Case, Fan and PSU question.

[MS]

Hi,

I'm a newbie to homebuilding and have a case, PSU and fan question.

The Lian-Li PC-6077 Aluminium Case (No PSU) seems like a reasonably
priced, good quality case. It has 3 x 8 cm dual ball bearing fans built
in. It does not come with a PSU. I have 2 questions:

1. My supplier has about 30 different PSUs, ranging in cost between about
£20 and £120 (US$33 -> US$185 approx.), one of the cheapest is the
Chieftec 360W ATX Single Fan PSU (HPC-360-202) OEM "The Chieftec 360W ATX
PSU provides today's power hungry systems with a low noise reasonably
priced solution". Would this be adequate? Am I really going to notice the
difference if I spend twice as much money and get a PSU with multiple fan
speed settings, auto-fan-speed, etc.?

2. The Lian-Li PC-6077 case comes with 3 x 8 cm dual ball bearing fans.
Will these alone serve my case cooling requirements? Need I get a graphics
card fan or a memory fan as well? (If I do any overclocking it will me
moderate).

Thanks and regards,

MS

 

[Ally]

I've just built a DAW, and I'm very pleased with the case I bought.
Its an Antec SolutionSlk3700AMB. Comes with a 350watt Antec dual fan,
quiet PSU and an auxiliary case fan. The case is nice and heavy, has
rubber drive mounts and is plenty big enough (for me anyway). They
cost around £40+VAT. That's excellent value, because the PSU alone is
worth almost that amount. Also, it has controlled fan speeds. And I
can confirm that the machine is quest. my old PC sounds like the
Niagara Falls in comparison.

As for you graphics card: They come supplied with their own fans don't
they?

Ally

 

[wooducoodu]

dont skimp on the psu, you'll be sorry. if the seasonic super silencer rev3
is one of your choices grab that one. its one of the better quality brands
and currently one of the most efficient psus available.

 

[Dave C.]

dont skimp on the psu, you'll be sorry. if the seasonic super silencer rev3
is one of your choices grab that one. its one of the better quality brands
and currently one of the most efficient psus available.

Agreed. Also look for FORTRON brand, either one about 400W or so. Your
cooling should be adequate. -Dave

 

[larrymoencurly]

1. My supplier has about 30 different PSUs, ranging in cost
between about £20 and £120 (US$33 -> US$185 approx.), one
of the cheapest is the Chieftec 360W ATX Single Fan PSU
(HPC-360-202) OEM
Am I really going to notice the difference if I spend twice as
much money and get a PSU with multiple fan speed settings,
auto-fan-speed, etc.?

What brands of PSUs are they? Maybe somebody here can tell you which
ones are real bargains, cheap junk, or overpriced junk.

The "HPC" in the model number of the Chieftec indicates that it's made
by Sirtec, which produces several brands, including Thermatake,
HighPower, and maybe Enlight and Enhance. While Sirtec is considered
one of the better PSUs manufacturers, it's not quite the very best,
but I wouldn't mind putting one in my system, and this review:

www.tomshardware.com/howto/20030609/index.html

found that a 420W Chieftec performed well. BTW, this is one of the
few websites that does credible PSU testing, the other being
www.silentpcreview.com

Don't buy Q-tec, Deer (Codegen, Hercules, Logic, L&C, Allied, Duro,
Mercury, Powerstar, Foxconn, Foxlink, Eagle, Hyena, Mustang),
RealPower, and be careful about Turbolink because most are RealPower
or Deer, not Channel Well Technology, which supplies Antec. Even some
Channel Wells are junk, like those with model numbers that don't have
an "A" (just like Antec TruePowers - top notch) or "B" (Antec
SmartPowers, Solution Series) after the numbers or that have "ATX" or
"ISO" there.

Some of the best PSU makers are Fortron-Source, whose brands include
Fortron, Sparkle, Powerman, PowerQ, Powertech (be sure it's not
actually Powertek -- it's misspelled sometimes), Hi-Q, Trend, Aopen,
and Casedge(at least some), Zippy-Emacs, Win-tact (not to be confused
with Wintech), PC Power & Cooling (they're based on Fortron-Source,
Zippy-Emacs, or Win-tact designs), Lite-On, Delta, NMB-Mineba, Newton,
and Astec. www.ul.com and www.csa.ca can help you find the actual
manufacturers from the CSA and UL (RU) registration numbers.

Weight is a good rough guide to quality, but you have to concentrate
on what's on the circuit board and exclude the case (aluminum is
light), cables, and fans. If the circuit board has a big transformer
(usually covered with yellow, blue, or red plastic tape) between the
two big heatsinks and the board is crowded, then it's probably a good
PSU.

