ASP.NET

J

Jim Buyens

Jim Cheshire said:
I think the Web Forms designer team at Microsoft would probably disagree
here. While VS.NET does fall short of FrontPage in the area of table
editing and in some other areas, for the most part, the VS.NET designer is
pretty darned good. Whidbey is a HUGE step forward in this area and will
likely dwarf FrontPage in producing good HTML code.

The other branch of this thread illustrates a sure trend of Web
designers sticking with tools like FrontPage, Dreamweaver, and ASP.

Some of this is learning curve, and some is a factor of hosting
services not installing the .NET Framework on their servers. But the
biggest reason for Web designers avoiding .NET seems to be that:

o Visual Studio doesn't have the WYSIWYG design tools that
Web designers want.
o WYSIWYG design tools like FrontPage and Dreamweaver don't
have the coding, testing, and deployment tools that make
ASP.NET easy to use.

If Microsoft fixes this in Whidbey, great. Personally, I find it hard
to visualize the Visual Studio team bringing, artistically-oriented,
non-programming designers into their usability labs and reworking the
product based on that input. But maybe they are, and if so I
congratulate them.

Otherwise, they and the Office team need to get more .NET features
into FrontPage.

Jim Buyens
Microsoft FrontPage MVP
http://www.interlacken.com
Author of:
*----------------------------------------------------
|\---------------------------------------------------
|| Microsoft Office FrontPage 2003 Inside Out
||---------------------------------------------------
|| Web Database Development Step by Step .NET Edition
|| Microsoft FrontPage Version 2002 Inside Out
|| Faster Smarter Beginning Programming
|| (All from Microsoft Press)
|/---------------------------------------------------
*----------------------------------------------------
 
C

chris leeds

I just want to do a FrontPage include page into an aspx page and I can't
seem to. I can't seem to find a solid answer as to whether it's possible in
fp 2003 or if there's some sort of trick or hack.
I think if VS was a little more user friendly the FrontPage users who are
really motivated will use it in tandem. It's what we've been doing with
photo editors and menu making utilities and the like for a while anyway.
Maybe I'm on the dense side (I can't seem to learn flash) but every time
I've opened VS it's like alien technology to me.
</IMHO>
Jim Buyens said:
I think the Web Forms designer team at Microsoft would probably disagree
here. While VS.NET does fall short of FrontPage in the area of table
editing and in some other areas, for the most part, the VS.NET designer is
pretty darned good. Whidbey is a HUGE step forward in this area and will
likely dwarf FrontPage in producing good HTML code.

The other branch of this thread illustrates a sure trend of Web
designers sticking with tools like FrontPage, Dreamweaver, and ASP.

Some of this is learning curve, and some is a factor of hosting
services not installing the .NET Framework on their servers. But the
biggest reason for Web designers avoiding .NET seems to be that:

o Visual Studio doesn't have the WYSIWYG design tools that
Web designers want.
o WYSIWYG design tools like FrontPage and Dreamweaver don't
have the coding, testing, and deployment tools that make
ASP.NET easy to use.

If Microsoft fixes this in Whidbey, great. Personally, I find it hard
to visualize the Visual Studio team bringing, artistically-oriented,
non-programming designers into their usability labs and reworking the
product based on that input. But maybe they are, and if so I
congratulate them.

Otherwise, they and the Office team need to get more .NET features
into FrontPage.

Jim Buyens
Microsoft FrontPage MVP
http://www.interlacken.com
Author of:
*----------------------------------------------------
|\---------------------------------------------------
|| Microsoft Office FrontPage 2003 Inside Out
||---------------------------------------------------
|| Web Database Development Step by Step .NET Edition
|| Microsoft FrontPage Version 2002 Inside Out
|| Faster Smarter Beginning Programming
|| (All from Microsoft Press)
|/---------------------------------------------------
*----------------------------------------------------[/QUOTE]
 
J

Jon

Chris,
using includes in aspx pages isn't really the best way to go. You'd probably
want to use a user control. Firstly make your control like this
<%@ control language="vb" %>
' your html

Save with an .ascx extension (eg YourControl.ascx) now on the page(s) you
want to include this content register it at the top of the page
<%@ Register TagPrefix = "Chris" TagName = "YourControl"
Src="controls/YourControl.ascx" %>
then include it
<Chris:YourControl id="TheControl" runat="server" />

Obviously you can use whatever names you like for TagPrefix, TagName and ID

Jon
Microsoft MVP - FP
 
C

chris leeds

I'll try that. I've always liked the fp include because it's nice to see
the stuff in place when working on "regular" asp.
I'm definitely going to try your example.
THANKS!
 
