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P

Peo Sjoblom

hgrove > said:
Leo Heuser wrote...

I'm not quite sure, what you mean here, but probably "yes".
..

Then too damn bad 'cause I don't want to be like you.
I believe, that a softer tone would create a more comfortable
and relaxed atmosphere. I, for one, use a lot of time and energy
to get the wording right in my answers to you because I feel,
that the slightest error will result in a poisenous response.
I know, that a typical answer from you to that would be: "Then
don't answer.", and I might do that some day, but I would
greatly prefer the relaxed model.

Ain't gonna happen. If you feel like responding to me, be careful or
just rethink your urges because I have no intention of treating you the
way you want to be treated.

Ain't USENET great! Ain't freedom of speach great! [Yes, it *is* the
freedom to be a jerk, and some of us will strenuously defend that
right.]
[/QUOTE]

Can't help but picturing you having a parent/teacher conference with one of
your kids math teachers,
that would be an interesting sight <g>


--

Regards,

Peo Sjoblom

(No private emails please, for everyone's
benefit keep the discussion in the newsgroup/forum)
 
L

Leo Heuser

hgrove > said:
Leo Heuser wrote...
Harlan Grove wrote...
..

Ain't USENET great! Ain't freedom of speach great! [Yes, it *is* the
freedom to be a jerk, and some of us will strenuously defend that
right.]

Lucky you. You don't have to defend anything at all. Just open your mouth,
and we are convinced.

Yes, "freedom of speach" is great, as long as you remember, that the
concept includes respect for your fellow human beings.

LeoH
 
H

hgrove

Leo Heuser wrote...
...
Yes, "freedom of speach" is great, as long as you remember,
that the concept includes respect for your fellow human beings.

Not quite. It only requires reciprocation. In other words, it require
respect for the other person's rights, not respect for the othe
person. I come from a land in which neo-Nazis have the right to parad
in predominantly Jewish towns, and abhorent as that may be, prescribin
it would be worse, and I guarantee there ain't much respect for othe
persons going around in those situations. The freedom to expres
contempt for others is no less important than the freedom to advocat
brotherly love because as soon as you control or ban the former, th
latter morphs into the freedom to advocate Big Brotherly Love
 
A

Alan Beban

hgrove said:
Ain't USENET great! Ain't freedom of speach great! [Yes, it *is* the
freedom to be a jerk, and some of us will strenuously defend that
right.] . . .It only requires reciprocation. In other words, it
requires respect for the other person's rights, not respect for the
other person. I come from a land in which neo-Nazis have the right to
parade in predominantly Jewish towns, and abhorent as that may be,
prescribing it would be worse, and I guarantee there ain't much
respect >for other persons going around in those situations. The freedom
to >express contempt for others is no less important than the freedom to
advocate brotherly love because as soon as you control or ban the
former, the latter morphs into the freedom to advocate Big Brotherly
Love.
Oh, gag me with a spoon! In the U.S. the "right" of freedom of speech is
simply a citizen's constitutional right to be free from federal and
State infringement. It is specious to claim that it has something to do
with some arrogated "right" to be a nasty s.o.b. in a peer-to-peer
newsgroup.

Alan Beban
Leo Heuser wrote...


I'm not quite sure, what you mean here, but probably "yes".

..

Then too damn bad 'cause I don't want to be like you.

I believe, that a softer tone would create a more comfortable
and relaxed atmosphere. I, for one, use a lot of time and energy
to get the wording right in my answers to you because I feel,
that the slightest error will result in a poisenous response.
I know, that a typical answer from you to that would be: "Then
don't answer.", and I might do that some day, but I would
greatly prefer the relaxed model.


Ain't gonna happen. If you feel like responding to me, be careful or
just rethink your urges because I have no intention of treating you the
way you want to be treated.

Ain't USENET great! Ain't freedom of speach great! [Yes, it *is* the
freedom to be a jerk, and some of us will strenuously defend that
right.]
[/QUOTE]
 
L

Leo Heuser

hgrove > said:
Leo Heuser wrote...
..

