Are disk bearings really harmed by spin-up?

J

Jack Tyler

I have seen various comments like "we leave our servers running 24/7
because powering up a hard drive causes more wear than leaving it
running." I think it's mostly laziness and apathy about conserving
energy. The TiVo forums discuss it a lot because a standard TiVo HD
runs all the time, buffering 30 minutes of whatever channel it's left
on.

Do IT people who leave servers running 24/7 ever have much choice of
NOT leaving them on 24/7? If not, how can they make scientific
comparisons of drive-bearing life? As long as the head isn't moving,
bearing life seems to be the main concern. On a home PC left on all day
it's far less likely that the drive will be doing anything but spinning
at high RPM for no real reason.

I've heard similar claims that the "shock" of turning on a light bulb
is worse than leaving it on all the time. Usually those comments came
as a way to excuse energy consumption after a debate on the merits of
waste. In reality, bulbs have a finite hours rating and will burn out
faster the longer they are left on, as long as they aren't flipped on
and off as torture. CFL bulbs (w/ballast) don't like to be switched on
and off quickly, but I can't imagine them burning out faster if you
only cycle on/off once in 10 minutes or so.

Would anyone claim that car wheel bearings get as much wear when you
pull out of the driveway vs. a 500 mile nonstop trip? In that case, the
"spin up" would be when you first move the car after sitting. What
exactly causes the "big shock" when a hard drive spins up? The heat
generated from constant spinning would seem to far outweigh it. Why
does Windows have a "Turn off hard disks" feature in Power options if
not to reduce bearing wear?

If anyone has thorough technical articles on hard drive wear, please
post. Specifically, what is so torturous about spinning up the drive,
and how can that brief cycle be quantified, damage-wise against
constant spinning with higher heat levels?

Thanks.

JT
 
H

Howard

I have seen various comments like "we leave our servers running 24/7
because powering up a hard drive causes more wear than leaving it
running." I think it's mostly laziness and apathy about conserving
energy. The TiVo forums discuss it a lot because a standard TiVo HD
runs all the time, buffering 30 minutes of whatever channel it's left
on.

Do IT people who leave servers running 24/7 ever have much choice of
NOT leaving them on 24/7? If not, how can they make scientific
comparisons of drive-bearing life? As long as the head isn't moving,
bearing life seems to be the main concern. On a home PC left on all day
it's far less likely that the drive will be doing anything but spinning
at high RPM for no real reason.

I've heard similar claims that the "shock" of turning on a light bulb
is worse than leaving it on all the time. Usually those comments came
as a way to excuse energy consumption after a debate on the merits of
waste. In reality, bulbs have a finite hours rating and will burn out
faster the longer they are left on, as long as they aren't flipped on
and off as torture. CFL bulbs (w/ballast) don't like to be switched on
and off quickly, but I can't imagine them burning out faster if you
only cycle on/off once in 10 minutes or so.

Would anyone claim that car wheel bearings get as much wear when you
pull out of the driveway vs. a 500 mile nonstop trip? In that case, the
"spin up" would be when you first move the car after sitting. What
exactly causes the "big shock" when a hard drive spins up? The heat
generated from constant spinning would seem to far outweigh it. Why
does Windows have a "Turn off hard disks" feature in Power options if
not to reduce bearing wear?

If anyone has thorough technical articles on hard drive wear, please
post. Specifically, what is so torturous about spinning up the drive,
and how can that brief cycle be quantified, damage-wise against
constant spinning with higher heat levels?

You posted from google groups...so what did the archive say about the past
discussions on this topic?
 
R

Rod Speed

More than continuing to spin, yes.

There's a reason for the number of start stop
cycles specified in the hard drive datasheets.

I have seen various comments like "we leave our
servers running 24/7 because powering up a hard
drive causes more wear than leaving it running."

That is correct.
I think it's mostly laziness
Nope.

and apathy about conserving energy.

