.

As I posted some time ago, if you choose to leave System Restore
permantly disabled (as I do) you can boot up with the Win ME system
diskette and do a

deltree /y c:\_restore

That will delete the stored system images, and it may in some cases
erase mucho megs of useless stuff from the drive. In fact, it may take
considerable time for the deltree operation to complete. There's tons
of hidden files under subdirectories of _restore\ It woud probably
be best to load smartdrv from a config.sys on your boot diskette to
speed up this deltree operation. You'd be amazed at the time it takes
otherwise (in some cases).

My Hp Pavilion came with a 40 + gig h.d. of which I only use 2 to 3
gig. My cloned h.d. is 6 gig. So I'm not concerned with wasting a mere
20 meg or whatever of h.d. space. In fact, I had no good reason (just
curiosity) to do the above deltree thing on the _restore directory
structure. I just mention it since you seem interested. And I can say
there are no ill effects from doing this.

I think the OS flushes the bulk of stuff under the _restore directory
structure whenever you disable it and reboot anyway. Not sure just how
much of it all gets deleted when doing it this "normal" way.

Insofar as permantly erasing the System Restore functionality itself
from the h.d. I haven't bothered to find out exactly what all can
safely be deleted. No reason to. Unless I expected some sort of speed
or performance advantage I wouldn't spend any time fooling with it.


Art
http://www.epix.net/~artnpeg

 

[null]

Bart, Take it from someone who has used both. Go with Win98SE. ME is not as
stable.

I haven't experienced any problems I would attribute to instability
with Win ME in the several months I've been using it. I assume you
mean you experienced crashes? BSODs? None here though I have tried an
app or two that was unstable or buggy.

I have experienced a couple of unexplained problems that I've had to
work around. But I wouldn't call the OS unstable by any means. And I
was able to work around the problems. In both cases, alternate
applications fixed the problems I had.

The only advantage with ME is its ability to handle USB devices
better than 98. Restore is a fine concept, but you can add GoBack to Win98SE
and have a better system.

System Restore is another flawed M$ concept. We see users posting here
quite often who have malware backed up in their Restore. The trick
with any kind of system backup is to make sure you're not backing up
malware. That requires having a clue which most users don't have.

A much better approach for those who have a clue is to use a cloned or
imaged hard drive on a removeable tray. It should not be accessable
during normal use of the PC.


Art
http://www.epix.net/~artnpeg

 

[optikl]

I have used WinME for 2.5 years and would have to disagree with the
above.......it is as stable as you allow it to be. System Restore is
worth its weight in gold!!

Staying with Win98SE is not that wise, as it will not be supported for
long, if it still is. It was a good O/S........but time and Bill Gates
march on. I have XP here to put on, but haven't gotten around to it
because I simply have no problems of a major type with WinME. Plus I
haven't figured out partitioning and dual booting yet.....but will be
doing it soon.

Hey.....Art likes WinME. That is a stamp of approval, grin. Now if we
could just convince him that IE is an OK thing.....))

Cheers.....Heather

I'll clarify by stating that the "advice" I gave to Bart is based solely on
my experience with it, on 2 machines. Both were clean installs.
I don't have anything against system restore; in fact that's one aspect of
ME that I appreciate.

I found ME to be very unstable on my machines, which required me to
reinstall Windows more often than anyone would reasonably think necessary.

That fact that I see this differently than others in this NG is a sign that
we have a diversity of experiences and opinions.

I sure someone, somewhere, has data on 98 vs ME from a stability
perspective. But since I'm no longer a stake-holder, I'll pass on looking
for it.

BTW, XP, again from my experience with it on 2 of the machines I own, is an
improvement.

 

[optikl]

I haven't experienced any problems I would attribute to instability
with Win ME in the several months I've been using it. I assume you
mean you experienced crashes? BSODs? None here though I have tried an
app or two that was unstable or buggy.

Yeah. Lots of BSOD's and lots of data corruption issues.

I have experienced a couple of unexplained problems that I've had to
work around. But I wouldn't call the OS unstable by any means. And I
was able to work around the problems. In both cases, alternate
applications fixed the problems I had.

I was able to work around my problems, too. My feeling though is: "why
should I need to ?"

System Restore is another flawed M$ concept. We see users posting here
quite often who have malware backed up in their Restore. The trick
with any kind of system backup is to make sure you're not backing up
malware. That requires having a clue which most users don't have.

That fact that it's a malware trap has more to do with the user, no? Unless
I'm mistaken, the idea is to keep malware from getting on your system in the
first place. FWIW, I never had a malware issue, so system restore was never
a liability.

A much better approach for those who have a clue is to use a cloned or
imaged hard drive on a removeable tray. It should not be accessable
during normal use of the PC.

I'm 100% with you on that. All of my systems are Imaged to an external drive
that is for storage only.

 

[null]

On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 12:17:07 GMT, "optikl"

I found ME to be very unstable on my machines, which required me to
reinstall Windows more often than anyone would reasonably think necessary.

BTW, I've haven't ever had to restore from my cloned backup drive but
if I ever do, I won't have all the headaches resulting from a
reinstall of Windows. I put a lot of work into hardening and modifying
the OS, and while I kept a set of notes it's not something I ever want
to have to do over again. In fact, it was due to this consideration
that I started using the cloned h.d. approach way back when on Win 98
original. I'd say it's the _main_ reason to use a cloned h.d. The
other benefits are secondary to this.


Art
http://www.epix.net/~artnpeg

 

[optikl]

On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 12:17:07 GMT, "optikl"

necessary.

BTW, I've haven't ever had to restore from my cloned backup drive but
if I ever do, I won't have all the headaches resulting from a
reinstall of Windows. I put a lot of work into hardening and modifying
the OS, and while I kept a set of notes it's not something I ever want
to have to do over again. In fact, it was due to this consideration
that I started using the cloned h.d. approach way back when on Win 98
original. I'd say it's the _main_ reason to use a cloned h.d. The
other benefits are secondary to this.

That's a really good point. My wife questioned the need to Image my systems,
when I could just as easily back up important data and settings and
reinstall from scratch, if a h.d failed, for example. What you just
described above is the reason I gave her. I've recommended Imaging to
others, contingent upon them being satisfied that their systems aren't in
need of a clean reinstall to begin with. Of course, once you got it right,
Image it!

 

[null]

On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 12:24:46 GMT, "optikl"

I was able to work around my problems, too. My feeling though is: "why
should I need to ?"

One problem was with my ISP's DSL software. It worked but there were
inexplicable random delays and stallouts of up to a minute before I
would actually get connectivity when simply changing internet apps
(sometimes) or at random while browsing. I researched and found a web
site where a guy had run into the same problem. He fixed it by using a
program called RASPPOE which, of all things, uses DUN. It worked fine
for me as well.

Now, my nextdoor neighbor uses Win ME and the same ISP and the ISP
provided DSL software that didn't work well for me. It works ok for
him. So go figure. We both have dynamic IP and the same level of
service as well.

I was blaming Win ME until I talked to my neighbor. Now I have no idea
what to blame.

I'll place bets that I can find Win ME users using Pegasus email who
don't have the problem I ran into with Pegasus after starting to use
Win ME.

So I'm in no hurry to blame the OS for the mysterious shit that
happens sometimes with apps


Art
http://www.epix.net/~artnpeg