ATX system start-up problem

L

Lenny D.

I have an older ATX system that runs fine once started but has a curious
problem upon start-up dependant upon climate. Whenever the cold weather hits
and it's cooler (~65 deg.) inside than during the summertime (~77Deg.), the
system will almost always 'freeze' upon start-up requiring a second start.
It will then start and load the OS and function normally.

Running Windose XP Pro on a ASUS A7N8X motherboard. I researched these
symptoms last winter and decided of the two choices of the motherboard or
the PSU, I chose to replace the PSU. I was running an Antec Tru330 330W. I
replaced it with another Antec -
Earthwatts 380. Now that winter is here the symptom is repeating itself.

Casual inspection of the motherboard shows no capacitor irregularities,
so....bad MB or another bad PSU? MB choices are pitifully limited.

Comments welcome!

Lenny D.
 
G

Grinder

Lenny said:
I have an older ATX system that runs fine once started but has a curious
problem upon start-up dependant upon climate. Whenever the cold weather hits
and it's cooler (~65 deg.) inside than during the summertime (~77Deg.), the
system will almost always 'freeze' upon start-up requiring a second start.
It will then start and load the OS and function normally.

Running Windose XP Pro on a ASUS A7N8X motherboard. I researched these
symptoms last winter and decided of the two choices of the motherboard or
the PSU, I chose to replace the PSU. I was running an Antec Tru330 330W. I
replaced it with another Antec -
Earthwatts 380. Now that winter is here the symptom is repeating itself.

Casual inspection of the motherboard shows no capacitor irregularities,
so....bad MB or another bad PSU? MB choices are pitifully limited.

Comments welcome!

I would try reseating your memory modules. Giving them, and their
sockets, a shot of electrical cleaner probably won't hurt anything
either. All of this, of course, after the machine has been turned off
*and* unplugged.
 
G

Grinder

Lenny said:
I have an older ATX system that runs fine once started but has a curious
problem upon start-up dependant upon climate. Whenever the cold weather hits
and it's cooler (~65 deg.) inside than during the summertime (~77Deg.), the
system will almost always 'freeze' upon start-up requiring a second start.
It will then start and load the OS and function normally.

Running Windose XP Pro on a ASUS A7N8X motherboard. I researched these
symptoms last winter and decided of the two choices of the motherboard or
the PSU, I chose to replace the PSU. I was running an Antec Tru330 330W. I
replaced it with another Antec -
Earthwatts 380. Now that winter is here the symptom is repeating itself.

Casual inspection of the motherboard shows no capacitor irregularities,
so....bad MB or another bad PSU? MB choices are pitifully limited.

Comments welcome!

Oh, should have added to the last message: You might just have some
flaky RAM and the correlation you're making is purely coincidental.
 
L

Lenny D.

Grinder said:
I would try reseating your memory modules. Giving them, and their
sockets, a shot of electrical cleaner probably won't hurt anything either.
All of this, of course, after the machine has been turned off *and*
unplugged.

Thanks, but done that already (several times)!
 
L

Lenny D.

kony said:
How far into the POST or boot sequence does it get when it
freezes, and is it always at the same point?

It will either beep then load up normally, or if I don't get a beep, it will
just sit there, sometimes with the 'busy light' on, sometimes in the middle
of the memory check, sometimes not even that far. Then I shut it off and
start over. When it will get to the beep, it will successfully load.
If you can, get it into the bios menus and check the
voltages there, or of course with a multimeter would be even
better during the moment after it's powered on, seeing if
the PSU rails get up to correct voltage range quickly.

I can try that...I've even tried leaving the PC 'live' so the 3.3v rail(?)
will constantly have power but it makes no difference. I have a master strip
that I turn off which removes all power to the PC and the PSU - which
resulted in my having to prematurely replace the battery.
I had an A7N8X that something similar happened to...
actually still have it, need to rip a couple custom
heatsinks off to reuse them some day.

Either the southbridge itself or a part very near it (I
never found which part was to blame) seems to have a cracked
solder joint, after pulling my hair out trying to figure out
why it began failing to post more and more often, I
eventually got out a hair dryer and by isolating where the
airstream hit the board I narrowed it down to heat applied
on the southbridge. A visual inspection didn't show
anything so I just abandoned it, reused the CPU in another
socket A board and upgraded everything in that system.

I have suspected this very thing, being familiar with circuit boards in
other non-PC applications and am suspicious of the temperature differential
symptom being affected by a cold solder joint, crack or something similiar.
Finding it tests the patience of Job. It never fails in the warmer months,
only when the weather turns sharply cold.
That might not be the same problem you're having though,
colder temps can cause circuit board cracks to go
intermittent, as well as other contacts though this isn't
much of a temperature change. It can also degrade the
performance of capacitors, the PSU was a prime suspect but
with it replaced the motherboard or video card capacitors
would be two of the next suspects. Bad capacitors that
don't work well enough when too cold will not necessarily
look vented or different in any way.

I am also wondering if maybe the PSU isn't quite big enough. I'm running a
floppy, 3 HDs, a DVD and CD burner, a modest video card - e-GeForce 6200,
recently replaced, and a video capture card and sound card. 1g. of Kingston
memory (swapped around the slots).
Of course it's also possible the PSU has gone bad, it
happens. What is it's 5V current rating? A7N8X,
particularly with the later generations of skt. A CPUs, a
bit of overclocking, and/or a semi-powerful gaming video
card can require a PSU with a fairly high 5V current rating
(moreso than most anything before or after it in the PC
market). If the PSU was borderline at supplying enough 5V
current and the lower temperature degrades it a little, that
could in theory make the difference.