Yep, what a hard drive uses is a fart in the bath, 5W or so.
The TiVo forums discuss it a lot because a standard TiVo HD runs
all the time, buffering 30 minutes of whatever channel it's left on.
Do IT people who leave servers running 24/7 ever
have much choice of NOT leaving them on 24/7?

Yes, the drives can be configured to spin down on inactivity.
If not, how can they make scientific
comparisons of drive-bearing life?

There's a reason for the limit to start stop cycles
in the hard drive manufacturer's data sheets.
As long as the head isn't moving, bearing
life seems to be the main concern.

You dont get many hard drives bearings failing anymore.
On a home PC left on all day it's far less likely that the drive will
be doing anything but spinning at high RPM for no real reason.
Sure.

I've heard similar claims that the "shock" of turning
on a light bulb is worse than leaving it on all the time.

That can be overstated, but there certainly is a considerable turnon
shock with incandescent bulbs. Not relevant to hard drives tho.
Usually those comments came as a way to excuse energy
consumption after a debate on the merits of waste.
Sure.

In reality, bulbs have a finite hours rating and
will burn out faster the longer they are left on,
as long as they aren't flipped on and off as torture.

Sure, but irrelevant to hard drives.
CFL bulbs (w/ballast) don't like to be switched on and
off quickly, but I can't imagine them burning out faster
if you> only cycle on/off once in 10 minutes or so.

Yes, the turnon effect is completely different to incandescent bulbs.
Would anyone claim that car wheel bearings get as much wear
when you pull out of the driveway vs. a 500 mile nonstop trip?

Completely different to hard drives.
In that case, the "spin up" would be
when you first move the car after sitting.

And that is completely different to a hard drive.
What exactly causes the "big shock" when a hard drive spins up?

Basically the spinup torque.
The heat generated from constant
spinning would seem to far outweigh it.

Anyone with a clue ensures that the drive doesnt get hot.
Why does Windows have a "Turn off hard disks"
feature in Power options if not to reduce bearing wear?

To reduce power used, just like with monitors and motherboards.
If anyone has thorough technical articles
on hard drive wear, please post.

The start stop cycles specified in the hard drive datasheets
are the most imporant numbers. They can be exceeded by
a startup every hour surprisingly quickly.
Specifically, what is so torturous about spinning up the drive,
and how can that brief cycle be quantified, damage-wise
against constant spinning with higher heat levels?

Thermal cycling also isnt good for most electronic devices.
 
C

ChangeGuy

my observations of the newer ata drives in the last year was they succumb
easily to heat than constant booting. I had a server that run 24/7 for weeks
and some of the drives needed to be replaced every few months. Much faster
than other computers that shutdown in the same environment. It could also be
because of the cheap maxtor plus 8 the raid was using, hard to tell but keep
those drives cool I say.
 
R

Randy S.

Sigh, is there a reason to bring this up again, particularly when you
don't really seem to be adding anything? Comments in-line:
I have seen various comments like "we leave our servers running 24/7
because powering up a hard drive causes more wear than leaving it
running." I think it's mostly laziness and apathy about conserving
energy.

It has nothing to do with conserving power *or* laziness. Servers run
24/7 because they are *used* 24/7. I am not going to tell users that
their data is unavailable because the "servers are conserving power
right now". It *is* possible to have the drives spin down when not in
use, but a busy server is rarely going to do that due to the amt of
actual use *and* background tasks ( a lot of servers do significant
maintenance tasks like backup and optimization when idle).
The TiVo forums discuss it a lot because a standard TiVo HD
runs all the time, buffering 30 minutes of whatever channel it's left
on.

It shows up on these forums because people freak out that Tivo's normal
mode of operation (always running) will shorten the life of the HDD.
They usually freak out after a hard drive fails (which is a bit late!).
The truth is that one way or the other it doesn't make *that* much
difference either way if a hard drive runs all the time or not. Hard
drives fail, and we just have to deal with it until a reasonable
alternative is available (like solid state memory) and affordable.
Light bulbs fail all the time, and people don't freak about those! (well
most don't anyway).
Do IT people who leave servers running 24/7 ever have much choice of
NOT leaving them on 24/7? If not, how can they make scientific
comparisons of drive-bearing life? As long as the head isn't moving,
bearing life seems to be the main concern. On a home PC left on all day
it's far less likely that the drive will be doing anything but spinning
at high RPM for no real reason.