 

[MS]

Many thanks everybody for your helpful replies.

larrymoencurly - what an informative answer, wow, I had no idea there was
this much to know! Your link to tomshardware.com was especially helpful as
my supplier has several of the recommended PSUs. I've decided on this:

Fortron FSP400-60PFN 400W PSU inc. Noise Killer OEM £57.74 inc.VAT

Thanks.

 

[on the other hand...]

Many thanks everybody for your helpful replies.

larrymoencurly - what an informative answer, wow, I had no idea there was
this much to know! Your link to tomshardware.com was especially helpful as
my supplier has several of the recommended PSUs. I've decided on this:

Fortron FSP400-60PFN 400W PSU inc. Noise Killer OEM £57.74 inc.VAT

Thanks.

A very good choice, but I'd vote for the Antec 3700AMB case with power
supply. I just finished replacing an old old case with one and it's
great value for the money, esp when you can get the occasional deal on
free shipping at newegg. I was skeptical about the rail system for
the 5"bays, but by the time I was finished, I was a believer.

 

[Toshi1873]

A very good choice, but I'd vote for the Antec 3700AMB case with power
supply. I just finished replacing an old old case with one and it's
great value for the money, esp when you can get the occasional deal on
free shipping at newegg. I was skeptical about the rail system for
the 5"bays, but by the time I was finished, I was a believer.

Rails are always a blessing combined with a curse.
Makes it easy to slide devices in and out, but if you
lose a rail or two you often are now stuck. (The Antec
p160 case uses rails, but since I own 3 cases I have
plenty of spares.)

The SLK3700AMB case looks interesting, I'm assuming that
the front 120mm fan slot blows directly over the
internal 3.5" drive bays? (I'm used to the p160/Sonata
cases and their layout.)

 

[on the other hand...]

Rails are always a blessing combined with a curse.
Makes it easy to slide devices in and out, but if you
lose a rail or two you often are now stuck. (The Antec
p160 case uses rails, but since I own 3 cases I have
plenty of spares.)

The SLK3700AMB case looks interesting, I'm assuming that
the front 120mm fan slot blows directly over the
internal 3.5" drive bays? (I'm used to the p160/Sonata
cases and their layout.)

Very similar case design to the SLK3700BQE, except the 3.5 hard drive
cage is not rotated 90 degrees from the 5" bays. The front fan blows
unhindered over the drives, not through the walls of the drive cage.
You can mount one more 3.5 drive, but it's outside the fan's air flow.
You also have room for ide to sata converters at the end of the
drives.

The SLK3700AMB has been updated and now has the same large front and
rear 120mm grill patterns as the newer antec cases. Originally they
had an array of small holes that choked off the airflow.

The 3700AMB has the two fan power supply design. It's still quiet
(variable speed) and you have some single fault fan protection. Power
supply ratings are the same as the BQE.

Oh, and you can buy spare drive rails from the usual case mod stores
on the internet.

http://www.frozencpu.com/cgi-bin/frozencpu/cpa-58.html

 

[Toshi1873]

Very similar case design to the SLK3700BQE, except the 3.5 hard drive
cage is not rotated 90 degrees from the 5" bays. The front fan blows
unhindered over the drives, not through the walls of the drive cage.
You can mount one more 3.5 drive, but it's outside the fan's air flow.
You also have room for ide to sata converters at the end of the
drives.

Yes, I had problems when I added an IDE drive and used a
PATA-SATA converter in the p160 case. Since the drives
are turned sideways, the combined additional length of
the converter plus the SATA cable was too wide.
Solution was to get a 90-degree SATA cable which worked
perfectly (and just fit).

And on the p160, the top internal drive bay is outside
of the airflow of the 120mm front fan as well. So the
3700 can probably hold one more hot drive down below (if
I interpreted the picture correctly).

The SLK3700AMB has been updated and now has the same large front and
rear 120mm grill patterns as the newer antec cases. Originally they
had an array of small holes that choked off the airflow.

I do like the internal design of the SLK3700AMB. I'll
have to look closer at it to see if it's as friendly as
the p160 (with the easy-out drive trays).

Another nice feature with the p160 is the built-in
temperature display. Geeky, but a good thing to have in
a server case.

 

[on the other hand..]

I do like the internal design of the SLK3700AMB. I'll
have to look closer at it to see if it's as friendly as
the p160 (with the easy-out drive trays).

The 3.5 external (floppy) tray and the 3.5 internal (hard disks) tray
both have spring loaded catches and slide out of the case.

