S
Scott M.
"dinny" > bla bla bla
aka: Uninformed and has just realized it.
aka: Uninformed and has just realized it.
C
Cor Ligthert
Hi Herfried,
make methaphors to this (and read further before you start typing)?
By instance I can answer directly on this, when you are out of fuel it is
important to know what type your motor is.
OTTO
http://www.physik.uni-muenchen.de/leifiphysik/web_ph09/umwelt_technik/08otto-motor/viertakt.htm
or DIESEL
http://www.physik.uni-muenchen.de/leifiphysik/web_ph09/umwelt_technik/08diesel/diesel.htm
So to make this complete, because you know there are differences, you would
set in your mind a statement at the tankstation as
If typeof motor Is Diesel then etc.
To make the methaphor complete, you should know what types of engines there
are.
I did not read the complete thread in depth only your statement.
))
Cor
You only have a few months your drivers license, do you think it is good to
make methaphors to this (and read further before you start typing)?
By instance I can answer directly on this, when you are out of fuel it is
important to know what type your motor is.
OTTO
http://www.physik.uni-muenchen.de/leifiphysik/web_ph09/umwelt_technik/08otto-motor/viertakt.htm
or DIESEL
http://www.physik.uni-muenchen.de/leifiphysik/web_ph09/umwelt_technik/08diesel/diesel.htm
So to make this complete, because you know there are differences, you would
set in your mind a statement at the tankstation as
If typeof motor Is Diesel then etc.
To make the methaphor complete, you should know what types of engines there
are.
I did not read the complete thread in depth only your statement.
))Cor
C
Cor Ligthert
Herfried,
Before you say it,
Of course is DieselEngine an derived type from Engine and not a "fuel"
property, the differences are more than only the fuel.
Cor
Before you say it,
Of course is DieselEngine an derived type from Engine and not a "fuel"
property, the differences are more than only the fuel.
Cor
M
Mick Doherty
I haven't seen any of the previous content of this thread, but judging by
the title, the CommonLanguageRuntime is not important at this time.
I do not know what the CLR is but I still manage to code. Granted I am not,
and don't intend to ever be, a proffessional programmer, but not knowing
what the CLR is does not stop me from writing programs.
For someone just starting out in programming it is essential to understand
the basic concepts (i.e. structures, methods, events, loops and conditional
statements). We may all take these for granted, but having recently been in
a class with novice programmers, I understand that these are not as straight
forward as we believe them to be. We may apply our understanding of these
concepts to any programming language, whether it be .net based or not.
Once we have a good understanding of the basics, then maybe it's time to
delve a bit deeper and see what's happening beneath the covers to improve on
our existing knowledge.
When learning to drive you do not need to know anything about the engine,
looking after that is the responsibility of the Instructor. I have a fair
knowledge of engines but it does not help me to drive my car. It does,
however, help me to keep it running.
As for the engine being the most important component, I must disagree. The
most important component would be the brakes. Your car would not be too much
use if it got from 0 to 60 in 4 secs but did not stop. Without an engine it
may not go anywhere (except downhill) but, so long as the brakes work, you
should always get out of it safely.
the title, the CommonLanguageRuntime is not important at this time.
I do not know what the CLR is but I still manage to code. Granted I am not,
and don't intend to ever be, a proffessional programmer, but not knowing
what the CLR is does not stop me from writing programs.
For someone just starting out in programming it is essential to understand
the basic concepts (i.e. structures, methods, events, loops and conditional
statements). We may all take these for granted, but having recently been in
a class with novice programmers, I understand that these are not as straight
forward as we believe them to be. We may apply our understanding of these
concepts to any programming language, whether it be .net based or not.
Once we have a good understanding of the basics, then maybe it's time to
delve a bit deeper and see what's happening beneath the covers to improve on
our existing knowledge.
When learning to drive you do not need to know anything about the engine,
looking after that is the responsibility of the Instructor. I have a fair
knowledge of engines but it does not help me to drive my car. It does,
however, help me to keep it running.
As for the engine being the most important component, I must disagree. The
most important component would be the brakes. Your car would not be too much
use if it got from 0 to 60 in 4 secs but did not stop. Without an engine it
may not go anywhere (except downhill) but, so long as the brakes work, you
should always get out of it safely.