Why is it up to the IT people to do the scientific comparisons, isn't
that up to the manufacturer? As an IT person who *also* used to design
bearings (ball, journal *and* roller) there *are* both wear and startup
issues. Most catastrophic failures occur at startup unless there is an
unrelated cause of failure (like an overheat condition, overloading or
oil starvation).
I've heard similar claims that the "shock" of turning on a light bulb
is worse than leaving it on all the time. Usually those comments came
as a way to excuse energy consumption after a debate on the merits of
waste. In reality, bulbs have a finite hours rating and will burn out
faster the longer they are left on, as long as they aren't flipped on
and off as torture. CFL bulbs (w/ballast) don't like to be switched on
and off quickly, but I can't imagine them burning out faster if you
only cycle on/off once in 10 minutes or so.

Comparing light bulb mechanics to bearing mechanics is a completely
inaccurate comparison. Light bulbs relay on electrical resistance to
operate, there are no moving parts, lubrication, centripetal force
issues, etc. About the only things the two share in common are heat
issues (for vastly different reasons). I often compare hard drive
failure (which I will not necessarily agree is mostly caused by bearing
failure, but that is the most predictable cause) to light bulb failure
only because the failure probability curve versus time is similar. This
is not because the failure mechanism is the same, but because both oftem
fail due to very minor variances in tolerances and manufacture, probably
variances so small they wouldn't be measurable. The end result is that
a large element of failure seems to be random.
Would anyone claim that car wheel bearings get as much wear when you
pull out of the driveway vs. a 500 mile nonstop trip? In that case, the
"spin up" would be when you first move the car after sitting.

I have no doubt that a car wheel bearing *does* receive more wear in the
time it takes to "spin" up then in the same amount of time spinning
normally. But this is a low stress application, and the amount of
additional wear would be extremely small. When designing bearings for
cars and most land (or sea) based applications, factors of safety are
pretty high, particularly in a low heat application such as a car wheel
bearing. In highly weight-sensitive applications (like jet-engines)
those factors of safety are much slimmer and start-up wear is a much
bigger issue.
What
exactly causes the "big shock" when a hard drive spins up? The heat
generated from constant spinning would seem to far outweigh it.

Careful, you're showing your inexperience. If you are really asking the
question, don't draw incorrect conclusions from assuming an answer.
Startup wear is large for four reasons:

- Lubricant is not distributed evenly. If it's a pressurized
lubrication system (like in a car), the lubricant system usually isn't
at pressure yet (since it's usually powered by the engine itself). If
it's a passive system (like a wheel bearing or HDD that's simply packed
with grease) then the lubricant has likely "settled" to the bottom and
has to be "spun" up and distributed evenly by centripetal force.

- Lubricant is not yet at operating temperature. Most lubricants
(including most passively used greases and car oil) is designed to be
used at engine operating temperature. At startup it is cold and
therefore does not work as well as it is designed to, and it may be too
viscous to even flow to all the places that need to be lubricated.

- Lubricant is not at pressure. Lubrication in bearings works by
forming a "pressure wedge" between two moving parts. The pressure is
formed by the centripetal force between the bearing element (or inner
race in the case of a journal bearing) against the outer race of the
bearing. Normally the lubricant would just be pushed out of the way,
and this is what happens in a non- or slow moving part, but at speed it
cannot flow fast enough, so it becomes pressurized (in a "wedge shape"
because it is trying to flow "away" from the bearing element) and
seperates the two parts (because liquids only compress minimally). Non-
or slow moving parts will not be able to form an effective pressure wedge.

- Part tolerences are designed at operating temperature, not at resting
temperature. Different metals and materials expand at different rates
due to temperature, so their fits will differ depending on the thermal
enviroments. Tolerences are typically designed to operate optimally at
the prevalant operating temperature, and since lubricant films are
highly dependent on those tolerences for getting up to pressure,
variations in fit can affect them greatly.

