Can I Re-use my XP install disk?

  • Thread starter alvinstraight38
  • Start date
A

alvinstraight38

I just built a new PC, and the only thing left is to load the OS. I
currently have a Windows XP full install disk. However, I have used
this install on my old PC.

Is there any way if I can reuse the install cd? I can remove XP from
the old machine, but I don't see how Windows would recognize that the
OS was removed. I just hate to plunk down another $200 bucks.
 
K

Ken Blake, MVP

I just built a new PC, and the only thing left is to load the OS. I
currently have a Windows XP full install disk. However, I have used
this install on my old PC.

Is there any way if I can reuse the install cd? I can remove XP from
the old machine, but I don't see how Windows would recognize that the
OS was removed. I just hate to plunk down another $200 bucks.


Not a problem. If yours is a Full Retail version, simply remove it from the
old computer and reinstall it on the new one. The license permits you to
move it from machine to machine as often as you want.You'll have to
reactivate it on the new computer, but that's not a problem.

However, be sure that you don't have an OEM version, which people sometimes
confuse with the Full Retail version. If yours is an OEM copy, its license
ties it permanently to the first computer it's installed on. It may never be
moved to another computer or sold or given away by itself. For this reason,
I always recommend against buying OEM versions.
 
B

Bruce Chambers

I just built a new PC, and the only thing left is to load the OS. I
currently have a Windows XP full install disk. However, I have used
this install on my old PC.

Is there any way if I can reuse the install cd? I can remove XP from
the old machine, but I don't see how Windows would recognize that the
OS was removed. I just hate to plunk down another $200 bucks.


There is no "de-activation" or "de-registration" process, as such.

Assuming a retail license (OEM licenses are not legitimately
transferable), simply remove WinXP from the computer it is currently on
and then install it on the new computer. If it's been more than 120
days since you last activated that specific Product Key, the you'll most
likely be able to activate via the Internet without problem. If it's
been less, you might have to make a 5 minute phone call.

Here are the facts pertaining to activation:

Piracy Basics - Microsoft Product Activation
http://www.microsoft.com/piracy/basics/activation/

Windows Product Activation (WPA)
http://www.aumha.org/a/wpa.htm


--

Bruce Chambers

Help us help you:



They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. -Benjamin Franklin

Many people would rather die than think; in fact, most do. -Bertrand Russell
 
A

alvinstraight38

Thanks for the info!

Exactly how do I go about removing XP from the old machine? Just
reformat the hard drive?

Also, I have a 320 gig sata hard drive in the new machine. When I boot
up with my old XP install disk, it only shows 136 gigs for
partioning. Is this a limitation with the older versions of XP?
 
K

Ken Blake, MVP

Thanks for the info!


You're welcome. Glad to help.

Exactly how do I go about removing XP from the old machine? Just
reformat the hard drive?

Yes.


Also, I have a 320 gig sata hard drive in the new machine. When I boot
up with my old XP install disk, it only shows 136 gigs for
partioning. Is this a limitation with the older versions of XP?


You need two things to support a drive that large:

1. A motherboard with a BIOS and controller that supports 48-bit LBA (or
alternatively, an add-in controller card that does).

2. At least SP1 of Windows XP.
 
B

Bruce Chambers

Thanks for the info!


You're welcome.

Exactly how do I go about removing XP from the old machine? Just
reformat the hard drive?


That's usually the simplest method, yes.

Also, I have a 320 gig sata hard drive in the new machine. When I boot
up with my old XP install disk, it only shows 136 gigs for
partioning. Is this a limitation with the older versions of XP?

Remember SATA didn't really exist (or at least wasn't commercially
available) when WinXP was initially developed, nor were IDE drives
larger than 137GB common. At the very least, you should use your
original WinXP installation CD and a downloaded copy of Service Pack 2
to create a slip-streamed installation CD. (This will also save time
installing Windows updates after the installation.)

For slip-streaming the service pack and subsequent updates to WinXP:

How to integrate software updates into your Windows installation source
files
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;828930

SlipStreaming WinXP
http://www.webtree.ca/windowsxp/slipstream.htm

Even so, it may be that WinXP SP2 doesn't include drivers to
support your specific SATA controller. If that proves to be the case,
try this:

Very early in the boot process, just after having booted from the
WinXP CD, the screen will display the words to the effect: "Setup is
examining your system." Press <F6> when this happens, and have the
*manufacturer's* WinXP-specific drivers for your SATA controller
available on a floppy disk.


--

Bruce Chambers

Help us help you:



They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. -Benjamin Franklin

Many people would rather die than think; in fact, most do. -Bertrand Russell
 
D

db

you might simply
want to move the harddrive
from the old pc into your new pc.

then just do a repair install to
synchronize your harddrive to the new
pc.

if the new pc already has a harddrive
you might want to make it a slave drive..

