Basic Motherboard Upgrade Advice?

[Susan]

I have an EPoX EP-8K7A motherboard with an AMD Athlon running at around 1.1
GHz. I recently upgraded the graphics to a GeForce 6800 with AGP8X and
128MB DDR. I've confirmed with EPoX though that the mb does not support
AGP8X and 99% of the time the initial cold boot cycle hangs never reaching
the Desktop. 99.9% of the time the second boot works fine. Sometimes the
mouse freezes. EPoX thinks this is why the lack of AGP8X support is
manifesting itself. Games all seem to otherwise play fine.

If I were to upgrade the motherboard now is my timing right or should I sit
it out another six months which would be easy enough to do maybe?

Should I bail out of AMD and return to Intel with something bigger and
better?

I don't feel I have any need to spend my last dollar for the latest and
greatest and fastest, but would like to get things back in line and running
faster--mb, cpu, and RAM no doubt.

Any ideas on what direction to point me? Thanks much. I haven't worked my
own system up for years now so I don't know the best spots to start the
searching and thinking.

 

[techie]

If I were to upgrade the motherboard now is my timing right or should I sit

it out another six months which would be easy enough to do maybe?

Maybe not a bad idea. Word around the campfire is BTX will make ATX
obsolete. More info is available at http://www.formfactors.org/.
Wait around to see what shakes loose.

--
If it's spam, it's a scam! Don't do business with net-abusers.
http://mbdynip.dyndns.org/html/mboard/

alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt mini-FAQ available at:
ftp://rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet-by-group/alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt/

 

[ModeratelyConfused]

I have an EPoX EP-8K7A motherboard with an AMD Athlon running at around 1.1
GHz. I recently upgraded the graphics to a GeForce 6800 with AGP8X and
128MB DDR. I've confirmed with EPoX though that the mb does not support
AGP8X and 99% of the time the initial cold boot cycle hangs never reaching
the Desktop. 99.9% of the time the second boot works fine. Sometimes the
mouse freezes. EPoX thinks this is why the lack of AGP8X support is
manifesting itself. Games all seem to otherwise play fine.

If I were to upgrade the motherboard now is my timing right or should I sit
it out another six months which would be easy enough to do maybe?

Should I bail out of AMD and return to Intel with something bigger and
better?

I don't feel I have any need to spend my last dollar for the latest and
greatest and fastest, but would like to get things back in line and running
faster--mb, cpu, and RAM no doubt.

Any ideas on what direction to point me? Thanks much. I haven't worked my
own system up for years now so I don't know the best spots to start the
searching and thinking.

I'd say if your happy with having to boot twice, than leave it the way it
is. If your not happy having to boot twice, why deal with the problem for 6
months waiting for something better to come out? You'll just be stuck in an
endless cycle of waiting.

MC

 

[JAD]

I don't think your PSu is up to the needs of the Graphics card

 

[Dave C.]

Maybe not a bad idea. Word around the campfire is BTX will make ATX
obsolete. More info is available at http://www.formfactors.org/.
Wait around to see what shakes loose.

You've been hanging out at the wrong campfire. BTX is a scam which intel is
trying to foist off on the all-too-gullible public. So far at least, very
few people have bought into it, thank goodness. There is NOTHING in BTX
that can't be easily incorporated into ATX. A new form factor is not
needed. -Dave

 

[Dave C.]

I don't think your PSu is up to the needs of the Graphics card

I think her mainboard is supplying too much voltage to the graphics card. I
hope she replaces that motherboard before it frys her new video card. But
you could be right about the PSU, also. -Dave

 

[JAD]

Now, as ATX and its closest cousins begin to show its age from the advent of
new technologies like Serial ATA and PCI Express, a new form factor is seen
as a need by many companies and Intel has the answer - it's called Balanced
Technology eXtended (BTX). BTX, in its basic principle design, is very
similar to that of ATX, but there are a slew of changes that can and will be
utilized to show that it has the potential to improve the system as
a whole in terms of acoustics and heat dissipation.

keyword 'potential'

http://www.tweaktown.com/document.php?dType=article&dId=611

 

[Dave C.]