 

[Toshi1873]

One more question (and I'm not finding the answer on
Antec's site):

The p160 case has a design flaw that it will absolutely,
positively, *not* work with any motherboard that is
larger then 12" x 9.6" (some "ATX" motherboards are
9.8" or 10.25").

Does the 3700 case series work with larger ATX
motherboards?

(Trying to find an ATX, dual-CPU motherboard is a real
challenge. A lot are extended ATX, and a bunch of
others are 12" x 9.8" or 12" x 10.25", but still called
ATX. So far I've only found (2) from Tyan that fit and
those are both Xeon-based.)

 

[who me]

One more question (and I'm not finding the answer on
Antec's site):

The p160 case has a design flaw that it will absolutely,
positively, *not* work with any motherboard that is
larger then 12" x 9.6" (some "ATX" motherboards are
9.8" or 10.25").

Does the 3700 case series work with larger ATX
motherboards?

(Trying to find an ATX, dual-CPU motherboard is a real
challenge. A lot are extended ATX, and a bunch of
others are 12" x 9.8" or 12" x 10.25", but still called
ATX. So far I've only found (2) from Tyan that fit and
those are both Xeon-based.)

I'd suspect not. It's described as standard ATX at newegg.com

You might take a look at the pictures there and compare the size of
the power supply to the motherboard area.

Codegen makes a good mini server case for $62, but toss the old PIII
era power supply. Check out the dimensions, it's really LONG.


http://www.newegg.com/oldversion/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=11-182-545&depa=0

 

[Allen Weiner]

What brands of PSUs are they? Maybe somebody here can tell you which
ones are real bargains, cheap junk, or overpriced junk.

The "HPC" in the model number of the Chieftec indicates that it's made
by Sirtec, which produces several brands, including Thermatake,
HighPower, and maybe Enlight and Enhance. While Sirtec is considered
one of the better PSUs manufacturers, it's not quite the very best,
but I wouldn't mind putting one in my system, and this review:

www.tomshardware.com/howto/20030609/index.html

found that a 420W Chieftec performed well. BTW, this is one of the
few websites that does credible PSU testing, the other being
www.silentpcreview.com

Don't buy Q-tec, Deer (Codegen, Hercules, Logic, L&C, Allied, Duro,
Mercury, Powerstar, Foxconn, Foxlink, Eagle, Hyena, Mustang),
RealPower, and be careful about Turbolink because most are RealPower
or Deer, not Channel Well Technology, which supplies Antec. Even some
Channel Wells are junk, like those with model numbers that don't have
an "A" (just like Antec TruePowers - top notch) or "B" (Antec
SmartPowers, Solution Series) after the numbers or that have "ATX" or
"ISO" there.

Some of the best PSU makers are Fortron-Source, whose brands include
Fortron, Sparkle, Powerman, PowerQ, Powertech (be sure it's not
actually Powertek -- it's misspelled sometimes), Hi-Q, Trend, Aopen,
and Casedge(at least some), Zippy-Emacs, Win-tact (not to be confused
with Wintech), PC Power & Cooling (they're based on Fortron-Source,
Zippy-Emacs, or Win-tact designs), Lite-On, Delta, NMB-Mineba, Newton,
and Astec. www.ul.com and www.csa.ca can help you find the actual
manufacturers from the CSA and UL (RU) registration numbers.

Weight is a good rough guide to quality, but you have to concentrate
on what's on the circuit board and exclude the case (aluminum is
light), cables, and fans. If the circuit board has a big transformer
(usually covered with yellow, blue, or red plastic tape) between the
two big heatsinks and the board is crowded, then it's probably a good
PSU.

When trying to choose a PSU, I would like to know whether it conforms
to the Intel ATX12V Power Supply Design Guidelines. (Document
available at http:www.formfactors.org).

Has anyone seen this mentioned in PSU specifications or in PSU
reviews? For example, I don't see it mentioned on the PC Power and
Cooling web site. I haven't seen it mentioned in PSU reviews from
Tom's Hardware or Anandtech.

Some PSU's are described as ATX12V supplies, but my understanding is
that this refers to the presence of a particular connector. An ATX12V
PSU does not necessarily conform to the ATX12V Power Supply Design
Guidelines.

 

[larrymoencurly]

When trying to choose a PSU, I would like to know whether it
conforms to the Intel ATX12V Power Supply Design Guidelines.
(Document available at http:www.formfactors.org).

Has anyone seen this mentioned in PSU specifications or in
PSU reviews? For example, I don't see it mentioned on the
PC Power and Cooling web site. I haven't seen it mentioned
in PSU reviews from Tom's Hardware or Anandtech.