- db
I just built a new PC, and the only thing left is to load the OS. I
currently have a Windows XP full install disk. However, I have used
this install on my old PC.

Is there any way if I can reuse the install cd? I can remove XP from
the old machine, but I don't see how Windows would recognize that the
OS was removed. I just hate to plunk down another $200 bucks.
 
H

HEMI-Powered

Today, Ken Blake, MVP made these interesting comments ...
Not a problem. If yours is a Full Retail version, simply
remove it from the old computer and reinstall it on the new
one. The license permits you to move it from machine to
machine as often as you want.You'll have to reactivate it on
the new computer, but that's not a problem.

However, be sure that you don't have an OEM version, which
people sometimes confuse with the Full Retail version. If
yours is an OEM copy, its license ties it permanently to the
first computer it's installed on. It may never be moved to
another computer or sold or given away by itself. For this
reason, I always recommend against buying OEM versions.
Ken, I understand your answer, but does Windows know if you've
done an illegal transfer or not? Clearly it will detect different
HW but what is to stop someone from re-activating on a different
PC? No, I haven't, mine are both retail, but you have to
understand that lots of people have the romantic notion that if
they BUY something it is theirs, no matter how many times you
folks say otherwise. This is especially true if one actually buys
an OEM install CD, which can be done, and not so much if they
bought an OEM PC.
 
B

Bruce Chambers

HEMI-Powered said:
Ken, I understand your answer, but does Windows know if you've
done an illegal transfer or not? Clearly it will detect different
HW but what is to stop someone from re-activating on a different
PC?


"Windows" doesn't know.

Ultimately, it comes down to the integrity of the computer user. An
honest person won't renege on his contract and violate the EULA. In the
end, Microsoft is "hoping" that their customers are honest.

No, I haven't, mine are both retail, but you have to
understand that lots of people have the romantic notion that if
they BUY something it is theirs, no matter how many times you
folks say otherwise.


What those "romantics" have to learn to understand that what they
bought was a license, plain and simple. If they think they bought
anything else, they're deluding themselves.

This is especially true if one actually buys
an OEM install CD, which can be done, and not so much if they
bought an OEM PC.

How so? The OEM EULA makes it very clear that it is not transferable.


--

Bruce Chambers

Help us help you:



They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. -Benjamin Franklin

Many people would rather die than think; in fact, most do. -Bertrand Russell
 
K

Ken Blake, MVP

HEMI-Powered said:
Today, Ken Blake, MVP made these interesting comments ...

Ken, I understand your answer, but does Windows know if you've
done an illegal transfer or not? Clearly it will detect different
HW but what is to stop someone from re-activating on a different
PC?


Windows Product Activation is not a foolproof scheme that absolutely
prevents you from violating the rules. It makes some violations harder to
accomplish, but mostly what it does it make it clearer to each user what the
rules are.

The one license per machine rule is not new to Windows XP--it goes back at
least as far as Windows 3.1--but because there was never an enforcement
mechanism before, many people were simply unaware that it existed. They
often violated the licensing rules without even realizing that they were
doing so. What WPA does is make those rules much clearer. That's not to say
you can't ever get away with a violation, but it now takes a much more overt
act to do so, and many people are not willing to do that.

No, I haven't, mine are both retail, but you have to
understand that lots of people have the romantic notion that if
they BUY something it is theirs, no matter how many times you
folks say otherwise. This is especially true if one actually buys
an OEM install CD, which can be done, and not so much if they
bought an OEM PC.


Several points here:

1. I'm not sure who you mean by "you folks," but I'm not someone who gets to
set any rules, interpret the rules, or enforce the rules. I'm just a Windows
user, the same as you.Lest you think that the MVP title means I'm a
Microsoft employee, let me hasten to explain that I'm not.

2. It's got nothing to do with romantic notions. What those people (and you
and me as well) "buy" is a license to use the product. They don't buy the
product outright, and they don't own it. The license to use it, as with any
other kind of license, comes with certain rules and restrictions.

3. Personally, I very much dislike the idea of having two kinds of licenses,
retail and OEM. The differences between them are often not made clearly
enough, and many people don't understand that the OEM license has severe
disadvantages that the retail one doesn't. In my view, part of the reason
for that lack of understanding is Microsoft's fault and part of it is the
fault of those who sell the OEM versions (either with an OEM PC or without
one). We live in a caveat emptor world, and it's a rare person who wants to
sell you something, but tells you what's wrong with it. As I said, I
recommend against OEM versions, because I don't think the small savings you
get with them (as compared to Upgrade versions, which are what I recommend)
is worth the disadvantages they come with.

If I had my druthers, there would be only a single kind of license, with the
same set of rules and restrictions for everyone. But, again, I don't get to
make the rules.
 