C
Cor Ligthert
Mick,
Most I agree with the exception of the explanation of the car.
The CLR is not the engine in my opinion, maybe you can compare it with the
crankshaft.
In my view you can see the engine as a major part of the framework build
with a lot of components, lets say the control classes which the developper
uses to create the application. I think it is for a developper good to learn
the main parts of the framework, however that is in my opinion not in
contradiction with your message
))
Cor
"Mick Doherty"
(e-mail address removed)...
Most I agree with the exception of the explanation of the car.
The CLR is not the engine in my opinion, maybe you can compare it with the
crankshaft.
In my view you can see the engine as a major part of the framework build
with a lot of components, lets say the control classes which the developper
uses to create the application. I think it is for a developper good to learn
the main parts of the framework, however that is in my opinion not in
contradiction with your message
))Cor
"Mick Doherty"
(e-mail address removed)...
H
Herfried K. Wagner [MVP]
Cor Ligthert said:You only have a few months your drivers license, do you think
it is good to make methaphors to this (and read further before
you start typing)?
By instance I can answer directly on this, when you are out of
fuel it is important to know what type your motor is.
Sure, that's important. But you don't need to know about all the processes
and their characterstics (pressure, temperature, ...) of the engine. BTW:
I learned about the different types of engines at school...
I did not read the complete thread in depth only your statement.
))
M
Mick Doherty
I wasn't comparing the CLR to a cars engine. That was done previously and I
was expressing my view on that analogy.
I haven't read up on the CLR and so I cannot compare it to any component of
a truck. I would expect though, that it would define a set of components
necessary for the truck to run, no matter what the fuel source was, hence
the name Common Lorry Runtime ;o)
was expressing my view on that analogy.
I haven't read up on the CLR and so I cannot compare it to any component of
a truck. I would expect though, that it would define a set of components
necessary for the truck to run, no matter what the fuel source was, hence
the name Common Lorry Runtime ;o)
D
dinny
aka: Uninformed and has just realized it.
The only reason Microsoft is constantly changing things, is so that
the competitors will be so busy catching up, they would not have
time to innovate. It's a divide and rule type of thing, and it has
less to do with real advances in hardware. This
is why Microsoft products are so full of security bugs, because
microsoft preferes to get a product out and then immediately
start on a new product.
The only reason Microsoft is constantly changing things, is so that
the competitors will be so busy catching up, they would not have
time to innovate. It's a divide and rule type of thing, and it has
less to do with real advances in hardware. This
is why Microsoft products are so full of security bugs, because
microsoft preferes to get a product out and then immediately
start on a new product.
P
Patrick Dickey
Hello, "dinny" <nospam>!
You wrote on Sat, 6 Nov 2004 01:38:56 -0000:
d> VB .NET is as complicated as C++. Be prepared for a few semesters
d> of hard work. One source of information is msdn.microsoft.com,
d> though the VB6 Programmer's Guide was much more step by step
d> sort of thing, i.e very methodical. I am not sure the VB7 walkthroughs,
d> as they are called now, give you all that you need, maybe someone
d> will comment as well.
Ok, I've read all of the posts in this thread, and have a couple of
questions. Since, some of us are actually 'newbies'. Are there any links
to information on the CLR that are written for 'laymen'? Also, for a
newbie, since that's what the thread was originally intended, would you
suggest starting out learning about the .NET Framework then moving on to the
specific languages, or would there be things in between that you should
learn also?
In my instance, I learned programming back in the days of Pascal (true OOP
Programming), COBOL, FORTRAN 77, RPG II/400, and QBasic. I'm just now
getting back into the programming scene, and am starting out with Visual
Basic. And, for the college program I selected, it's going to be at least
two semesters before I get into a Visual Basic course.
Thanks for the information, in advance.
Patrick.
Patrick Dickey. E-mail: pd1ckey43(removeThis)@msn.com
You wrote on Sat, 6 Nov 2004 01:38:56 -0000:
d> VB .NET is as complicated as C++. Be prepared for a few semesters
d> of hard work. One source of information is msdn.microsoft.com,
d> though the VB6 Programmer's Guide was much more step by step
d> sort of thing, i.e very methodical. I am not sure the VB7 walkthroughs,
d> as they are called now, give you all that you need, maybe someone
d> will comment as well.