Not quite. It only requires reciprocation. In other words, it requires
respect for the other person's rights, not respect for the other
person. I come from a land in which neo-Nazis have the right to parade
in predominantly Jewish towns, and abhorent as that may be, prescribing
it would be worse, and I guarantee there ain't much respect for other
persons going around in those situations. The freedom to express
contempt for others is no less important than the freedom to advocate
brotherly love because as soon as you control or ban the former, the
latter morphs into the freedom to advocate Big Brotherly Love.

I agree with most of the above, but your comparison stinks!

The freedom to express contemt for others (here neo-Nazis) is not
a carte blanche for you to scorn users of the group, whose sole
purpose is to help other users. If you can't see that, then you're more
deranged, than I thought.

LeoH
 
G

Gord Dibben

I don't agree with the use of "prescibing" in place of "proscribing"

Maybe a spell-checker or thesaurus would be of same assistance.

On second thought.........a spell-checker would be of little use if one does
not comprehend the difference in meaning between the two words.

Gord Dibben Excel MVP
 
H

Harlan Grove

Gord Dibben said:
I don't agree with the use of "prescibing" in place of "proscribing"

Maybe a spell-checker or thesaurus would be of same assistance.
....

Spelling checker wouldn't have helped. I goofed. Meant proscribed, but
spelled prescribed correctly. Believe what you want about whether I know the
difference or not, but it's a certainty I don't proofread what I post.
 
H

Harlan Grove

Alan Beban said:
Oh, gag me with a spoon! In the U.S. the "right" of freedom of speech is
simply a citizen's constitutional right to be free from federal and
State infringement. It is specious to claim that it has something to do
with some arrogated "right" to be a nasty s.o.b. in a peer-to-peer
newsgroup.

Right in quotes? You believe it's in some way illusory?

Believe what you want. The right covers being a nasty SOB in public spaces.
Only speach leading to likely harm to others (as in the classic yelling
'Fire' in a crowded theater) is restricted. If Microsoft wants to moderate
their newsgroups, they could. If they don't, then anything goes in the sense
that there's no practical way to restrict what's posted and most of the
nastiness posted isn't actionable under law.

What you seem to mean is that freedom of speach doesn't imply permission to
be nasty. Correct, but neither does it prohibit it. What Leo seems to want
is a code of conduct. It should be obvious by now that I won't comply.
 
A

Alan Beban

Harlan said:
Ain't USENET great! Ain't freedom of speach great! [Yes, it *is* the
freedom to be a jerk, and some of us will strenuously defend that
right.] . . .It only requires reciprocation. In other words, it
requires respect for the other person's rights, not respect for the
other person. I come from a land in which neo-Nazis have the right to
parade in predominantly Jewish towns, and abhorent as that may be,
prescribing it would be worse, and I guarantee there ain't much
respect >for other persons going around in those situations. The freedom
to >express contempt for others is no less important than the freedom to
advocate brotherly love because as soon as you control or ban the
former, the latter morphs into the freedom to advocate Big Brotherly
Love.
Right in quotes? You believe it's in some way illusory?

No; just that constitutional freedom of speech doesn't grant you the
right to do or say anything. It simply grants you the right to be free
of governmental interference with most of your speech.
Believe what you want. The right covers being a nasty SOB in public spaces.
Only speach leading to likely harm to others (as in the classic yelling
'Fire' in a crowded theater) is restricted.

A misstatement of the law, but that's a bit off topic.
If Microsoft wants to moderate
their newsgroups, they could. If they don't, then anything goes in the sense
that there's no practical way to restrict what's posted and most of the
nastiness posted isn't actionable under law.

A common confusion between the right to do something and the power to do
something, but that, too, should be the topic of a different
philosophical discussion.
What you seem to mean is that freedom of speach doesn't imply permission to
be nasty. . . .

Yes, partly, but I mean something a bit more; that the effort to paint
your adolescent nastiness as a high-minded defense of the rights of man
is a tad nauseating.

Alan Beban
 
H

Harlan Grove

Alan Beban said:
No; just that constitutional freedom of speech doesn't grant you the
right to do or say anything. It simply grants you the right to be free
of governmental interference with most of your speech.

Semantics! No, it's not a grant of permission to do or say anything.
However, the absence of restrictions *permits* one to do or say anything as
long as one is willing to accept the consequences of doing so. Actually,
this always applies, it's just that freedom of speach means that there would
be no government-imposed consequences.