H

HEMI-Powered

Today, Bruce Chambers made these interesting comments ...
"Windows" doesn't know.

Ultimately, it comes down to the integrity of the
computer user. An
honest person won't renege on his contract and violate the
EULA. In the end, Microsoft is "hoping" that their customers
are honest.

I suspected that, Bruce. Considering the amount of sheep dung
that is rightly or wrongly heaped on MS, and I've dumped my share
in the past, it isn't much of a stretch to assume a whole lotta
folk would want to put one on old Bill. But, as to a EULA in the
traditional sense, yes it is but no it isn't. I'm not an attorney
but believe that the courts have generally ruled in favor of the
IP owner in these disputes except if the defendent brings up the
fact that a EULA is unlike a normally enforceable contract in
that it allows no negotiation of terms and consideration between
the two parties. Thus, most people soon realize that they either
"agree" to the EULA or they don't install the SW. That said,
again, it is not much of a stretch for people who think a gun was
put to their heads to "force" them to agree in order for them to
want to take their paid for "property" with them to a new PC.
Moreover, them that do real EULAs are highly unlikely to
understand much beyond the basic message that the EULA writer
owns/can do anything while the agreer/buyer can do nothing. Not
the makings for a friendly relationship, I don't think.
What those "romantics" have to learn to understand that
what they
bought was a license, plain and simple. If they think they
bought anything else, they're deluding themselves.
Look software is different than about any other commodity people
normally buy. It's closest analogy might be a book you buy at a
book store. Under that analogy, you can only read one copy at a
time and cannot copy it verbatim. But, you CAN sell it, however
we're talking retail here. SW, OTOH, looks like a commodity I
literally buy, it comes in a big yellow box and had a physical
CD, just like music. Except that what I am ostensibly buying is
neither the box nor the optical media, I am "buying" the contents
of the CD. So, I used a non-confrontational term of "romantic" to
mean that a LOT of people who pay $50, $100, $150+ for a
"license" in reality think they OWN it, whatever it is, and can
do what they please with it, including but not limited to, carry
it to their next PC. Yep, I know it ain't legal, but it sure is
prevalent. This is the root of silly euphemisms like WGA, it
isn't to ensure authenticity as it is also alleged that
activation is for, it is to stop piracy. I don't know the best
path out of this mess, but lowering the price for ALL SW into the
mass media range is a step in the right direction. People who can
buy the new whiz bang whatsoever for $7.95 won't have nearly as
much monetary incentive to steal it.
How so? The OEM EULA makes it very clear that it is not
transferable.

See above. Nobody reads the EULA, them who do don't understand
it, and them who do understand it but want to steal it, don't
care. Another analogy: do gun control laws help deter gun-related
crime at all? People who sell SW simply must stop saying "but my
EULA says you can't do that" when people already know that
literally or intrinsicly, it is the high cost for low perceived
value that causes people to "steal", and one can buy an OEM
Windows "license" in a plain wrapper without the neat yellow box
for about 2/3 what a retail license cost, so people do and just
like retail, they at least try to carry it to a new PC if that's
how they were brought up.
 
H

HEMI-Powered

Today, Ken Blake, MVP made these interesting comments ...

[snip]
Windows Product Activation is not a foolproof scheme that
absolutely prevents you from violating the rules. It makes
some violations harder to accomplish, but mostly what it does
it make it clearer to each user what the rules are.

The one license per machine rule is not new to Windows XP--it
goes back at least as far as Windows 3.1--but because there
was never an enforcement mechanism before, many people were
simply unaware that it existed. They often violated the
licensing rules without even realizing that they were doing
so. What WPA does is make those rules much clearer. That's not
to say you can't ever get away with a violation, but it now
takes a much more overt act to do so, and many people are not
willing to do that.
Obviously correct, but product activation, i.e., copy protection
of a different color, wasn't there in early Windows nor in most
SW nor for music and movies. They ALL revolve around the same
basic false premise: if I make it hard to pirate this stuff, I
can still raise the price beyond all reason and point to a EULA
to defend myself. So, as I like analogies, an entire "industry"
is devoted to cracking these schemes and people write software to
allow the copying of protected movie DVDs. But, as an old boss
once said, rule breakers can always stay ahead of rule makers and
the war goes on. The real losers, though, are the honest folk who
wind up paying more for this stuff in the price of the product
plus run the risk that their "player", DVD or PC, won't be able
to read the protection scheme du jour.
Several points here:

1. I'm not sure who you mean by "you folks,"

Mr. and Mrs. America

but I'm not
someone who gets to set any rules, interpret the rules, or
enforce the rules. I'm just a Windows user, the same as
you.Lest you think that the MVP title means I'm a Microsoft
employee, let me hasten to explain that I'm not.