For all of the above reasons, bearings (or at least a portion of them)
will be in actual unlubricated contact at startup, and a lot of wear can
occur. Once the bearing is spun up, the bearings will only be in
contact with lubricant.
Why
does Windows have a "Turn off hard disks" feature in Power options if
not to reduce bearing wear?

OMG! How about to reduce power? Also, noise is a factor.
If anyone has thorough technical articles on hard drive wear, please
post. Specifically, what is so torturous about spinning up the drive,
and how can that brief cycle be quantified, damage-wise against
constant spinning with higher heat levels?

How about just someone with a technical knowledge of how bearings work?
I believe I've demonstrated how bearing startup is an extreme event in
bearing life, and bearings in drives are no different than any others
(most use ball bearings I believe). Many drives are now using
hydrostatic bearings, which will eliminate *some* of the low pressure
problem at startup depending on how the pressure is supplied.

How can it be quantified? That's not that simple since bearing failure
is sudden and not a progressive process. Bearings fail when the
lubricant film fails. When does the film fail? It can happen at
various times for various reasons, including lubricant starvation, loss
of viscosity (or even boiling!) due to overheating, manufacturing
defects causing protrusions that project *through* or disrupt the film,
overloading, or shock (which is just a form of overload). But startup
is the only time in a bearings life that it is *designed* to be
unprotected by a lubricant film. Balanced against that, it's also
usually the lowest load point.

Heat issues are a red herring as long as they are at design levels.
Overheat is a different problem, but they shouldn't be operated that way
anyway, either intermittantly or long-term.

But this is mostly an academic exercise. HDD bearings are not under
high load or low factors of safety. They can handle high numbers of
start/stop events. But neither does a running drive use a lot of power
(a good argument can be made that they use a lot in *aggregate* so
should be minimized), so manufacturers typically use a drive in whatever
a manner works best for them. Tivo doesn't run their drives
continuously to minimize start/stop cycles, they run them that way
because they're always *using* them. I would never tell someone not to
shut their computer off to save their hard drive (unless it was already
failing, of course), it just doesn't make enough difference. If it was
significant, we would likely already know the answer as to which one was
better.

Randy S.
 
R

Randy S.

Many drives are now using
hydrostatic bearings, which will eliminate *some* of the low pressure
problem at startup depending on how the pressure is supplied.

BTW, just to be clear, hydrostatic bearings are used in HDD's to reduce
noise, not to extend bearing life.

Randy S.
 
J

JC

Randy,

Thank you for your excellent explanations. I will save your post to
give to the next person I deal with that wants to argue this question.
 
J

Jeff Rife

Randy S. ([email protected]) wrote in alt.video.ptv.tivo:
[nice analysis snipped]

For all of the above reasons, bearings (or at least a portion of them)
will be in actual unlubricated contact at startup, and a lot of wear can
occur. Once the bearing is spun up, the bearings will only be in
contact with lubricant.

A good comparison for hard drive failure is case fan failure. I now set
all my fans to never completely stop moving because it was obvious that
spinning them down (which they did more than hard drives...even when the PC
is "running" they would often shut down) caused them to fail faster.
Although the failure isn't as critical, the noise bugs me a lot.
 
R

Randy S.

A good comparison for hard drive failure is case fan failure. I now set
all my fans to never completely stop moving because it was obvious that
spinning them down (which they did more than hard drives...even when the PC
is "running" they would often shut down) caused them to fail faster.
Although the failure isn't as critical, the noise bugs me a lot.

I'd actually think the case fan is a more "pure" example of bearing
failure, since hard drives have more possible causes of failure
(electronics failure, head crash, etc) than case fans (which are
basically limited to bearing failure or motor burnout). But if we
assume that the most frequent cause of HDD failure is bearing failure
(which I have no idea if it is the case), then the parallel is pretty good.

Randy S.
 
