Can you recommend a tape drive for our charity?

G

Graham Cross

I work for a medium sized charity.
We prefer to do a full back up on our windows 2000 server and are
using Veritas backup.

We now need to invest in a larger capacity tape drive.
35MB - 50MB uncompressed.

Would anyone like to make a recommendation?

Thank you
 
J

J. Clarke

Graham said:
I work for a medium sized charity.
We prefer to do a full back up on our windows 2000 server and are
using Veritas backup.

We now need to invest in a larger capacity tape drive.
35MB - 50MB uncompressed.

Would anyone like to make a recommendation?

Assuming you meant GB and not MB, and assuming you want to use tape rather
than using 40 GB drives in removable trays as disposable media (not
necessarily a bad option), find a DLT-IV drive on ebay. Two things about
them--one, use good brand tapes and buy new--the major failing of DLT
drives is that if the leader fails to engage the tape you have to open the
drive to fish it out, and this seems to happen more on second-hand
tapes--two, learn how to fish the leader out--it's not hard but it's scary
as Hell the first time you open up a multi-thousand dollar drive to do it.
Not that DLT-IV drives are that expensive anymore.
 
D

dg

Yeah I can make a recommendation, but it isn't a tape drive. I recommend
using hard drives for backup media. If you are willing to consider this,
you can ask questions here about it, or search groups.google.com for already
discussed options.

--Dan
 
O

Odie Ferrous

dg said:
Yeah I can make a recommendation, but it isn't a tape drive. I recommend
using hard drives for backup media. If you are willing to consider this,
you can ask questions here about it, or search groups.google.com for already
discussed options.

Great recommendation - absolutely superb for my business.

Pity everyone didn't go down that route - I'd be even more inundated
with work.


Odie
 
J

J. Clarke

Odie said:
Great recommendation - absolutely superb for my business.

Pity everyone didn't go down that route - I'd be even more inundated
with work.

Actually, you wouldn't. When one of the disks in your backup set fails, you
toss it just like you would a bad tape. Your business comes from people
who don't back up at all or don't run a good backup strategy.

I priced out a variety of backup options for a small system the other
day--the full 5-day rotation backup set with disks costs less than a single
good-quality tape drive. If the system grows beyond a certain size then
the tape becomes attractive, but this particular system will probably not
grow much beyond its current size in the next five years.
 
O

Odie Ferrous

J. Clarke said:
Actually, you wouldn't. When one of the disks in your backup set fails, you
toss it just like you would a bad tape. Your business comes from people
who don't back up at all or don't run a good backup strategy.

I priced out a variety of backup options for a small system the other
day--the full 5-day rotation backup set with disks costs less than a single
good-quality tape drive. If the system grows beyond a certain size then
the tape becomes attractive, but this particular system will probably not
grow much beyond its current size in the next five years.

I fully acknowledge that any form of backup is better than none.

However, I get a lot of drives in that contain backed up data that was
then deleted from the original drive. Slightly different scenario,
admittedly, but it does happen. Especially when the backup device is
housed in an external USB caddy. Plenty of those.


Odie
 
J

J. Clarke

Odie said:
I fully acknowledge that any form of backup is better than none.

However, I get a lot of drives in that contain backed up data that was
then deleted from the original drive. Slightly different scenario,
admittedly, but it does happen. Especially when the backup device is
housed in an external USB caddy. Plenty of those.

I presume that they were using a single backup drive instead of a set of
them used in rotation?

The mistake that gets made is using a disk as a substitute for a tape
_drive_. That's not the way to do it, the way to do it is to use it as a
substitute for a tape _cartridge_. And treat it as such--rotate through
five (or ten, or however long a rotation makes you feel safe) of them and
if one starts reporting errors don't diddle with it, toss it and replace
it. You may lose a day that way if your main drive and the previous day's
backup both fail at the same time, but you run that risk with tape as well.

The cost of high capacity disks is such that this is actually an attractive
proposition in many cases.
 
O

Odie Ferrous

J. Clarke said:
I presume that they were using a single backup drive instead of a set of
them used in rotation?

Of course they weren't! Even "educated" people rarely do this. "It
only happens to other people."