didn't say you were
2. It's got nothing to do with romantic notions. What those
people (and you and me as well) "buy" is a license to use the
product. They don't buy the product outright, and they don't
own it. The license to use it, as with any other kind of
license, comes with certain rules and restrictions.

that's a word which means "in their minds eye", which again means
that people think that something they paid hard earned dollars
for is their to keep and re-re-re-use. I understand all the
blather about license vs purchase and abide by it fully, but you
folks at MS, and other developers as well, must understand that
not everyone shares your view of the world. The number of
questions about this, some just veiled ways of asking "can I get
around this?" show that the practice of kiting a license is wide-
spread.
3. Personally, I very much dislike the idea of having two
kinds of licenses, retail and OEM. The differences between
them are often not made clearly enough, and many people don't
understand that the OEM license has severe disadvantages that
the retail one doesn't. In my view, part of the reason for
that lack of understanding is Microsoft's fault and part of it
is the fault of those who sell the OEM versions (either with
an OEM PC or without one). We live in a caveat emptor world,
and it's a rare person who wants to sell you something, but
tells you what's wrong with it. As I said, I recommend against
OEM versions, because I don't think the small savings you get
with them (as compared to Upgrade versions, which are what I
recommend) is worth the disadvantages they come with.

I had an OEM license for a version of Windows prior to XP, maybe
98, I forget. I got it from the guy who built my PC. When XP came
along, I spent the extra bucks for a retail version so that I
could a) get some amount of free support and b) the license would
be transferable. For me, in the end the small increase in price
was worth it, but I also know people who feel otherwise.

As to living in a caveat emptor world, I disagree. We do live in
a litigious world, but good, honest people still have some faith
in the people they deal with and in the companies they buy from.
I reject the notion that people should expect to be screwed at
some point, harkening back to the robber baron days of former
monopolies.

But, you are clearly right about no one who sells anything
telling you what's wrong with it. First, it destroys confidence
in the product and also leads to litigation. But, no company can
completely hide its flaws and confession is still good for the
soul, and the pocketbook, as it avoids the truly devastating loss
of reputation that comes when people discover you've lied to them
and also leads to those nasty class action lawsuits. But, since
nobody who can think really believes software is bug-free, and
because their choices are very limited, people do put up with
bugs and other nasties because they simply have no choice. And,
Ken, while I don't think a developer ever sets out to screw
anybody, they also don't mind if they do. After all, just wait a
year and they can "fix" all the old bugs by introducing a new
version.
If I had my druthers, there would be only a single kind of
license, with the same set of rules and restrictions for
everyone. But, again, I don't get to make the rules.
For those at MS who do make the rules, if there were only retail
licenses, the expensive kind, it wouldn't be nearly as easy to
get the OEM PC makers to pay for it, thus the two-tier pricing
system was born.
 
K

Ken Blake, MVP

HEMI-Powered said:
Today, Ken Blake, MVP made these interesting comments ...

but I'm not

didn't say you were


that's a word which means "in their minds eye", which again means
that people think that something they paid hard earned dollars
for is their to keep and re-re-re-use. I understand all the
blather about license vs purchase and abide by it fully, but you
folks at MS,


Again, I'm not *at* MS. I'm just a Windows user like others here. The MVP
title is an honorary one, awarded to people who have demonstrated their
consistency in helping people here with accurate information.

So, I'm not the same as folks at MS, and I'm not even the same as all other
MVPs. My views on licensing probably coincide with those of some MVPs, and
are diametrically opposed to those of others. Please don't paint us all with
the same brush. MVPs are a diverse lot, with different backgrounds and
different knowledge. There really isn't even any such thing as a typical
MVP.

and other developers as well,


I'm not a developer either (although I used to be).

must understand that
not everyone shares your view of the world.


Of course I understand that not everyone shares my view of the world. But
that has nothing to do with being an MVP. I'm sure that many other MVPs
don't share my view of the world, either. As I said, we are all very
different people.

The number of
questions about this, some just veiled ways of asking "can I get
around this?" show that the practice of kiting a license is wide-
spread.



Of course it is. But although I have no statistics as to back it up, I think
it's much less widespread than it used to be, in the days before product
activation. I personally know many people with multiple computers in their
homes, who used to share a single copy of Windows 98 on all their computers,
but now have multiple copies of Windows XP. In that sense at least, whether
or not you or I personally like it, WPA has been a success.

Personally I wish WPA didn't exist. But I understand why Microsoft chose to
put it in place.

I had an OEM license for a version of Windows prior to XP, maybe
98, I forget. I got it from the guy who built my PC. When XP came
along, I spent the extra bucks for a retail version so that I
could a) get some amount of free support and b) the license would
be transferable. For me, in the end the small increase in price
was worth it, but I also know people who feel otherwise.