I have an EPoX EP-8K7A motherboard with an AMD Athlon running at around 1.1
GHz. I recently upgraded the graphics to a GeForce 6800 with AGP8X and
128MB DDR. I've confirmed with EPoX though that the mb does not support
AGP8X and 99% of the time the initial cold boot cycle hangs never reaching
the Desktop. 99.9% of the time the second boot works fine. Sometimes the
mouse freezes. EPoX thinks this is why the lack of AGP8X support is
manifesting itself. Games all seem to otherwise play fine.

If I were to upgrade the motherboard now is my timing right or should I
sit
it out another six months which would be easy enough to do maybe?

Should I bail out of AMD and return to Intel with something bigger and
better?

I don't feel I have any need to spend my last dollar for the latest and
greatest and fastest, but would like to get things back in line and
running
faster--mb, cpu, and RAM no doubt.

Any ideas on what direction to point me? Thanks much. I haven't worked
my
own system up for years now so I don't know the best spots to start the
searching and thinking.

OK, start with this:

http://www.newegg.com/app/viewprodu...0&CMP=OTC-Froogle&description=N82E16813123208

Your current CPU and RAM should work OK on that board, as well as your video
card. When you want more speed, you can pop in a 400FSB processor. When
you want even MORE speed, you can pop in 512MB of DDR400 RAM to replace your
current RAM.

As someone else posted, your symptoms might suggest a power supply that is
too weak. And it's not a good idea to recycle a power supply into a new
system. So REGARDLESS of what your next move is, I'd strongly suggest you
invest in a decent power supply like the following first. -Dave

http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=17-153-006&depa=0

 

[Guest]

I have an EPoX EP-8K7A motherboard with an AMD Athlon running at around 1.1
GHz. I recently upgraded the graphics to a GeForce 6800 with AGP8X and
128MB DDR. I've confirmed with EPoX though that the mb does not support
AGP8X and 99% of the time the initial cold boot cycle hangs never reaching
the Desktop. 99.9% of the time the second boot works fine. Sometimes the
mouse freezes. EPoX thinks this is why the lack of AGP8X support is
manifesting itself. Games all seem to otherwise play fine.

If I were to upgrade the motherboard now is my timing right or should I sit
it out another six months which would be easy enough to do maybe?

Should I bail out of AMD and return to Intel with something bigger and
better?

Initial boot failure is often a sign of a weak power supply, and the
problem may not be inadequate total wattage but inadequate power on one
particular voltage output, either the +5V (if the video card lacks its
own power connector) or +12V (if it has its own power connector). A
check with a voltage meter (any digital model is more than accurate
enough) can reveal this fairly quickly. Personally I wouldn't risk
running video card in the 6800 class if it lacked a power connector
since it could cause the main motherboard power connetor to overheat
(brown marks where the red wires go into the white plastic).

The best thing to do with computers is avoid the cutting edge since it
costs so much more but gives only slightly better performance. And
don't switch to BTX until it becomes the dominate case style, that is,
becomes cheaper than ATX.

 

[Susan]

Good info to work on so far...thanks.

I take it there remain good reasons to stick it out with AMD and not jump
over to Intel which would be more expensive including a CPU.

I hadn't thought of the power supply angle. There may be something to it
since the psu might only be 300 watts and I did add a second hdd and a DVD
burner recently, not to mention the 6800. That's two hdds and 2 CD/DVD
burners.

BTW, since I only use the basic 3 speaker system is there any reason to
using the SoundBlaster Live card over the motherboard onboard sound?
Likewise onboard LAN sounds like it would make sense.

I haven't taken a closer look at the EPoX board or psu recommended yet and
I don't think anyone has suggested anything else. It would be nice to have
some second opinions on these and maybe Tom's Hardware could help. I'm not
trying to go so far with this that I can't decide what to get though. But
I am all for working toward a quieter system--the damn thing is to noisy
even sitting behind the desk off the floor. It is not from the psu though,
which is quiet. I suspect it is the CPU fan--maybe there is a quieter fan
to get?

Thanks for all the help.

 

[Conor]

Maybe not a bad idea. Word around the campfire is BTX will make ATX
obsolete. More info is available at http://www.formfactors.org/.
Wait around to see what shakes loose.