The mistake that gets made is using a disk as a substitute for a tape
_drive_. That's not the way to do it, the way to do it is to use it as a
substitute for a tape _cartridge_. And treat it as such--rotate through
five (or ten, or however long a rotation makes you feel safe) of them and
if one starts reporting errors don't diddle with it, toss it and replace
it. You may lose a day that way if your main drive and the previous day's
backup both fail at the same time, but you run that risk with tape as well.

I always used to use one tape a day, and a new tape at the week's end.
Ditto month end, with two duplicate tapes at year end.

Trouble is, a few years ago, a decent tape streamer with media cost a
lot less than a hard drive. Perhaps one quarter the price of a hard
drive.

These days, a decent unit with media costs about five to ten times more
than the drive being backed up. Overall, this is a factor of 20x to 40x
more expensive than a few years back.

Little wonder things have changed.


Odie
 
A

Arno Wagner

Of course they weren't! Even "educated" people rarely do this. "It
only happens to other people."

Well, I did read up on backup methods before getting my current backup
solution (MOD, 2 disks are still enough for / and /home).

Guess many "educated" people do not understand computing
and (more seriously) do not understand that they do not understand.
Arrogance combined with ignorance, a deadly combination.

IMO these people get what they deserve.

Arno
 
D

dg

Odie Ferrous said:
Great recommendation - absolutely superb for my business.

Pity everyone didn't go down that route - I'd be even more inundated
with work.


Odie
--

RetroData
Data Recovery Experts
www.retrodata.co.uk

I don't understand how you can make blanket statements about hard drives
being a bad decision for backup. Can you give reasons why hard drives would
not be a good choice?

The scheme I use for backup is this:

A small "Shuttle" PC dedicated only for backup (cost, less than $500),
attached to the network and physically located in a convenient area for the
secretary to remove and install backup drives daily. It has a removable IDE
drive tray, any drive put into the tray is shared to a specific domain user.
The daily backup is currently ~17GB and rising. I use several 120GB drives,
currently about $78 each (WD1200JB). The drives are rotated daily and
stored offsite. The actual backup is done by the file server, running
Server 2003, using the windows NTbackup. I tell NTbackup to backup to a
file, which is located on the removable hard drive. Using a batch file, I
am able to keep 4 daily backups on each drive (though not consecutive, as
the drives are rotated). I choose to do a full backup daily, rather than
incremental. My batch file also generates a simple .TXT report on the
secretary's desktop so she can easily see if the backup was successful,
which it almost always is. I choose to verify the backup and I have
restored from the backups with no problems. I should add that restores are
damn fast, I don't have to wait for a tape drive to find the data.

The particular office has the potential to need 50GB or more of daily
backup. This is a large amount of data to backup, a good tape drive and
media for this task is very expensive and I am not nearly as confident in
the tape mechanisms as I am in modern hard drives. If a drive dies, I will
either get a warranty replacement or buy a new one. Tape drive maintenance
is another reason to choose hard drive backup.

I honestly can't see any reason to choose tape over hard drives. If you
know something I don't (related to hard drive backup), please let me know.

THANKS!
--Dan
 
R

Roger Blake

A small "Shuttle" PC dedicated only for backup (cost, less than $500),
attached to the network and physically located in a convenient area for the
secretary to remove and install backup drives daily. It has a removable IDE
drive tray, any drive put into the tray is shared to a specific domain user.

What kind of IDE drive tray are you using? I'm currently using external
USB 2.0 drives for high-capacity backup, but a tray in the server cabinet
would probably be more convenient.

Hard drives for backup are certainly cheaper, faster, more reliable,
and more convenient than tape. Just have to be sure you don't drop the
drive while transporting it, of course. :)
 
D

dg

I use Vantec MRK-102FD drive trays. As seen here:
http://www.vantecusa.com/images/image-mrk102fd.jpg

As to dropping the drives while transporting, I have got that covered, even
if I drop them into a river:
(I have posted these pics a few times to this group)
http://home.pacbell.net/dankgus/BACKUP/EXTERIOR.JPG
http://home.pacbell.net/dankgus/BACKUP/INTERIOR.JPG

These Pelican cases are awesome. The drives are completely surrounded by
foam, and quite a bit of foam! These particular cases are waterproof to
20'!