As to living in a caveat emptor world, I disagree. We do live in
a litigious world, but good, honest people still have some faith
in the people they deal with and in the companies they buy from.
I reject the notion that people should expect to be screwed at
some point, harkening back to the robber baron days of former
monopolies.


I don't think people should expect to be screwed either. But "caveat emptor"
doesn't mean that. It means that the responsibility for finding out what it
you are buying, and how well it meets your needs is yours, the buyers, not
the sellers. If you are luckly, you may find a helpful salesman who will try
to get you the product that's best for you, but don't depend on it.

But, you are clearly right about no one who sells anything
telling you what's wrong with it. First, it destroys confidence
in the product and also leads to litigation. But, no company can
completely hide its flaws and confession is still good for the
soul, and the pocketbook, as it avoids the truly devastating loss
of reputation that comes when people discover you've lied to them
and also leads to those nasty class action lawsuits. But, since
nobody who can think really believes software is bug-free,


It's irrelevant to this discussion, but I am continually astonished by the
number of people who don't understand that anything as complex as modern
software can *not* be bug-free.

and
because their choices are very limited, people do put up with
bugs and other nasties because they simply have no choice.


And also because, in good software (not perfect--perfection doesn't exist),
most bugs bite you very seldom, or the pain of the bite is very little.

And,
Ken, while I don't think a developer ever sets out to screw
anybody, they also don't mind if they do. After all, just wait a
year and they can "fix" all the old bugs by introducing a new
version.


But that's not really the developer's point of view; it's the point of view
of the marketing people, who are typically in a hurry to get the product on
the shelves as soon as possible.


For those at MS who do make the rules, if there were only retail
licenses, the expensive kind, it wouldn't be nearly as easy to
get the OEM PC makers to pay for it, thus the two-tier pricing
system was born.


Oh, I understand why it exists. But that doesn't mean I have to like it. And
there are alternative schemes that could be workable.
 
H

HEMI-Powered

Today, Ken Blake, MVP made these interesting comments ...

[snip]
Again, I'm not *at* MS. I'm just a Windows user like others
here. The MVP title is an honorary one, awarded to people who
have demonstrated their consistency in helping people here
with accurate information.

Ken, I know you're not necessarily a MS employee, you're a
volunteer who signed some sort of NDA and perhaps other things
you must honor in order to get the honor of being an MVP. I don't
think I insulted you but if I did, I apologize. But, it is true
that MVPs in general either want to or feel they have to tote the
company line. I thought I was clear about your statements about
EULAs in my comments about how and why some folks side step them.
So, I'm not the same as folks at MS, and I'm not even the same
as all other MVPs. My views on licensing probably coincide
with those of some MVPs, and are diametrically opposed to
those of others. Please don't paint us all with the same
brush. MVPs are a diverse lot, with different backgrounds and
different knowledge. There really isn't even any such thing as
a typical MVP.

Well, my view of licensing is that is it totally BS. I don't like
the idea of buying something with real money that I cannot claim
I own or that I have a signed legally enforceable contract, ala a
car or apartment lease. SW by its nature has everything going for
the seller and zero for the buyer. MS could, if they wanted to,
simply invalidate my license under some obscure provision in the
EULA I "agreed to" or it could put me out of business by
refusing to update it anymore, ala if I refuse WGA enough times.
I don't like that. But, I am a realist and I know I can't do
anything about it. So, I pay my dues and I do my best to protect
myself.

Let me be perfectly clear, though: I do NOT steal software and I
do NOT condone those who do. If not for moral reasons, my views
are purely economic - the lost profits from ANY stolen SW gets
passed on to me in the form of higher licensing fees, read, it
costs me more to buy it.
I'm not a developer either (although I used to be).

I was also, and I didn't much appreciate people stealing my IP.
Of course I understand that not everyone shares my view of the
world. But that has nothing to do with being an MVP. I'm sure
that many other MVPs don't share my view of the world, either.
As I said, we are all very different people.

Well, I guess you have to reconcile your personal views with
those required of you to keep your MVP status. I can't imagine MS
allowing MVPs to stay MVPs that are in any way disparaging the
company. No, I didn't just accuse you of that, I'm just
commenting on why I think that MVPs as a group must, of
necessity, be circumspect as to what they do and say on-line.
Of course it is. But although I have no statistics as to back
it up, I think it's much less widespread than it used to be,
in the days before product activation. I personally know many
people with multiple computers in their homes, who used to
share a single copy of Windows 98 on all their computers, but
now have multiple copies of Windows XP. In that sense at
least, whether or not you or I personally like it, WPA has
been a success.

I have no stats, either. Probably, though, what stops it more
than people being more moral is that typical OEM PCs are
difficult to cross-license and it isn't too easy to take a
Windows CD and install it on your next PC. That's entirely
different if you're building your own or having one built where
the HW isn't proprietary.
Personally I wish WPA didn't exist. But I understand why
Microsoft chose to put it in place.