Now, we seem to have a difference of opinion about the limits of speach.
Your limits seem to be more restrictive than mine. Guess who wins in that
situation?
A misstatement of the law, but that's a bit off topic.

An intentional oversimplification. There are legal consequences of certain
types of speach: slander, defmation, propositioning, lying under oath, lying
to federal agents, and the example above. In some situations, fighting words
would also be against the law, but the chances of imminent coming to blows
from newsgroup posting is sufficiently remote as for that aspect of the law
not to apply. Hateful speach is protected.
A common confusion between the right to do something and the power to do
something, but that, too, should be the topic of a different
philosophical discussion.

Microsoft lacks the *power* to moderate its newsgroups? Perhaps it lacks the
interest to do so, but it has both the right and power to do so if it
chartered these newsgroups.
Yes, partly, but I mean something a bit more; that the effort to paint
your adolescent nastiness as a high-minded defense of the rights of man
is a tad nauseating.

Believe what you want to believe. Freedom of speach, in part, allows one to
express oneself in pure adolescent nastiness if one feels like doing so.
Freedom of speach doesn't mean much if it has to be nice & polite all the
time.
 
A

Alan Beban

Harlan said:
. . .



Microsoft lacks the *power* to moderate its newsgroups? Perhaps it lacks the
interest to do so, but it has both the right and power to do so if it
chartered these newsgroups.
No, the confusion I was referring to is your confusion about your power
to be nasty and your right to be nasty.
What you seem to mean is that freedom of speech doesn't imply permission
to be nasty. . . .

Believe what you want to believe. Freedom of speech, in part, allows one to
express oneself in pure adolescent nastiness if one feels like doing so.
Freedom of speech doesn't mean much if it has to be nice & polite all the
time.
Your pretentiousness is delightful.

Alan Beban
 
H

Harlan Grove

Alan Beban said:
No, the confusion I was referring to is your confusion about your power
to be nasty and your right to be nasty.
....

So I don't have the right to be nasty? Obviously I have the power to be. So
where is it written that the right to nastiness doesn't exist?
Your pretentiousness is delightful.

Glad you're taking such pleasure in this thread.
 
A

Alan Beban

Harlan said:
...

So I don't have the right to be nasty? Obviously I have the power to be. So
where is it written that the right to nastiness doesn't exist?
Where is it written that it does?

I'm not inclined (nor equipped, for that matter) to take this
philosophical diversion all that far, but for starters I would suggest
that the nature of rights is such that if a right exists a correlative
duty exists; if one has a right, someone owes that person a
corresponding duty. It's difficult for me to conceive that any person or
entity has an obligation to ensure that you achieve your nastiness.

Alan Beban
 
H

Harlan Grove

Alan Beban said:
Where is it written that it does?

Apparently you're unfamiliar with the common law foundation of the country
in which you live and may have been raised. That not explicitly forbidden is
allowed, at least legally speaking.
I'm not inclined (nor equipped, for that matter) to take this
philosophical diversion all that far, but for starters I would suggest
that the nature of rights is such that if a right exists a correlative
duty exists; if one has a right, someone owes that person a
corresponding duty. It's difficult for me to conceive that any person or
entity has an obligation to ensure that you achieve your nastiness.

Guess what? You're wrong. There is no quid pro quo when it comes to rights.
Time to reread (read?) the Federalist Papers, eh?
 
A

Alan Beban

Harlan said:
Apparently you're unfamiliar with the common law foundation of the country
in which you live and may have been raised. That not explicitly forbidden is
allowed, at least legally speaking.
Guess what? You're wrong. There is no quid pro quo when it comes to rights.
Time to reread (read?) the Federalist Papers, eh?

What's that got to do with anything? Neither I nor anyone else in this
thread has suggested that you don't have a *legal* right to be nasty,
indiscriminately untruthful, mean to children, cruel to domestic
animals, racially prejudiced, etc. (all within legal limits). But the
fact that you are free from legal constraint does not imply that you
have a *right* to be those things.

Alan Beban
 
H

Harlan Grove

Alan Beban said:
. . . But the
fact that you are free from legal constraint does not imply that you
have a *right* to be those things.

OK, there's no positive right to be nasty. Actually this has been a
digression from my last response to Leo. I should have limited that response
to saying nothing more than rights or freedoms exist outside any presumed
context of duties within society or respect for others.
 

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