AMD has no plans to jump on the BTX bandwagon which leaves Intel, who
are losing CPU market share, to try and force it through.


--
Conor

Greedo shot first. Greedo ALWAYS shot first. You did not see Solo shoot
first.
It never happened. Never, ever. Not in any version. Remember: Greedo
shot first.

 

[Dave C.]

Now, as ATX and its closest cousins begin to show its age from the advent
of
new technologies like Serial ATA and PCI Express, a new form factor is
seen
as a need by many companies and Intel has the answer - it's called
Balanced
Technology eXtended (BTX). BTX, in its basic principle design, is very
similar to that of ATX, but there are a slew of changes that can and will
be
utilized to show that it has the potential to improve the system
as
a whole in terms of acoustics and heat dissipation.

keyword 'potential'

Yes, and I've reviewed all of those proposed changes in detail. NONE of
them couldn't be implemented into the ATX form factor quite easily. -Dave

 

[Dave C.]

Good info to work on so far...thanks.

I take it there remain good reasons to stick it out with AMD and not jump
over to Intel which would be more expensive including a CPU.

I hadn't thought of the power supply angle. There may be something to it
since the psu might only be 300 watts and I did add a second hdd and a DVD
burner recently, not to mention the 6800. That's two hdds and 2
CD/DVD
burners.

BTW, since I only use the basic 3 speaker system is there any reason to
using the SoundBlaster Live card over the motherboard onboard sound?
Likewise onboard LAN sounds like it would make sense.

I haven't taken a closer look at the EPoX board or psu recommended yet and
I don't think anyone has suggested anything else. It would be nice to
have
some second opinions on these and maybe Tom's Hardware could help. I'm
not
trying to go so far with this that I can't decide what to get though. But
I am all for working toward a quieter system--the damn thing is to noisy
even sitting behind the desk off the floor. It is not from the psu
though,
which is quiet. I suspect it is the CPU fan--maybe there is a quieter fan
to get?

Thanks for all the help.

I recommended the Epox board for a number of reasons. The socket A platform
has a lot of upgrade potential if you are starting with a ~1.1GHz processor.
AFAIK, socket A goes all the way up to 3GHz or so, which would make a
significant improvement in performance on your system. But you COULD jump
straight to a Athlon 64 or even Intel Pentium 4 system, if you want to.
That would give you even better performance, but it'll cost you. To go with
a faster socket A system might make more sense, as you can work on it a
little at a time.

Onboard sound and LAN solutions are pretty decent. There is no need to
upgrade.

The following is a good quiet cooler for socket A . . . either your current
CPU or a faster one, if you decide to upgrade it. -Dave
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=35-150-010&depa=0

 

[Susan]

Yes, and I've reviewed all of those proposed changes in detail. NONE of
them couldn't be implemented into the ATX form factor quite easily. -Dave

Dave, are you being contradictory? If a new form factor (BTX) is needed to
support the proposed changes in a mb then bring it on... Or, were you
saying you reviewed the proposed changes and you see no need for them so
that ATX, since these un-needed changes cannot be integrated into it,
should remain as is?

It doesn't sound like BTX will be ready for me in 6 months. Read on
because I think I need to make a change of some sort now.

Susan

 

[Susan]

I think her mainboard is supplying too much voltage to the graphics card. I
hope she replaces that motherboard before it frys her new video card. But
you could be right about the PSU, also. -Dave

I couldn't find the psu data so I'll have to stand on my head--but I'm not
going to do that just yet because...

I just started playing Half-Life 2 and some of the automatically set
options came out medium and the water reflections were set to simple.
After playing for hours and shutting down for the night it took a long time
and the Desktop graphics was screwed up for a minute until everything
eventually settled down to normal. When I turned up the options that were
set down the in-game graphics totally choked and I couldn't turn the game
off normally but Ctrl-Alt-Del worked, as did Alt-Tab.

I'm thinking (wondering) if this is also a result of trying to use an AGP
8X card on a 4X mb?

Is there really a voltage slot difference between 4X and 8X? That really
could be serious if I am really supplying more voltage then I should to the
6800.

If I wanted to upgrade now and spend over $300 instead of under $100 and go
for 3+ GHz would I be better off in the long run bailing from AMD or not?