J

Jim Cheshire

Whidbey is a complete departure from existing architecture. Many of the
limitations of VS.NET's designer are because of limitations imposed by
mshtml.dll, the HTML rendering engine used all over the place in Microsoft
software. Whidbey is a complete rewrite of this architecture and includes
some dramatic improvements in the designer.

--
Jim Cheshire
Jimco
http://www.jimcoaddins.com
================================
Author of Special Edition
Using Microsoft Office FrontPage 2003
5 Stars on Amazon and B&N
================================
The opinions expressed by me in the
newsgroups are my own opinions and
are in no way associated with my
employer or any other party. Jimco is
not associated in any way with any other
entity.



Jim Buyens said:
I think the Web Forms designer team at Microsoft would probably disagree
here. While VS.NET does fall short of FrontPage in the area of table
editing and in some other areas, for the most part, the VS.NET designer is
pretty darned good. Whidbey is a HUGE step forward in this area and will
likely dwarf FrontPage in producing good HTML code.

The other branch of this thread illustrates a sure trend of Web
designers sticking with tools like FrontPage, Dreamweaver, and ASP.

Some of this is learning curve, and some is a factor of hosting
services not installing the .NET Framework on their servers. But the
biggest reason for Web designers avoiding .NET seems to be that:

o Visual Studio doesn't have the WYSIWYG design tools that
Web designers want.
o WYSIWYG design tools like FrontPage and Dreamweaver don't
have the coding, testing, and deployment tools that make
ASP.NET easy to use.

If Microsoft fixes this in Whidbey, great. Personally, I find it hard
to visualize the Visual Studio team bringing, artistically-oriented,
non-programming designers into their usability labs and reworking the
product based on that input. But maybe they are, and if so I
congratulate them.

Otherwise, they and the Office team need to get more .NET features
into FrontPage.

Jim Buyens
Microsoft FrontPage MVP
http://www.interlacken.com
Author of:
*----------------------------------------------------
|\---------------------------------------------------
|| Microsoft Office FrontPage 2003 Inside Out
||---------------------------------------------------
|| Web Database Development Step by Step .NET Edition
|| Microsoft FrontPage Version 2002 Inside Out
|| Faster Smarter Beginning Programming
|| (All from Microsoft Press)
|/---------------------------------------------------
*----------------------------------------------------[/QUOTE]
 
C

chris leeds

not to stretch a thread.....
do you have an idea of when Whidbey will be ready for the masses?
 
J

Jim Cheshire

Nope.

--
Jim Cheshire
Jimco
http://www.jimcoaddins.com
================================
Author of Special Edition
Using Microsoft Office FrontPage 2003
5 Stars on Amazon and B&N
================================
The opinions expressed by me in the
newsgroups are my own opinions and
are in no way associated with my
employer or any other party. Jimco is
not associated in any way with any other
entity.
 
J

Jim Buyens

chris leeds said:
I just want to do a FrontPage include page into an aspx page and I can't
seem to. I can't seem to find a solid answer as to whether it's possible in
fp 2003 or if there's some sort of trick or hack.
I think if VS was a little more user friendly the FrontPage users who are
really motivated will use it in tandem. It's what we've been doing with
photo editors and menu making utilities and the like for a while anyway.
Maybe I'm on the dense side (I can't seem to learn flash) but every time
I've opened VS it's like alien technology to me.
</IMHO>

I agree with Jon: the best way of simulating an Include Page component
or an SSI is to use a Web User Control.

A Web User Control has an .aspx filename extension and begins with a
tag like:
<%@ Control Language="vb" %>

Then, you write any HTML you want. This is normally body-type HTML: no
<html> tag, no <head> tag, no <body> tag.

You can add code to a Web User Control just as you would to a normal
ASP.NET page. Here's an example:

<%@ Control Language="vb" %>
<script runat="server">
Sub Page_Load(sender as object, e as eventargs)
imgLogo.src = Request.ApplicationPath & "/images/" & _
Path.GetFileName(imgLogo.Src)
End Sub
</script>
<table width="100%">
<tr>
<td><img src="/images/mylogo.gif" id="imgLogo"
runat="server"></td>
<td><script>document.write(document.title);</script></td>
</tr>
</table>

The Page_Load subroutine runs whenever the Web User Control loads.

Path.GetFileName(imgLogo.Src) retrieves the name of the img file
specified in the src= attribute of the <img> tag. The properties of
this tag are accessible to server side code because the tag contains
runat="server" and id= attributes.

After retrieving the image filename, the code prepends it with the
local path to the current application and the subfolder "images". So,
the browser will always see a path like /myapp/images/mylogo.gif.

The reason for adjusting the image path is that many different pages
(in many different subfolders) might display the Web User Control, and
the path in the HTML would only be correct in a percentage of them.
So, the control figures out the correct path at run time.