A

andrewunix

Fri, 13 May 2005 08:17:45 -0400, (e-mail address removed) suggested:
:
: Why is it up to the IT people to do the scientific comparisons, isn't
: that up to the manufacturer? As an IT person who *also* used to design
: bearings (ball, journal *and* roller) there *are* both wear and startup
: issues. Most catastrophic failures occur at startup unless there is an
: unrelated cause of failure (like an overheat condition, overloading or
: oil starvation).

One trick that the systems guy where I work has told me about is that
before he deploys a server, he frequently powers it on and off over the
course of a week or two to try to get any marginal hard disks to fail (and
then replace them) before it goes into live use.
 
J

J. Clarke

Jack said:
I have seen various comments like "we leave our servers running 24/7
because powering up a hard drive causes more wear than leaving it
running."

This is the conventional wisdom. And it's not just disks. Thermal cycling
used to be a serious problem with computers--that's why memory sockets have
latches now. On an original IBM PC that had been running for a couple of
years, sometimes the memory chips would walk completely out of the socket
due to repeated thermal cycling.
I think it's mostly laziness and apathy about conserving
energy.

Shutting down a large server farm is not something to be done lightly.
Bringing it down and back up in an orderly fashion might take more than one
night.
The TiVo forums discuss it a lot because a standard TiVo HD
runs all the time, buffering 30 minutes of whatever channel it's left
on.

Yep, and they seem to last and last.
Do IT people who leave servers running 24/7 ever have much choice of
NOT leaving them on 24/7?

Depends on the circumstances.
If not, how can they make scientific
comparisons of drive-bearing life?

The viewpoint is generally based on experience with other mechanical
devices.
As long as the head isn't moving,
bearing life seems to be the main concern.

Even if the head is moving, bearing life is the main concern as far as
_wear_ goes. The heads run on an air bearing--the wear is negligible.

However disk seldom die of bearing failure--generally the failure is a crash
or an electronics failure.
On a home PC left on all day
it's far less likely that the drive will be doing anything but spinning
at high RPM for no real reason.

Maybe on _your_ system.
I've heard similar claims that the "shock" of turning on a light bulb
is worse than leaving it on all the time. Usually those comments came
as a way to excuse energy consumption after a debate on the merits of
waste. In reality, bulbs have a finite hours rating and will burn out
faster the longer they are left on, as long as they aren't flipped on
and off as torture. CFL bulbs (w/ballast) don't like to be switched on
and off quickly, but I can't imagine them burning out faster if you
only cycle on/off once in 10 minutes or so.

You ever notice how light bulbs generally blow when you turn them on, not
when they are just sitting there giving off light? It's called "thermal
shock" and it's a real phenomenon.
Would anyone claim that car wheel bearings get as much wear when you
pull out of the driveway vs. a 500 mile nonstop trip? In that case, the
"spin up" would be when you first move the car after sitting. What
exactly causes the "big shock" when a hard drive spins up? The heat
generated from constant spinning would seem to far outweigh it. Why
does Windows have a "Turn off hard disks" feature in Power options if
not to reduce bearing wear?

If anyone has thorough technical articles on hard drive wear, please
post. Specifically, what is so torturous about spinning up the drive,
and how can that brief cycle be quantified, damage-wise against
constant spinning with higher heat levels?

The basic problem with any bearing is that at rest the mass supported by the
bearing causes the rotating assembly to sink though the lubricant until it
is touching something solid. When the device of whatever kind is started,
there is a period before the lubricating film reestablishes itself in which
there is metal-to-metal contact. Thus most of the wear occurs at startup.
This is exacerbated by the fact that the lubricant is cold and thus does
not flow well.

The "heat generated from constant spinning", assuming that the drive is not
being operated outside its rated temperature range, has negligible effect
on the durability of the mechanical components--it would have more effect
on the electronics but the electronic components are outside the capsule.
 
J

J. Clarke

Randy said:
BTW, just to be clear, hydrostatic bearings are used in HDD's to reduce
noise, not to extend bearing life.

Actually, fluid dynamic bearings (they are not "hydrostatic") have sliding
contact at startup, where a ball or roller will normally have rolling
contact unless the lubricant is very stiff. So the FDB will have more wear
at startup.
 