Everybody understands authentication, it is to enhance profits. I
have no problem with companies being compensated for their work.
I just wish that as a user I weren't penalized or have to prove I
am innocent. You know as well as I do that WGA, not WPA,
generates tons of false positives which the honest user's must
resolve somehow. That bites.
I don't think people should expect to be screwed either. But
"caveat emptor" doesn't mean that. It means that the
responsibility for finding out what it you are buying, and how
well it meets your needs is yours, the buyers, not the
sellers. If you are luckly, you may find a helpful salesman
who will try to get you the product that's best for you, but
don't depend on it.

I understand the Latin. But, by and large, Mr. and Mrs. America
are NOT educated nor careful, so caveat emptor to them means
you're likely to be screwed over at some point, be prepared.
It's irrelevant to this discussion, but I am continually
astonished by the number of people who don't understand that
anything as complex as modern software can *not* be bug-free.

When I wrote Apple ][ software 30 years ago, it was impossible
for me to write bug-free code, so I would be VERY surprised if
development teams in the tens of thousands could possibly do it.
And, I would be surprised to no end of an O/S that needs to run
every piece of SW and HW ever invented, AND be secure, could
possibly be bug-free. That's not an issue with me at all. I am
very careful with what I allow MS to update on my system, but the
total number of bug fixes per year is reasonable to me.
And also because, in good software (not perfect--perfection
doesn't exist), most bugs bite you very seldom, or the pain of
the bite is very little.

There are early bugs and then there are later side-effect bugs.
It is difficult to get around the latter, but one can duck the
former by just waiting. That's why I say that I refuse to beta
test ANY SW with my Visa card. I waited about 15 months to go to
SP2, I expect it'll be 2 years before I build a new PC and
install Vista. That isn't the answer that Bill Gates and Steve
Ballmer want to hear, but maybe you understand what I mean.
But that's not really the developer's point of view; it's the
point of view of the marketing people, who are typically in a
hurry to get the product on the shelves as soon as possible.
I didn't say that it was the developers out to screw anybody.
Everybody has a boss, even Bill Gates. But, pushing the problem
off on marketing hardly makes it go away, it just shifts the
blame. And, no, Ken, my company doesn't make any bug-free cars,
never has, never will. But, we also don't intentionally make bad
cars but ALL producers of ALL commodities must make economic
compromises else they'd go out of business.
Oh, I understand why it exists. But that doesn't mean I have
to like it. And there are alternative schemes that could be
workable.

I am all ears to alternative schemes but I don't see any on the
horizon. Copy protection is on the rise, through various
euphemisms, the current one being activation schemes "to ensure
authentic sofware." Yeah, right.

Have a good day, Ken.
 
K

Ken Blake, MVP

HEMI-Powered said:
Today, Ken Blake, MVP made these interesting comments ...

[snip]
Again, I'm not *at* MS. I'm just a Windows user like others
here. The MVP title is an honorary one, awarded to people who
have demonstrated their consistency in helping people here
with accurate information.

Ken, I know you're not necessarily a MS employee, you're a
volunteer who signed some sort of NDA and perhaps other things
you must honor in order to get the honor of being an MVP. I don't
think I insulted you but if I did, I apologize.


No apology necessry. I was not and am not insulted. I just wanted to clarify
the situation in case you didn't understand it.

But, it is true
that MVPs in general either want to or feel they have to tote the
company line.


Again, I don't think generalizations are accurate. There are undoubtedly
MVPS who feel that way. I speak for myself, and don't toe any party line.

Well, I guess you have to reconcile your personal views with
those required of you to keep your MVP status. I can't imagine MS
allowing MVPs to stay MVPs that are in any way disparaging the
company. No, I didn't just accuse you of that, I'm just
commenting on why I think that MVPs as a group must, of
necessity, be circumspect as to what they do and say on-line.


I don't disparage Microsoft because I don't have any reason to. Like most
companies, I agree with some things they do, and disagree with others. When
I disagree, I say so. But if I disagree, it's with an individual thing they
may do, not with everything the company does.

They make some excellent software, and some other software that I don't
think is as good as the competition's. I'm sure not every MVP agrees with
me, but as a single example, I've many times said here that I prefer
WordPerfect to Microsoft Word (but Excel to Quattro Pro). I don't know how
Microsoft feels about my saying that, but I can tell you that I've never
heard a word of protest about it from anyone at Microsoft, and I've been
reawarded several times. If I were in Microsoft's shoes, I would be glad to
have at least some MVPs not prefer everything Microsoft does to the
competition's products because I think it gives the MVPs as a group more
credibility.