Ok, I've read all of the posts in this thread, and have a couple of
questions. Since, some of us are actually 'newbies'. Are there any links
to information on the CLR that are written for 'laymen'? Also, for a
newbie, since that's what the thread was originally intended, would you
suggest starting out learning about the .NET Framework then moving on to the
specific languages, or would there be things in between that you should
learn also?
In my instance, I learned programming back in the days of Pascal (true OOP
Programming), COBOL, FORTRAN 77, RPG II/400, and QBasic. I'm just now
getting back into the programming scene, and am starting out with Visual
Basic. And, for the college program I selected, it's going to be at least
two semesters before I get into a Visual Basic course.
Thanks for the information, in advance.
Patrick.
Patrick Dickey. E-mail: pd1ckey43(removeThis)@msn.com
M
Mick Doherty
The thread owner has already said he knows how to program the basics. The
In that case you could well be right. If the basics of programming are
already understood and the programmer wants to learn more about applying
their knowledge to .net then the CLR may well be a good place to start, but
I can't really comment on that since I haven't looked at it. I do try to
work within managed code though.
There's actually a lot of information in the MSDN library for VS.net that
can be installed along with VS. That might be one place to start looking.
In that case you could well be right. If the basics of programming are
already understood and the programmer wants to learn more about applying
their knowledge to .net then the CLR may well be a good place to start, but
I can't really comment on that since I haven't looked at it. I do try to
work within managed code though.
There's actually a lot of information in the MSDN library for VS.net that
can be installed along with VS. That might be one place to start looking.
M
Mick Doherty
And besides all of that; Who needs brakes if they dont have an engine?Soap box derby racers maybe...
If you don't have brakes then you're going to have a nasty Crash, which is
something we, as programmers, really do not want.
I suppose, in that sense, brakes could be compared to Error Handling.
If you don't have brakes then you're going to have a nasty Crash, which is
something we, as programmers, really do not want.
I suppose, in that sense, brakes could be compared to Error Handling.
S
Scott M.
"I haven't seen any of the previous content of this thread, ..."
Then you really should have gone back and read it before you posted, because
what you say here is pretty much what the OP is saying and all the replies
thus far have been explanations of why the OP is wrong (and why what you
have stated is wrong as well).
"Mick Doherty"
Then you really should have gone back and read it before you posted, because
what you say here is pretty much what the OP is saying and all the replies
thus far have been explanations of why the OP is wrong (and why what you
have stated is wrong as well).
"Mick Doherty"
D
dinny
O.k., good discussion. I think I'd better stick to programming
and leave the philosofy to others
ciao
and leave the philosofy to others
ciao
S
Scott M.
LOL - Every time you make another post, it become clearer and clearer that
you don't have the slightest idea what you are talking about. It's not
worth my time to comment on how everything written below is inaccurate.
you don't have the slightest idea what you are talking about. It's not
worth my time to comment on how everything written below is inaccurate.
S
Scott M.
Hi Patrick,
I'll give you my advice as the owner of an IT training company and someone
who has many years of successful experience teaching many different
products/technologies and have been teaching .NET since early betas....
MS built .NET so that the language you use would be secondary to the
functionality of the software you write. The choice of language is now
simply a choice of preference. If you prefer VB.NET (because you like the
syntax or have previous VB experience), the going the VB.NET route would
probably be the shortest learning curve. You may want to consider C# as it
has syntax similar to C and Java and is becoming very popular (could be a
good thing to have on the old resume).
You should PICK a language first, but as you sit down to learn to write that
language, you'll not only need to learn the language elements (variables &
data types, loops, decision making code, etc.), but you'll simultaneously
want to be learning how that code is being processed internally by the
Common Language Runtime (CLR). I think you'll find that any book written to
teach any of the .NET languages, starts out with a discussion of the .NET
Framework before it takes the learner into writing code for that specific
language.
There are MANY online resources for learning about the framework. I would
suggest http://msdn.microsoft.com as a good starting place.
Good luck!
I'll give you my advice as the owner of an IT training company and someone
who has many years of successful experience teaching many different
products/technologies and have been teaching .NET since early betas....