I have not had great success with USB drive enclosures, they seem to be a
bit flaky, sometimes even requiring a reboot which is not acceptable.
Before you ask, I do not hot swap the IDE drives in the trays. I have the
dedicated backup PC turn itself on just minutes before the backup is to
begin, and when the backup is done I have the server send a shutdown command
to the backup PC. That way when the secretary shows up in the morning she
can swap the drives without powering the backup machine up or down. This
avoids any hot swap issues.

--Dan
 
G

Guest

If a tape drive fails, in most cases this won't affect the media. You
eject the tape and put it into another drive. If a HDD fails, there
are good chances you lost your data forever. A HDD drive and a tape
cassette are not even remotely comparable in terms of reliability.

How old is your oldest backup? A 120GB HDD can hold say 6 x 17GB
backups. A drive per week. 8-10 drives to cover 2 months. Every time
you insert a HDD, you endanger a week of backups. It's quite likely to
have a virus or employee that damaged your files, and this was
unnoticed for say 2.5 months.

With dumb cheap media, like tapes, you can keep years of backup in
different places. Can you afford this with HDDs?
 
J

J. Clarke

The idea is that you figure out your backup strategy first and then you use
the most cost effective backup device. If you need to maintain years of
backup then tape is a better choice, but most businesses do not need to
maintain years of backup. In some cases this will be disk, in some cases
one or another form of tape, and in some cases something else.

If a tape drive fails, in most cases this won't affect the media.

Except when it does. Ever encounter a DDS drive with a scratched head?
You
eject the tape and put it into another drive.

And if you're lucky then you don't wreck that drive with your contaminated
media.
If a HDD fails, there
are good chances you lost your data forever.

If a tape fails, there are good chances you lost your data forever. Media
failure is like that you know. That's why you maintain backups in the
first place. So that when the media fails your data is _not_ lost forever.
A HDD drive and a tape
cassette are not even remotely comparable in terms of reliability.

Well, now, that depends on the HDD drive and the tape cassette, doesn't it?
Personally I'd trust a disk a lot more than I'd trust a travan or DDS tape.
How old is your oldest backup?

Not "how old is your oldest backup". "How old does your oldest backup (not
archive, backup--there is a difference) have to be?"
A 120GB HDD can hold say 6 x 17GB
backups. A drive per week.

A 100 GB tape can hold say 5 x 17GB backups, a tape per week. Which is a
very, very stupid way to do backups. Nobody in his right mind uses the
same media every day for a week. You change every day.
8-10 drives to cover 2 months.

8-10 tapes cover 2 months.
Every time
you insert a HDD, you endanger a week of backups.

If you are that terminally stupid then every time you insert a tape, you
endanger a week of backups. You are criticizing a backup strategy that is
flawed regardless of the type of media used.
It's quite likely to
have a virus or employee that damaged your files, and this was
unnoticed for say 2.5 months.

And if you don't maintain 3 months of backups then you have this problem
with tape or with disk. But most businesses will be in really bad shape if
they lose 3 months of any kind of mission-critical data. And if it's not
mission-critical then who cares if it's lost?
With dumb cheap media, like tapes, you can keep years of backup in
different places. Can you afford this with HDDs?

If tape was cheap you would have a point. As for keeping "years of backup
in different places", what the hell good does a five year old backup of
live data do you?
 
G

Guest

J. Clarke said:
Except when it does. Ever encounter a DDS drive with a scratched head?

No. But I did encounter a lot of dead HDDs.
If a tape fails, there are good chances you lost your data forever. Media
failure is like that you know. That's why you maintain backups in the
first place. So that when the media fails your data is _not_ lost forever.

What I meant to say, if a HDD fails, in most cases you've lost every
single bit. Normally, you can't take out magnetic disks and put them
into another HDD, can you? On the other hand, if there's a CRC error
on a piece of tape, you usually lose a file, not the whole tape.
Well, now, that depends on the HDD drive and the tape cassette, doesn't it?