PC Power & Cooling claims that their PSUs meet Intel standards, and
they mentioned this in a comparison ("The Inside Story") of their 510W
verses an unnamed 550W (Enermax).

But Intel approval may not be a sign of quality because I have some
some low quality PSUs that were Intel approved -- Powmax and MaxPower.

Powmax/Leadman/Raidmax/Robanton PSUs are known for being weak, and
tests by www.tomshardware.com and www.anandtech.com (year 2000 -- the
only legitimate PSU test ever done by Anandtech) showed this. I don't
know if Powmax is currently Intel approved because the brand has been
cheapened in the past few years and is no longer identical to its
siblings, Leadman and Raidmax.

MaxPower/Key Mouse/EverPower/Soyo PSUs look cheap inside, and my 300W
didn't even have an EMI line filter (blocked AM radio completely),
contrary to what the website said, but it was able to put out its
rated power and combined power for at least ten minutes (my load
resistance gets too hot after that), although I did the test after
installing a missing power diode in parallel with an existing one.

 

[Allen Weiner]

(e-mail address removed) (Allen Weiner) wrote in message

PC Power & Cooling claims that their PSUs meet Intel standards, and
they mentioned this in a comparison ("The Inside Story") of their 510W
verses an unnamed 550W (Enermax).

But Intel approval may not be a sign of quality because I have some
some low quality PSUs that were Intel approved -- Powmax and MaxPower.

Powmax/Leadman/Raidmax/Robanton PSUs are known for being weak, and
tests by www.tomshardware.com and www.anandtech.com (year 2000 -- the
only legitimate PSU test ever done by Anandtech) showed this. I don't
know if Powmax is currently Intel approved because the brand has been
cheapened in the past few years and is no longer identical to its
siblings, Leadman and Raidmax.

MaxPower/Key Mouse/EverPower/Soyo PSUs look cheap inside, and my 300W
didn't even have an EMI line filter (blocked AM radio completely),
contrary to what the website said, but it was able to put out its
rated power and combined power for at least ten minutes (my load
resistance gets too hot after that), although I did the test after
installing a missing power diode in parallel with an existing one.

Thanks for your reply, and for your other informative posts about PSUs in
this and other newsgroups (I retrieved them from the Google Groups archive.)

I have a theory (may or may not be correct) that there is a slight
difference between being "Intel approved" and complying to the Intel ATX12V
Power Supply Design Guidelines.

One of Intel's web pages is a "reseller center". It contains a list of
approved PSU's. They describe the tests which must be passed to qualify for
the list. The tests are a subset of the ATX12V PSDG specification.

I saw on the PC Power and Cooling web site, the statement that you refer to.
They talked about being first on the list of Intel approved PSUs. There was
a PCP&C PSU on the Intel list that I saw. That list was ordered
alphabetically and PCP&C was not first. Given all the hype about PCP&C, I
would expect that they would state that they comply to the Intel ATX12V
PSDG. (Again, my feeling is that this is more stringent than being "Intel
approved".)

Incidentally, AMD also used to provide a list of recommended PSUs. When I
recently checked their site, they now state that due to the "infrastructure
of the PSU industry" they no longer feel it is necessary for them to test
PSUs.

Based on the recommendation in your post, I checked the silentpcreview site
for PSU reviews. There I noticed that several of the manufacturers (Zalman,
Seasonic) claim that they comply to the Intel ATX12V PSDG.

 

[larrymoencurly]

MaxPower.

I have a theory (may or may not be correct) that there is a
slight difference between being "Intel approved" and complying
to the Intel ATX12V Power Supply Design Guidelines.

My Powmax and MaxPower were claimed to be Intel approved, not just
compliant with Intel's ATX12V standards, and the Powmax website even
had the test results listed for one of their models.

So many low-quality PSUs are Intel and AMD approved that the
certifications seem virtually worthless, so I don't understand why AMD
feels that testing is no longer needed because the percentage of
cheaply-made PSUs seems to be higher than ever. I've also found that
the parts inside ancient 200-250W PSUs are often rated for as much
capacity as those in newer 300-400W PSU are.

 

[sleazoidakis]

So many low-quality PSUs are Intel and AMD approved that the
certifications seem virtually worthless, so I don't understand why AMD
feels that testing is no longer needed because the percentage of
cheaply-made PSUs seems to be higher than ever. I've also found that
the parts inside ancient 200-250W PSUs are often rated for as much
capacity as those in newer 300-400W PSU are.

Bottom line, once a sleazoid company gets "APPROVAL" they can start
making the PSU cheaper. This creates the proverbial worst of all
possible worlds.