That $10 CPU cooler on NewEgg looked great. I bet they make one for a P4
too? And I bet they'd sell the Intel mb, P4, and memory too?

I've been using a nice square style mid-sized aluminum tower by Lian Li.
Do cases really make a noise difference? What is specifically good to look
for in a quiet case?

I haven't bought anything yet but I am getting kind of antsy. I'm tired of
a local friend telling how neat a game is with all the features turned up
and I discover I have to leave some features turned down.

Thanks for the help. I feel like spending some money now...but not the
bleeding-edge please.

Susan

 

[Dave C.]

Dave, are you being contradictory? If a new form factor (BTX) is needed
to
support the proposed changes in a mb then bring it on... Or, were you
saying you reviewed the proposed changes and you see no need for them so
that ATX, since these un-needed changes cannot be integrated into it,
should remain as is?

YES. I've reviewed all the proposed changes in the BTX specification.
Every single one of the proposed changes is so like the current ATX
specification that a new form factor is NOT needed. There is nothing in
"BTX" that can NOT be implemented on (for example) an ATX format
motherboard. Just a couple of examples:

Cooling: Intel wants kind of a wind-tunnel to draw (exterior, supposedly
cool) air over the CPU and Northbridge for BTX. But there are CHEAP ATX
cases available RIGHT NOW that do exactly that. So Intel expects consumers
to replace THEIR WHOLE COMPUTER to accomplish what a ~$20 case can do right
now?!?

Smaller board sizes: Intel says that BTX will allow for smaller mainboard
sizes. How does Intel accomplish this magic? THEY CUT OFF ALL THE
EXPANSION SLOTS for the boards that are smaller than the current MICRO-ATX
boards. Shit, cut off all the expansion slots from an ATX board and your
ATX board will be very small, also. (!)

There are many other changes, such as how traces (electrical paths) in the
mainboard are routed. But considering how often chipsets change, it makes
more sense to leave the routing of traces up to individual hardware (ie
mainboard) manufacturers than to dictate in advance which way to route the
traces. If anything, this could be an anti-competitive move by Intel meant
to lock AMD out of the form factor by making it harder for motherboards to
support AMD chips/chipsets and still conform to "BTX".

All in all, the more you learn about BTX, the more you realize that it's
just a BAD IDEA. -Dave

 

[Susan]

significant improvement in performance on your system. But you COULD jump
straight to a Athlon 64 or even Intel Pentium 4 system, if you want to.
That would give you even better performance, but it'll cost you. To go with
a faster socket A system might make more sense, as you can work on it a
little at a time.

Would Intel give me better performance for the dollar then AMD? If I
wanted to make the jump to 3+ GHz is there something good out there that
will remain good enough for a year or two before the developers start
developing BTX only games?

Onboard sound and LAN solutions are pretty decent. There is no need to
upgrade.

So, I will retire my Live and LAN cards. That should make things less
complicated in the sound and BIOS departments. It would be nice to end up
with a mb this time that really spells out the Chipset/BIOS options. I'm
so tired of that always being such a mystery.

The following is a good quiet cooler for socket A . . . either your current
CPU or a faster one, if you decide to upgrade it. -Dave
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=35-150-010&depa=0

Another cool NewEgg item. I'm going to do my whole upgrade from that
outfit it looks like.

I suspect at this point that I will be carrying over to the new system a
Lian Li aluminum mid-tower, two Maxtor HDDs, a Verbatim CD burner, a Sony
DVD burner, my Samsung SyncMaster 955DF, and of course, my nVidia 6800 AGP
8X with 128 MB DDR.

Susan

 

[Ruel Smith]

I have an EPoX EP-8K7A motherboard with an AMD Athlon running at around
1.1
GHz. I recently upgraded the graphics to a GeForce 6800 with AGP8X and
128MB DDR. I've confirmed with EPoX though that the mb does not support
AGP8X and 99% of the time the initial cold boot cycle hangs never reaching
the Desktop. 99.9% of the time the second boot works fine. Sometimes the
mouse freezes. EPoX thinks this is why the lack of AGP8X support is
manifesting itself. Games all seem to otherwise play fine.