I'm not sure what might happen to an MVP who actively disparaged the company
(as opposed to simply preferring a competitors product in a few arenas), but
you might well be right that Microsoft wouldn't tolerate it. But speaking
for myself, it would never be an issue because I felt that way about
Microsoft as a company, I just wouldn't accept the MVP award.

Have a good day, Ken.


You too.
 
B

Bruce Chambers

HEMI-Powered said:
Today, Bruce Chambers made these interesting comments ...


I suspected that, Bruce. Considering the amount of sheep dung
that is rightly or wrongly heaped on MS, and I've dumped my share
in the past, it isn't much of a stretch to assume a whole lotta
folk would want to put one on old Bill. But, as to a EULA in the
traditional sense, yes it is but no it isn't. I'm not an attorney
but believe that the courts have generally ruled in favor of the
IP owner in these disputes except if the defendent brings up the
fact that a EULA is unlike a normally enforceable contract in
that it allows no negotiation of terms and consideration between
the two parties.


Actually, a Federal Court has ruled that shrink-wrapped EULAs, such as
those accompanying software, *are* legally enforceable contracts. The
court held that the EULA was not fundamentally different from, say, the
terms of a new toaster oven's warranty, which the purchaser could not
read until he'd purchased the product, taken it home, opened the box,
and only then read the warranty terms. Similarly, people who purchase
automobiles don't generally read the full warranty (or the finance
contract, for that matter) at the time of purchase; but the warranty is
still upheld as valid.

Thus, most people soon realize that they either
"agree" to the EULA or they don't install the SW. That said,
again, it is not much of a stretch for people who think a gun was
put to their heads to "force" them to agree in order for them to
want to take their paid for "property" with them to a new PC.


I realize that a great many people think this, but I've no sympathy for
them. They could have avoided the issue by doing a few minutes product
research _before_ making the purchase.
Moreover, them that do real EULAs are highly unlikely to
understand much beyond the basic message that the EULA writer
owns/can do anything while the agreer/buyer can do nothing. Not
the makings for a friendly relationship, I don't think.


True enough.

Look software is different than about any other commodity people
normally buy.


Exactly! So why would people think it's the same?

It's closest analogy might be a book you buy at a
book store. Under that analogy, you can only read one copy at a
time and cannot copy it verbatim. But, you CAN sell it, however
we're talking retail here. SW, OTOH, looks like a commodity I
literally buy, it comes in a big yellow box and had a physical
CD, just like music.


One can also resell a retail software license. The OEM license is much
less expensive largely because it isn't resalable.

Except that what I am ostensibly buying is
neither the box nor the optical media, I am "buying" the contents
of the CD. So, I used a non-confrontational term of "romantic" to
mean that a LOT of people who pay $50, $100, $150+ for a
"license" in reality think they OWN it, whatever it is, and can
do what they please with it, including but not limited to, carry
it to their next PC. Yep, I know it ain't legal, but it sure is
prevalent.


You've a point about the willful ignorance of most consumers, and the
prevalence of their attitude, but they're in the wrong, regardless.

This is the root of silly euphemisms like WGA, it
isn't to ensure authenticity as it is also alleged that
activation is for, it is to stop piracy.


WGA and WPA can't really stop software piracy, no more than the door
locks on our houses and cars will stop the determined thief, but they
can help deter "crimes of opportunity," which is what most casual
pirates do.

I don't know the best
path out of this mess, but lowering the price for ALL SW into the
mass media range is a step in the right direction. People who can
buy the new whiz bang whatsoever for $7.95 won't have nearly as
much monetary incentive to steal it.


No, theives will still steal regardless of the cost. Honest people won't.


See above. Nobody reads the EULA,


Then are they all liars? After all, they've clicked a button that says
they read und understood the terms, as well as agreed to abide by them.





--

Bruce Chambers

Help us help you:



They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. -Benjamin Franklin

Many people would rather die than think; in fact, most do. -Bertrand Russell
 
H

HEMI-Powered

Today, Ken Blake, MVP made these interesting comments ...

[snip]
I'm not sure what might happen to an MVP who actively
disparaged the company (as opposed to simply preferring a
competitors product in a few arenas), but you might well be
right that Microsoft wouldn't tolerate it. But speaking for
myself, it would never be an issue because I felt that way
about Microsoft as a company, I just wouldn't accept the MVP
award.

I don't know what happens to "rogue" MVPs, either. But then,
anyplace where a commercial concern has a NG, whether it be a fully
sponsored one or just where they allow their name to be used,
anyone sufficiently disparaging them will be banished for life.
Again, I don't know about these series of MS NGs, but I'd be
suprised if people survived for long with truly egregious
statements or accusations, but "ordinary" venting and flaming would
probably pass unnoticed.