MS built .NET so that the language you use would be secondary to the
functionality of the software you write. The choice of language is now
simply a choice of preference. If you prefer VB.NET (because you like the
syntax or have previous VB experience), the going the VB.NET route would
probably be the shortest learning curve. You may want to consider C# as it
has syntax similar to C and Java and is becoming very popular (could be a
good thing to have on the old resume).
You should PICK a language first, but as you sit down to learn to write that
language, you'll not only need to learn the language elements (variables &
data types, loops, decision making code, etc.), but you'll simultaneously
want to be learning how that code is being processed internally by the
Common Language Runtime (CLR). I think you'll find that any book written to
teach any of the .NET languages, starts out with a discussion of the .NET
Framework before it takes the learner into writing code for that specific
language.
There are MANY online resources for learning about the framework. I would
suggest http://msdn.microsoft.com as a good starting place.
Good luck!
D
dinny
....which is why I suggested to leave these comments to others. However,
remember that opinions are personal, you cannot proove or disproove
them, only time will tell.
S
Scott M.
Doesn't sound like what you wrote was an opinion. Sounds like you believe
them to be facts (which they are not). And, if they are opinions, you'd be
wise to keep them to yourself since they clearly tell us that you have no
idea what you are talking about.
Hey, here's an opinion: Hot things are really really cold when you touch
them. Would you like to try to prove me wrong?
them to be facts (which they are not). And, if they are opinions, you'd be
wise to keep them to yourself since they clearly tell us that you have no
idea what you are talking about.
Hey, here's an opinion: Hot things are really really cold when you touch
them. Would you like to try to prove me wrong?
C
Cor Ligthert
Scott,
In my opinion is the lack in this thread that not is told how deep somebody
should learn something, when you now read your message you can get the idea
that learning of everything except VBNet is important.
I agree with you that it can be important to understand how VBNet does his
processing. I disagree with you that learning the CLR in depth can be the
solution to learn VBNet. what now comes more or less from your message.
It has to be in my opinion step by step
By instance however the steps can be completly different and this in
completly incomplete
The language concept
The IDE
The operators and value types
Classes and objects
Late and early binding
Building
Executing (and in this part or the previous is the CLR is involved)
Code optimalization can only be done when you understand more or less the
building and executing. Therefore you need as well the knowledge that it is
done with the CLR, what I agree, however as well all other suspects of
building a program.
I find this by instance a good source for it.
http://samples.gotdotnet.com/quickstart/
Just my thought, what I assume you do not disagree in its context.
Cor
In my opinion is the lack in this thread that not is told how deep somebody
should learn something, when you now read your message you can get the idea
that learning of everything except VBNet is important.
I agree with you that it can be important to understand how VBNet does his
processing. I disagree with you that learning the CLR in depth can be the
solution to learn VBNet. what now comes more or less from your message.
It has to be in my opinion step by step
By instance however the steps can be completly different and this in
completly incomplete
The language concept
The IDE
The operators and value types
Classes and objects
Late and early binding
Building
Executing (and in this part or the previous is the CLR is involved)
Code optimalization can only be done when you understand more or less the
building and executing. Therefore you need as well the knowledge that it is
done with the CLR, what I agree, however as well all other suspects of
building a program.
I find this by instance a good source for it.
http://samples.gotdotnet.com/quickstart/
Just my thought, what I assume you do not disagree in its context.
Cor
Scott M. said:
G
g
I don't have suggestions for the right book, but I have a link:
http://giuciao.altervista.org/free_books.html
http://giuciao.altervista.org/free_books.html
C
Cor Ligthert
Richard,
Thank you for pointing me on this, I do this more, and do you know what is
even more crazy. Aspect is in my natural language exactly the same as in
English.
Cor
Thank you for pointing me on this, I do this more, and do you know what is
even more crazy. Aspect is in my natural language exactly the same as in
English.
Cor
Richard Myers said:
Lol. I realise english is probably not your first language Cor but thats
classic.
Ive written more than a few suspect programs myself over the last few
years.
Maybe that in itself is the best answer of all concerning this thread.
Make mistakes. Its generally the best way to learn and ive yet to learn
anything without making at least one of them.
"3 Cheers 4 suspect programs!"
Hip hip......
Richard