Another interesting point, Asus Probe says 4.757v with intermittant drops to
4.73v. The old PSU gave the same reading on the 5v rail, whereas the most
noticeable difference is in the 12v rail. This new PSU reads 12.35v with a
rare blip up. The old PSU would never read above 11.75v.
Another possiblity is the battery is running low, some
boards and IIRC, that one, won't POST at all once the
battery gets too low though that doesn't seem directly
related to temperature when it had trouble a year ago then
worked fine for that whole year till now.

Thought of that, too, and replaced the battery sometime a little over a year
ago because it died and I was losing my settings. But everything has to be
suspect with this scenario.
Unless you get lucky, the most obvious thing to do is just
swap out parts till you find which it was.

Yes; refer to the patience of Job part!
 
L

Lenny D.

kony said:
As for replacing the board if it came to that, I would
consider upgrading it at this point unless you have a
valuable video card installed. At places like
http://www.newegg.com you can get a AM2 board and low-end
dual core processor for under $85 delivered (possibly after
a rebate) and since the DDR2 memory those use is dirt cheap
right now, about 4GB of it for under $40. Most of the lower
cost mainboards I'm thinking of have integrated video that's
sufficient for non-gaming uses or even 2 to 3+ year old
games if using the higher tiered nVidia or ATI northbridges.

My hunch tells me this is the direction I should go. I wasn't aware I could
upgrade these components (and for so little!) on this machine.
Please feel free to suggest specific recommendations for a MOBO, and
processor. At Newegg I see the memory sticks you mentioned (I built over
half my original system through them - I'm currently using a 1.8g Athlon
processor). And as mentioned in my original post my video card is just an
e-GeForce 6200 which would probably be outdone by an onboard video
processor.
Thanks!

Lenny D.-
 
L

Lenny D.

Lenny D. said:
My hunch tells me this is the direction I should go. I wasn't aware I
could upgrade these components (and for so little!) on this machine.
Please feel free to suggest specific recommendations for a MOBO, and
processor. At Newegg I see the memory sticks you mentioned (I built over
half my original system through them - I'm currently using a 1.8g Athlon
processor). And as mentioned in my original post my video card is just an
e-GeForce 6200 which would probably be outdone by an onboard video
processor.
Thanks!

Lenny D.-

And, as another point of interest, I am running IDE HDs.
 
L

Lenny D.

kony said:
That could be an issue, many boards now have only one
channel, 2 x PATA/ATAPI support. For someone who wants to
keep running several older PATA drives instead of buying a
larger new one, I generally recommend a PCI controller card,
non-raid type if an ATAPI (optical typically) drive needs to
be attached to it.

Beyond this, it's a very broad topic since everyone will
have differences in opinion what is worth a few bucks more
and what isn't. You need your own set of requirements for
features, and at a place like newegg (since they have a
great filtering feature for products), you can then narrow
down what suits your requirements.

Generally when I mentioned the low cost boards I was
thinking of a few Foxconn AM2, some require a rebate to be
at the sub-$60 price point. I was thinking of nvidia 8200
or better and ATI 780G for better integrated video features
on a budget. If HD movie playback on integrated video, or
gaming on it, isn't a concern then your choices are much
broader as the base chipset tech is the same besides these
benefits on some boards, in that case you might care far
more about HDMI, DVI video output for an LCD at higher
resolutions, or other features a particular board may or may
not have.

Generally speaking, the A7N8X was a reasonably good option
at the time, but any typical low-end board would have about
as good an audio, free integrated video, better SATA
performance. Mainly what an inexpensive replacement may
lack is as many overclocking options, and especially with
mATX boards, fewer PCI slots, and of course the move to
PCI-E slot for a video card if you ever chose to add one for
gaming or addt'l functionality.

It's really about budget, what to choose in a mATX board.
Some will claim things like solid capacitors are important,
and while they do provide longer life, any decent board
without them will last longer than it needed to unless the
user is overclocking significantly. Some may want dual
video outputs, especially at least one DVI which is
something newegg's pictures are good at indicating. Newegg
may not have the lowest price on everything but they excell
at providing information to narrow down the choices then
with a few models in mind a comparison at other 'sites is
possible.

Thanks, again, for your insight. I am already running a PCI controller card
for my DVD and CD burners on my A7N8X system and would need to use it again
(the PCI controller card). So i would need only one IDE cable slot to run
the other two HDs.

I was looking at the ASUS boards since I had successful and satisfactory
operation until this start-up problem arose. I am willing to spend a few
extra bucks for sensible performance (north and south bridges), and i
understand about shopping for particilar personal features. I might like to
reuse my (new enough) video card, although it's not a necessity. I would
also look at the video outputs, an LCD monitor is in my future. I agree
about Newegg, and prudent shopping can yield great prices with them.

mATX = micro? I can use that in my ATX case?

I'm considering this:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131324

or, as a package deal, this:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ComboDealDetails.aspx?ItemList=Combo.153493

or, this:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ComboDealDetails.aspx?ItemList=Combo.153505

I will look at the Foxconn boards you mentioned, I am unfamiliar with their
products other than to know they exist.

Comments appreciated!

Lenny D.
 

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