No, it does not. Have you ever studied engineering somewhere? A tape
casette consists of tape, rollers and a case. A HDD has millions of
components, including silicon gates inside microchips, motors, heads,
positioning mechanism and so on.
A 100 GB tape can hold say 5 x 17GB backups, a tape per week. Which is a
very, very stupid way to do backups. Nobody in his right mind uses the
same media every day for a week. You change every day.

Did I suggest using the same media for a week? I think I did not. So
you imagined something and called that stupid. Very smart of you!
If you are that terminally stupid then every time you insert a tape, you
endanger a week of backups. You are criticizing a backup strategy that is
flawed regardless of the type of media used.

Yes, I do criticize a backup strategy that is flawed regardless of the
type of media used. What's the problem? Unless you are that terminally
stupid to praise such a strategy...
If tape was cheap you would have a point. As for keeping "years of backup
in different places", what the hell good does a five year old backup of
live data do you?

Apparently you are much smarter than Sony, IBM etc that produce tape
drives, let alone those people who buy them. I don't mind backing up
to HDDs. I do personally back up to HDDs, as well as tapes, CD, DVDs
and flash.
 
J

J. Clarke

No. But I did encounter a lot of dead HDDs.

So? A dead disk doesn't damage anything else. A scratched head destroys
every tape you stick in the drive, and if whatever scratched it comes off
on one of them then that tape destroys every drive you put it in.

My point is that tape drive failures can and do affect the media. And then
there are the freaking travans, whose media sometimes is readable in only
the one drive in which it was written.
What I meant to say, if a HDD fails, in most cases you've lost every
single bit. Normally, you can't take out magnetic disks and put them
into another HDD, can you? On the other hand, if there's a CRC error
on a piece of tape, you usually lose a file, not the whole tape.

That may be the case for uncompressed data. If you're using compression
then it's a different story.

If you lose "every single bit" on yesterday's backup, so what? That's why
you do rotation backups.
No, it does not. Have you ever studied engineering somewhere? A tape
casette consists of tape, rollers and a case. A HDD has millions of
components, including silicon gates inside microchips, motors, heads,
positioning mechanism and so on.

Actually I have studied engineering, but I've also actually done it in the
real world, which you clearly haven't if you think that complexity is the
only factor in reliability. Some types of tape cartridge, DLT for example,
are very reliable. Other types (DDS for example) are documented by the
manufacturer to have limited service lives. Most of your "millions of
components" are gates in a chip, and modern silicon is vastly more reliable
than any mechanical device. As for parts count, a modern disk typically
has two moving parts, the head assembly and the platter assembly, and no
contact between the heads and the magnetic media during normal operation,
unlike tape that wears both the heads and the media constantly.

No disk that I know of needs regular maintenance in order to remain usable.
Most types of tape have a required cleaning cycle--if you get sloppy with
it the drive goes and often takes some of your tapes with it.

Reliability is not as simple as you make it out to be.
Did I suggest using the same media for a week? I think I did not. So
you imagined something and called that stupid. Very smart of you!

Then what does "a tape per week" mean? Say what you mean, don't expect
people to read your mind.
Yes, I do criticize a backup strategy that is flawed regardless of the
type of media used. What's the problem? Unless you are that terminally
stupid to praise such a strategy...

The problem is that you are claiming that disks are not satisfactory backup
devices because if that flawed strategy is used an unacceptable amount of
data loss will occur, when in fact if that same strategy is used then the
same occurs with tape.
Apparently you are much smarter than Sony, IBM etc that produce tape
drives, let alone those people who buy them.

I'm certainly smarter than the people who buy Sony tape drives:) ACK.
GAHH. (making signs to ward off evil spirits).

But most of the businesses that buy those drives don't need to "keep years
of backup in different places". They may keep archives of various kinds
(last I heard Lucasfilm used DLT to archive their CGI for example) but
archives are not backups. There is a tendency to confuse the two. Backup
is what you use to minimize data loss in the event of a catastrophic
failure. If you have to go to a years-old backup then you may as well not
have bothered in most cases.