I've installed 8X cards in 4X boards with no problem. I've also installed 4X
cards in 2X boards with no problem. I can't see why lack of 8X support
would cause a problem. The motherboard and card should simply run at either
2X or 4X, whichever the motherboard supports, which should be 4X in your
case.

If I were to upgrade the motherboard now is my timing right or should I
sit it out another six months which would be easy enough to do maybe?

In six months, something even better will still be on the horizon. Jump in
now and get it over with. It's like a dog chasing its tail: It never
catches it. Besides, I doubt there will be anything new and great in 6
months that supports the AGP slot than there is out there now, except if
someone releases boards that have both AGP and PCI-e 16 slots. Who knows?

Should I bail out of AMD and return to Intel with something bigger and
better?

Are you kidding? AMD is on fire and Intel's flame is smoldering. AMD is
definitely the way to go, both for performance and value. The Athlon 64
systems will get about a 20% boost in speed with the release of 64 bit
Windows. Right now, in 32 bit mode, they compete head to head with Intel's
finest.

I don't feel I have any need to spend my last dollar for the latest and
greatest and fastest, but would like to get things back in line and
running faster--mb, cpu, and RAM no doubt.

If you have an 8X card that you want to keep, Socket 939 boards are very
reasonable and they support dual channel DDR. Honestly, the graphics card
better be one you don't ever intend on upgrading because nVidia and ATi
have both announced no new products for AGP after the current generation.

Any ideas on what direction to point me? Thanks much. I haven't worked
my own system up for years now so I don't know the best spots to start the
searching and thinking.

Knowing that you sunk quite a bit of investment in a GeForce 6800 card, I
suggest nice new Athlon 64 Socket 939 board like either the MSI K8N Neo2
Platinum nForce2 Ultra.

http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=241143

You can decide on which Athlon 64 CPU you want, based on your budget. For
memory, let me recommend Corsair Twin X pairs. 1GB should do wonders for
you.

http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=80097-16

Feel free to purchase higher frequency and/or lower latency models if you
plan to overclock your system to its fullest. You'll get more mileage out
of higher frequency RAM than low latency, in my experience.

Some good places to visit for reviews and help are:

www.tomshardware.com
www.ocworkbench.com
www.cdrinfo.com
www.cdfreaks.com
www.xbitlabs.com
www.tweaktown.com
www.sharkyextreme.com
www.motherboards.org
www.hardocp.com
www.cdrlabs.com
www.extremeoverclocking.com
www.hardcoreware.net
www.lostcircuits.com
www.overclockercafe.com
www.hexus.net
www.hardwareanalysis.com
www.anandtech.com
www.amdzone.com
www.amdmb.com
www.octools.com
www.theinquirer.net
www.viaarena.com

Also, look at the OEM sites themselves. My favorites are:

www.corsairmicro.com
www.crucial.com
www.msicomputer.com
usa.asus.com
www.giga-byte.com
www.abit-usa.com

Good luck!

 

[Overlord]

YES. I've reviewed all the proposed changes in the BTX specification.
Every single one of the proposed changes is so like the current ATX
specification that a new form factor is NOT needed. There is nothing in
"BTX" that can NOT be implemented on (for example) an ATX format
motherboard. Just a couple of examples:

Cooling: Intel wants kind of a wind-tunnel to draw (exterior, supposedly
cool) air over the CPU and Northbridge for BTX. But there are CHEAP ATX
cases available RIGHT NOW that do exactly that. So Intel expects consumers
to replace THEIR WHOLE COMPUTER to accomplish what a ~$20 case can do right
now?!?

There are already server 1U form factors that run windtunnels.
And this can already be accomplished with a $3 fan and a piece of dryer
ductwork if anyone really gets anal about it.

Smaller board sizes: Intel says that BTX will allow for smaller mainboard
sizes. How does Intel accomplish this magic? THEY CUT OFF ALL THE
EXPANSION SLOTS for the boards that are smaller than the current MICRO-ATX
boards. Shit, cut off all the expansion slots from an ATX board and your
ATX board will be very small, also. (!)

Intel would mandate that since they're still in a Mhz race. Higher frequency
will eventually force shorter traces but it makes little sense to dump so Many
format changes at one time; DDR2, PCI express, BTX...