I mention this not so much to illustrate path adjustment, but to
illustrate how Web User Controls can run code and customize their
results. This is something that Include Page components and normal
SSI's simply cannot do.

To use the Web User Control, you add a @Register directive like the
following at the top of the page.

<%@ Register TagPrefix="uc1" TagName="banner" Src="banner.ascx" %>

Then, you add a tag like this where you want the control to appear.

<uc1:banner id="Banner1" runat="server"></uc1:banner>

Visual Studio automates much of the work involved in creating and
using Web User Controls.

o To create the Web User Control, you just select
Add Web User Control from the Project menu.

o To add a Web User Control to a page, you drag it out of
Solution Explorer and drop it onto your Web page.

Take a look around my Web site, http://www,interlacken.com. All of
the following are Web User Controls:

o The page banner.
o The page footer.
o The red, rounded-corner topic banners.
o The "Books" box that appears at the right of each page in
in the Web Resource Center, the Tips & Techniques Center,
and the Download Center.
o The Featured Products box that also appears at the right of
each page in these centers.

In the case of the last two, program code is providing an add rotator
effect.

Jim Buyens
Microsoft FrontPage MVP
http://www.interlacken.com
Author of:
*----------------------------------------------------
|\---------------------------------------------------
|| Microsoft Office FrontPage 2003 Inside Out
||---------------------------------------------------
|| Web Database Development Step by Step .NET Edition
|| Microsoft FrontPage Version 2002 Inside Out
|| Faster Smarter Beginning Programming
|| (All from Microsoft Press)
|/---------------------------------------------------
*----------------------------------------------------
 
J

Jon

Jim Cheshire said:
Nope.

--
Jim Cheshire
Jimco
http://www.jimcoaddins.com
================================
Author of Special Edition
Using Microsoft Office FrontPage 2003
5 Stars on Amazon and B&N
================================
The opinions expressed by me in the
newsgroups are my own opinions and
are in no way associated with my
employer or any other party. Jimco is
not associated in any way with any other
entity.
 
B

Bob Lehmann

<.02>
"User Friendly" is in the eye of the beholder. I find Visual Studio to be
very friendly.

The thing to keep in mind is that Visual Studio is more a development
environment than a web design tool. If anything, I would think that
FrontPage should be enhanced to integrate better with the Visual Studio
tools, since its strength is page design.
</.02>

Bob Lehmann
 
J

Jim Buyens

Jim Cheshire said:
Whidbey is a complete departure from existing architecture. Many of the
limitations of VS.NET's designer are because of limitations imposed by
mshtml.dll, the HTML rendering engine used all over the place in Microsoft
software. Whidbey is a complete rewrite of this architecture and includes
some dramatic improvements in the designer.

That sounds promising, although no guarantee of success. Also, Whidbey
is still quite a while out.

It would be very cool if the same Web form designer, the same CSS
editor, the same picture editors, and other components could plug into
both FrontPage and Visual Studio. But the people I've spoken with seem
fairly pessimistic about this. The developer group and the office
group are on very different tracks.

Jim Buyens
Microsoft FrontPage MVP
http://www.interlacken.com
Author of:
*----------------------------------------------------
|\---------------------------------------------------
|| Microsoft Office FrontPage 2003 Inside Out
||---------------------------------------------------
|| Web Database Development Step by Step .NET Edition
|| Microsoft FrontPage Version 2002 Inside Out
|| Faster Smarter Beginning Programming
|| (All from Microsoft Press)
|/---------------------------------------------------
*----------------------------------------------------
 
C

chris leeds

thanks Jim.
I've been making an effort whenever I need a new item to try to find one in
..net. stuff like form mailers and the like. it's not very comfortable to do
something "new" for me. I guess I'll have to buy another one of your books.
;-)
 
J

Jim Cheshire

Boy, that's the truth. The Office devs and the VS.NET devs are in
completely different worlds.

--
Jim Cheshire
Jimco
http://www.jimcoaddins.com
================================
Author of Special Edition
Using Microsoft Office FrontPage 2003
5 Stars on Amazon and B&N
================================
The opinions expressed by me in the
newsgroups are my own opinions and
are in no way associated with my
employer or any other party. Jimco is
not associated in any way with any other
entity.
 
K

Kevin Spencer

Hi Linda,
Sounds like the future may be dim for non-programmers of Webs, then. Is
your

Not at all. Programmers will have their place, but you don't want to pay a
programmer's wage for layout design, which is still an important part of web
application development. It's just that web development is becoming more
compartmentalized. Technologies such as CSS, XML, and XSLT enable the
functionality of web pages to be separated nearly completely from the layout
and design. If you have no programming aspirations, study up on CSS and
XSLT.

--
HTH,
Kevin Spencer
..Net Developer
Microsoft MVP
Big things are made up
of lots of little things.
 

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