On the other hand you may need to pull something out of a years-old archive.
And if you are archiving anything valuable I would hope you had made at
least two copies on two different types of media and stored them in
different places.
I don't mind backing up
to HDDs. I do personally back up to HDDs, as well as tapes, CD, DVDs
and flash.

Excuse me, but the choice is not "always use disk and never use tape" and it
is not "always use tape and never use disk". The choice is to run a cost
analysis and use whatever type of backup is most cost-effective for the
given circumstances. You seem to be trying to make up circumstances under
which disk is not optimal and then claim on that basis that disk is always
an unacceptable form of backup. If that's not your intent you need to
learn to write more clearly.
 
D

dg

Are you Odie? Its ok if you are not, but I was hoping for him/her to reply.
I was questioning why you/he/she said that his data recovery business would
be doing better if people used HDDs instead of tape.
A HDD drive and a tape cassette are not even remotely comparable in terms
of reliability.

No, they are not. And I would think that the HDD would beat the tape in the
reliability comparison.
How old is your oldest backup? A 120GB HDD can hold say 6 x 17GB
backups. A drive per week. 8-10 drives to cover 2 months. Every time
you insert a HDD, you endanger a week of backups. It's quite likely to
have a virus or employee that damaged your files, and this was
unnoticed for say 2.5 months.

Our oldest backup is probably a few months old. I archive a copy of the
data drive on occasion. That has nothing to do with tape vs. hdd. There
are never any 2 consecutive backups on any HDD, and we have up to date virus
protection that would not miss a virus for 2.5 months. Likely 1 or 2 days
is the most time a virus would be on the network somewhere and not be
caught. Still, that doesn't matter tape or HDD.

With dumb cheap media, like tapes, you can keep years of backup in
different places. Can you afford this with HDDs?

Not excessively, but I have backups as far back as could possibly be needed.
Hard drives are not expensive anymore. How much would 120GB of tape storage
cost you? Like I said, I use Western Digital SE drives with 3 year warranty
for $78.

--Dan
 
J

J. Clarke

dg said:
Are you Odie? Its ok if you are not, but I was hoping for him/her to
reply. I was questioning why you/he/she said that his data recovery
business would be doing better if people used HDDs instead of tape.

of reliability.

No, they are not. And I would think that the HDD would beat the tape in
the reliability comparison.


Our oldest backup is probably a few months old. I archive a copy of the
data drive on occasion. That has nothing to do with tape vs. hdd. There
are never any 2 consecutive backups on any HDD, and we have up to date
virus
protection that would not miss a virus for 2.5 months. Likely 1 or 2 days
is the most time a virus would be on the network somewhere and not be
caught. Still, that doesn't matter tape or HDD.



Not excessively, but I have backups as far back as could possibly be
needed.
Hard drives are not expensive anymore. How much would 120GB of tape
storage
cost you? Like I said, I use Western Digital SE drives with 3 year
warranty for $78.

FWIW, 160GB SDLT and 200GB LTO2 media (note--those are uncompressed
capacities) go for about 40 bucks a shot. The trouble is that you have to
have a multi-thousand-dollar drive to use the media.
 
D

dg

J. Clarke said:
FWIW, 160GB SDLT and 200GB LTO2 media (note--those are uncompressed
capacities) go for about 40 bucks a shot. The trouble is that you have to
have a multi-thousand-dollar drive to use the media.

Thanks for the reference. The media is actually quite affordable,
surprisingly. I admit it has been a while since I priced tape backup. In
the office that uses HDD backup I started pricing GOOD tape drives for their
new server. They started at a couple grand for something I would consider
*good*. I generally refuse to use consumer grade equipment for such an
important task-having said that I understand the HDDs I use are consumer
grade items-but considered disposable if they last the 3 year warranty.

All I can really say is that if your strategy is good, media type is not
much of an issue. If you verify all backups, you are going to have your
data no matter what kind of media you use. For many scenarios, the quality
tape drives just price themselves right out of the picture.

Want to back up your business right? Use a good tape drive, good tapes,
proper maintenance procedures, and a *good STRATEGY*-you will be ok. OR,
use decent removable HDDs, *and a good strategy*, and you are no worse off
than using tape. Many times the latter is much cheaper, and file recovery
is FAST.

--Dan
 

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