J

Joe Smith

Jack said:
Would anyone claim that car wheel bearings get as much wear when you
pull out of the driveway vs. a 500 mile nonstop trip?

Would anyone claim that crankshaft bearings get as much wear when you
start up a cold engine vs. driving for a couple of hours? Yes.
 
R

Randy S.

J. Clarke said:
Randy S. wrote:




Actually, fluid dynamic bearings (they are not "hydrostatic") have sliding
contact at startup, where a ball or roller will normally have rolling
contact unless the lubricant is very stiff. So the FDB will have more wear
at startup.

Whoops, for some reason I was thinking "hydrostatic" (which exist but
aren't used in hard disks) instead of Fluid dynamic. Thanks John!

Randy S.
 
D

DanR

J. Clarke said:
This is the conventional wisdom. And it's not just disks. Thermal cycling
used to be a serious problem with computers--that's why memory sockets have
latches now. On an original IBM PC that had been running for a couple of
years, sometimes the memory chips would walk completely out of the socket
due to repeated thermal cycling.


Shutting down a large server farm is not something to be done lightly.
Bringing it down and back up in an orderly fashion might take more than one
night.


Yep, and they seem to last and last.


Depends on the circumstances.


The viewpoint is generally based on experience with other mechanical
devices.


Even if the head is moving, bearing life is the main concern as far as
_wear_ goes. The heads run on an air bearing--the wear is negligible.

However disk seldom die of bearing failure--generally the failure is a crash
or an electronics failure.


Maybe on _your_ system.


You ever notice how light bulbs generally blow when you turn them on, not
when they are just sitting there giving off light? It's called "thermal
shock" and it's a real phenomenon.


The basic problem with any bearing is that at rest the mass supported by the
bearing causes the rotating assembly to sink though the lubricant until it
is touching something solid. When the device of whatever kind is started,
there is a period before the lubricating film reestablishes itself in which
there is metal-to-metal contact. Thus most of the wear occurs at startup.
This is exacerbated by the fact that the lubricant is cold and thus does
not flow well.

The "heat generated from constant spinning", assuming that the drive is not
being operated outside its rated temperature range, has negligible effect
on the durability of the mechanical components--it would have more effect
on the electronics but the electronic components are outside the capsule.

John... sounds like you know what you're talking about. So my question is: In my
Windows power scheme I have for years selected "Turn Off Hard Disks = after 3
hours". I have never noticed this actually happening. Sounds like you would
suggest turning this option off.
Possibly I don't notice the drive spinning down is that I seem to have fairly
constant network activity. I have a DU meter that monitors the network and it
pops up more often than every 3 hours. So maybe my 2 drives are not "turning
off".
 
J

Jack Tyler

Joe said:
Would anyone claim that crankshaft bearings get as much wear when you
start up a cold engine vs. driving for a couple of hours? Yes.

I understand lubrication phenomena but I'm trying to find a way to
quantify startup wear vs. constant running wear. Maybe it's just hard
to quantify without a lot of guesswork.

JT
 
J

Jack Tyler

Howard said:
You posted from google groups...so what did the archive say about the past
discussions on this topic?

Lots of hearsay in past discussions. This thread has been a lot more
informative.

JT
 
J

Jack Tyler

Rod said:
There's a reason for the number of start stop
cycles specified in the hard drive datasheets.

I think I need to find and read those datasheets. If you have any quick
links, please post.

JT
 
J

Jack Tyler

Rod said:
The start stop cycles specified in the hard drive datasheets
are the most imporant numbers. They can be exceeded by
a startup every hour surprisingly quickly.

http://www.pcguide.com/ref/hdd/perf/qual/specCycles-c.html

Well, I'm reading that start/stop cycles are typically in the 30k to
50k range, and that's something I didn't know. I wasn't looking for the
right keywords. One boot per day on a home PC would allow for 109 years
at 40k cycles, which means other components must wear out faster than
bearings! This is the info I needed.

JT
 

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