There are many other changes, such as how traces (electrical paths) in the
mainboard are routed. But considering how often chipsets change, it makes
more sense to leave the routing of traces up to individual hardware (ie
mainboard) manufacturers than to dictate in advance which way to route the
traces. If anything, this could be an anti-competitive move by Intel meant
to lock AMD out of the form factor by making it harder for motherboards to
support AMD chips/chipsets and still conform to "BTX".

Heh, sounds like the RAM wars all over again. Intel didn't do so hot there...

All in all, the more you learn about BTX, the more you realize that it's
just a BAD IDEA. -Dave

Heard somewhere that the BTX format required the PS being mounted in the
front of the case. Any truth to that? If so, Susan might not even be able to keep
her old case to upgrade.
~~~~~~
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[David Maynard]

YES. I've reviewed all the proposed changes in the BTX specification.
Every single one of the proposed changes is so like the current ATX
specification that a new form factor is NOT needed. There is nothing in
"BTX" that can NOT be implemented on (for example) an ATX format
motherboard. Just a couple of examples:

Cooling: Intel wants kind of a wind-tunnel to draw (exterior, supposedly
cool) air over the CPU and Northbridge for BTX.

The significant change for that purpose is the CPU moved to the front of
the board and then, of course, the mating front area reserved for the air
intake.

The second factor in that 'tunnel' is the reversing of the graphics card
orientation so the GPU cooling is in the same area instead of on the
opposite side, as it is in ATX.

But there are CHEAP ATX
cases available RIGHT NOW that do exactly that.

Really? And how did they move the CPU to the front of the board?

So Intel expects consumers
to replace THEIR WHOLE COMPUTER to accomplish what a ~$20 case can do right
now?!?

No, they don't expect anyone to 'replace their whole computer' just to
'get' BTX. It's just that the next one bought, for whatever reason, is
expected to be BTX since that's what Intel plans the 'new' ones to be.

Smaller board sizes: Intel says that BTX will allow for smaller mainboard
sizes. How does Intel accomplish this magic? THEY CUT OFF ALL THE
EXPANSION SLOTS for the boards that are smaller than the current MICRO-ATX
boards. Shit, cut off all the expansion slots from an ATX board and your
ATX board will be very small, also. (!)

They do not claim this, in general, is 'new' to BTX vs ATX.

They have, however, combined more size factors into the same motherboard
artwork/layout vs the older NLX/ATX split. That means the motherboard
makers can do more form factors without redoing the majority of the artwork.

There are many other changes, such as how traces (electrical paths) in the
mainboard are routed. But considering how often chipsets change, it makes
more sense to leave the routing of traces up to individual hardware (ie
mainboard) manufacturers than to dictate in advance which way to route the
traces.

It don't work that way. For one, Intel couldn't care less about third party
chipsets. Secondly, the chipset makers (Intel, in this case) reference
board is always where a prudent motherboard designer starts. It's just
plain foolish to reinvent the wheel and then get faced with debugging it
when the chipset maker has already solved all those issues to validate the
design.

If anything, this could be an anti-competitive move by Intel meant
to lock AMD out of the form factor by making it harder for motherboards to
support AMD chips/chipsets and still conform to "BTX".

Possibly. Which is fair game. And if it is then there will be an 'ATX vs
BTX' battle added to the mix.

Btw, what is it about BTX that makes it unsuitable for an AMD processor?

All in all, the more you learn about BTX, the more you realize that it's
just a BAD IDEA. -Dave

Rather, it sounds to me more like "the more you look for things to complain
about, rather than what the form factor was made for, the more you confirm
your preconceived notion it's just a BAD IDEA."

That doesn't mean I'm thrilled with it but 'BTX' is only a small piece of
the 'problem' because, after the next year or two, there will be literally
nothing reusable. All 'legacy' devices gone: no ISA cards (already), serial
ports, parallel ports, PS2, etc. SATA will replace IDE and PCI-Express will
replace AGP/PCI. You're complaining about, as you put it, a ~$20 case when
there's not a single AGP/PCI card you'll be able to reuse. And then, just
to make sure it's as painful as possible, all existing software will be
rendered 'obsolete' by 64 bit.