Anyway, the nice thing about living in this country is that we have
at least a modicum of freedom of speech left. <somewhat grin>
 
H

HEMI-Powered

Today, Bruce Chambers made these interesting comments ...
Actually, a Federal Court has ruled that shrink-wrapped
EULAs, such as
those accompanying software, *are* legally enforceable
contracts. The court held that the EULA was not fundamentally
different from, say, the terms of a new toaster oven's
warranty, which the purchaser could not read until he'd
purchased the product, taken it home, opened the box, and only
then read the warranty terms. Similarly, people who purchase
automobiles don't generally read the full warranty (or the
finance contract, for that matter) at the time of purchase;
but the warranty is still upheld as valid.

I'm aware that "courts" have ruled both ways, but again, I'm not
an attorney, so obviously I'm not a contract attorney nor am I
privy to case law. I would wonder, though, at what level(s)
various cases have been ruled on. A Federal circuit court cannot
set a precident, that takes an appellate court. Also, my limited
knowledge of appellate decisions is that they are often quite
narrow, making it difficult to make generalities.

But, to the purchase of commodities where a purchase agreement is
signed, as in cars, houses, and the like, it is easier for the
concern writing the contract to point to a piece of paper
actually signed if a dispute arises, rather than "proof" that a
user did or did not actually "agree" to a EULA.

Then, too, in today's litigious society, people can and do sue
for about anything they please, given they can find a lawyer
willing to take the case on a contingency basis. But, hey, what
are we arguing about? MS isn't going to come after a lone user
who abused the EULA, they have bigger fish to fry.
I realize that a great many people think this, but I've
no sympathy for
them. They could have avoided the issue by doing a few
minutes product research _before_ making the purchase.

Sympathy or empathy aren't at issue here, fairness and reality
are. People at large no longer read this stuff because it is
futile either way. Most often, people who buy software or attempt
to create some sort of on-line account to do whatever are only
interested in using the product or service, and to do that, they
MUST "agree", thus whether it is or is not legally binding or
not, fair or not, or whether any of us agree with the practice or
not, it has been my experience that reality trumps any card in
the game of life.
True enough.



Exactly! So why would people think it's the same?

Again, this is simple enough to understand. Many people,
certainly not all of them, maybe not even "most", do view things
they "buy" with real money or paper money like Visa they actually
own and can use or dispose of as they please. Were this syndrome
not true, then why all the hoopla about EULAs and activation
stuff in the first place? If people weren't doing what I assert,
there'd be no reason for a SW developer to "resort" to
"authentication" schemes that accuse new users of being theives
even before they've committed the crime.
One can also resell a retail software license. The OEM
license is much
less expensive largely because it isn't resalable.

So I've heard. Again, an OEM license you get from Gateway or Dell
or Compaq and one you buy yourself somehow are different in that
the retail OEM has modified it to suit their own proprietary HW
system and it likely cannot be transferred technically, even if
legally or in actuality, so the question may well be both
academic and moot.
You've a point about the willful ignorance of most
consumers, and the
prevalence of their attitude, but they're in the wrong,
regardless.
I didn't use the term "willful" but I guess it fits. But, there
is wrong, and then there is wrong. Many people feel that some
crimes are victimless, so they are either not crimes at all (in
their minds) or less of a crime to the point of not worrying
about it. So, wrt this discussion, it is likely only the honest
folk or the very naive folk who ask these questions in a forum
like this. The rest do whatever it is they want to and nobody is
the wiser unless they're running a bootleg CD ring.
WGA and WPA can't really stop software piracy, no more
than the door
locks on our houses and cars will stop the determined thief,
but they can help deter "crimes of opportunity," which is what
most casual pirates do.

Nope, they can't stop piracy, they just make life miserable for
the law abiding. Anti-theft devices on cars these days aren't
designed to make the car theft-proof, that is impossible as you
say. They are designed to make it hard enough that a pro will
just move on. I would assert something similar is going on here,
only in reverse. The pros steal with impunity - until caught,
then they go to jail - but the allegedly law abiding folk get
caught up with calling MS and begging them to allow full usage of
what they think they paid for when WGA says they're pirates.
No, theives will still steal regardless of the cost.
Honest people won't.

What you say is true in theory, of course, but experience has
shown that lowering prices to the point where wholesale piracy is
made impractical actually does work. But, even MS claims that WGA
and the like are for the big OEMs and not the small fry, yet it
is the small fish caught in the net who come here and other
places for help.
Then are they all liars? After all, they've clicked a
button that says
they read und understood the terms, as well as agreed to abide
by them.

There is a big, big difference between being a liar and being
ignorant. EULAs are written by lawyers for lawyers, some run on
for pages, so whose to know what they really do or don't mean.
But, one more time iffn ya doesn't click "I agree" ya doesn't get
ta use da stuff, so ya mights as well agree and move on with your
life.
 

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